I have had really variable results with my Icom VHF. Sometimes line of sight of even a mile is too much due to mountains or ant mounds or I don't know what getting in the way. I have radioed a kayak carrier, who I could see, who was across the Fjord from my party of kayakers, looking for us to pick us up, and he couldn't pick us up on his boat radio, which was tuned to the hailing channel. This type of thing isn't at all uncommon. What I'm wondering is if cell phones, outside of urban areas, are getting to be a reasonable alternative to VHF radios. I know that they are not too feasible in remote areas, but what about more popular places to paddle that are popular destinations? To answer your question, Dave, I don't leave my VHF on to monitor a call channel because my batteries are never going to last out the trip. It is only motor launches that may be able to intercept your mayday and transfer your need to others, unless you are fortunate enough to be within line of sight of a repeater on top of a ridge or mountain. But perhaps I am wrong and others on this list have had good results summoning aid with their VHF radios. Cheers, Don W. -----Original Message----- From: Dave Kruger <dkruger_at_pacifier.com> To: sullivaned_at_pop.mts.kpnw.org <sullivaned_at_pop.mts.kpnw.org> Cc: paddlewise <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Date: Tuesday, December 01, 1998 10:32 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] VHF >Edward Sullivan wrote: >> >> In Barkley Sound in October I started thinking a VHF might be a nice >> thing to have, as there was nobody around to see my aerial flares. My >> ham buddy tells me VHF is line-of-sight range. [snip] >> >> I know it's a hail mary kinda gadget, but do I have a good chance of >> getting heard when my Caribou has burned down to the waterline? Assuming >> I'm out there. > >I'm glad you raised the question, because the answer is a rather large "depends." > >"Depends?" On what, you ask? > >I think it depends on whether or not other *sea kayakers* leave their VHF's on, and tuned to Channel >16, the universal hailing/emergency channel. Face it -- in places like Barkley Sound, the nearest >craft is a sea kayak, not a fishing vessel or a sailboat (and there are a lot of sea kayaks in >Barkley Sound!). Yeah, sure, it would be better to reach the Coast Guard, or a motor vessel, but we >are probably the best "safety net" in places like Barkley Sound. Same's true many other places I >paddle -- but not everywhere. > >I believe the Canadian CG has a sizable antenna on a ridge overlooking Barkley Sound, so they >*might* pick up your weeny 5 Watt transmission from your handheld -- but that depends on good >line-of-sight to their antenna -- which is at least 5 - 8 miles off, depending on where you are on >Barkley Sound. Eight miles is getting close to the *practical* range for a 5 Watt handheld >(assuming the standard rubber ducky antenna), though I have now and then gotten 8 miles >beach-to-beach, handheld to handheld, a tougher shot. > >OTOH, I have *regularly* made successful transmissions to other handheld VHF's in the hands of sea >kayakers, also in their yaks, in the water, over a distance of 2 - 3 miles, sometimes *over an >intervening ridge.* In Barkley Sound, that range probably includes a half dozen sea kayakers. > >Now, if they only had their VHF's ON. And, I bet they DON'T, because most sea kayakers (in my >experience) only turn the VHF on to listen to the weather, yak briefly at other yakkers, or to send >out a Mayday. In other words, most of us are so selfish that we don't want to be part of the >"safety net" to help others -- but we DO expect somebody else to hear us, and respond. > >How about it? Do you leave your VHF on, tuned to 16 (and whatever "call" channel fits your area) >while paddling? Bet you don't. > >I'll collect responses and summarize the results -- no one needs to confess to the Paddlewise throng >they are selfish. I promise to maintain confidentiality. Just email me. > >-- >Dave Kruger >Astoria, OR >-- >P.S. Most of my own paddling is in the Lower Columbia River, where I monitor 16 and 13 (shipping >traffic). I think down here I could raise a pleasure craft, duck hunter, or maybe a pilot on a >freighter, but not a sea kayaker. Not many of us around, and the area is too huge for me to expect >other sea kayakers to form a "safety net." I also am able to monitor current conditions by >listening to the barge traffic and freighters exchange info. I leave it on, down here, but have yet >to hear another sea kayaker asking for help. Have heard lots of power boaters requesting aid from >the CG, however. >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ >*************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Don Watson wrote: > I have had really variable results with my Icom VHF. Sometimes line of sight > of even a mile is too much due to mountains or ant mounds or I don't know > what getting in the way. I have radioed a kayak carrier, who I could see, > who was across the Fjord from my party of kayakers, looking for us to pick > us up, and he couldn't pick us up on his boat radio, which was tuned to the > hailing channel. This type of thing isn't at all uncommon. I have never experienced this, although I don't have enough attempts at contacts which "should" happen, and did, to be even 90% certain I would "never" have a problem such as the one you describe. I believe under the worst conditions, the handheld should be good for at least 2 - 3 miles, seated yakker to seated yakker. To the whip on your outfitter's boat, from the beach, you should get about 8-10 miles, barring obstructions. VHF *is* flaky, with multiple path interference probably being the most likely culprit in the situation you describe. Another possibility (this actually happened to me in Canada) is that the pickup boat was using an INTERNATIONAL configuration for the channel, and you were using a US configuration for the same channel (or, its A/B variant). When this happened to me, I could hear the other guy, but he could not hear me. I believe I was listening in simplex (same freq TX/RX), but he was listening in duplex (same freq for TX, but different RX freq -- the lashup used for ship-shore radiotelephone communications). > What I'm wondering is if cell phones, outside of urban areas, are getting to > be a reasonable alternative to VHF radios. I know that they are not too > feasible in remote areas, but what about more popular places to paddle that > are popular destinations? Sometimes, yes. There must be a cell phone tower within line of sight. In Barkley Sound, even though it is "remote", cell phones work. Problems: 1. short battery life. 2. not designed for a marine (wet) environment. 3. the CG can not use RDF to locate you by your TX signal. OTOH, anywhere near any populous area, there WILL be a cell phone tower, and your call, directed straight to the SAR people, will get a faster response than a (relayed) Mayday, most likely. > To answer your question, Dave, I don't leave my VHF on to monitor a call > channel because my batteries are never going to last out the trip. Know the problem. That's why I went to alkaline power on my radios. (I used to fly RC airplanes, and learned to distrust/hate Ni-Cads!) The rechargeable units do not have enough TX time to be useful on an overnight trip, let alone a week, especially if you leave the radio on in RX mode for monitoring. I'll score you as a "no." Thanks for the informative reply. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Folks, "line of sight" with reference to VHF-Fm marine radios is not line of sight if mountains, ant hills or anything is in the way. Line of sight is line of sight period. These radios are limited to almost line of sight, not line of sight. Using 25W radios adn 4' antennas on two boats I get a range of about 7-8 miles in our coastal marshes dotted with islands and trees, etc. Move these onto open water adn the range jumps to about 12-15 niles. This is with 25 W now, not hand held 5W. To "monitor" anything iwth a handheld is admitting you do not want to use it in an emergency. You will not have enough battery power. Transmitting uses a lot more than listening. If you want to use it in case, then turn it off and conserve battery power for that time when you need it. If want your cake and eat it too, carry extra batteries. Cell phones. Texas and Louisiana are infested with offshore oil and gas rigs. There is a whole industry of offshore cells. Many rigs have the cell antennas on the rigs. This network is rather expensive to roam on at about $3.00 per minute. But! with a cell phone you can call anywhere in the world. The small boat world in our area carry VHF and cells. While canoeing, I carry both also. The cell can make the call and the VHF can pick up the NOAA weather radio almost 80 miles away. When not in use, I carry my VHF in my truck adn monitor ch 16. I live right along the coast and have listened to about 5 or 6 live Coast Guard rescues on it. Some have been tragis, some really a comedy of errors. The point is that it works. The Coast Guard is serious about this stuff. They don't play around. A good point made is that IF you can contact a boat close to you, they will server as a radio relay under direction of the Coast Guard. And as mentioned a sailboat has a 40' antenna. Your will also be in safe hands much quicker if you can locate another boat to help you. I listened to a late night winter rescue over a period of 5-6 hours on my scanner while surfing teh net one night. The CG had teh vessel in trouble radio them every fifteen minutes to get a radio fix on their position. Most CG vessels carry Rdio Direction Finders connected to their VHF to get a fix on you, but you must be transmitting to do that. This is a good case for GPS. If you can tell them your exact position, you stand a much better chance of receiving help, especially if your VHF becomes inoperable or the batteries run down. Most boats today have some type of GPS unit onboard adn can use it to home in on you. All in all, it is going to help you a lot if you have done your homework ahead of time. If you know the features of your VHF and what it will and will not do, you are that much better off. As we were taught in scouts. Be Prepared. John *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 08:59 PM 12/2/98 EST, Johnlebl_at_aol.com wrote: >Folks, "line of sight" with reference to VHF-Fm marine radios is not line of >sight if mountains, ant hills or anything is in the way. Line of sight is >line of sight period. > >These radios are limited to almost line of sight, not line of sight. Using >25W radios adn 4' antennas on two boats I get a range of about 7-8 miles in >our coastal marshes dotted with islands and trees, etc. Move these onto open >water adn the range jumps to about 12-15 niles. This is with 25 W now, not >hand held 5W. > >To "monitor" anything iwth a handheld is admitting you do not want to use it >in an emergency. You will not have enough battery power. Transmitting uses a >lot more than listening. If you want to use it in case, then turn it off and >conserve battery power for that time when you need it. If want your cake and >eat it too, carry extra batteries. > >Cell phones. Texas and Louisiana are infested with offshore oil and gas rigs. >There is a whole industry of offshore cells. Many rigs have the cell antennas >on the rigs. This network is rather expensive to roam on at about $3.00 per >minute. But! with a cell phone you can call anywhere in the world. The >small boat world in our area carry VHF and cells. While canoeing, I carry >both also. The cell can make the call and the VHF can pick up the NOAA >weather radio almost 80 miles away. > >When not in use, I carry my VHF in my truck adn monitor ch 16. I live right >along the coast and have listened to about 5 or 6 live Coast Guard rescues on >it. Some have been tragis, some really a comedy of errors. > >The point is that it works. The Coast Guard is serious about this stuff. >They don't play around. A good point made is that IF you can contact a boat >close to you, they will server as a radio relay under direction of the Coast >Guard. And as mentioned a sailboat has a 40' antenna. Your will also be in >safe hands much quicker if you can locate another boat to help you. > >I listened to a late night winter rescue over a period of 5-6 hours on my >scanner while surfing teh net one night. The CG had teh vessel in trouble >radio them every fifteen minutes to get a radio fix on their position. Most >CG vessels carry Rdio Direction Finders connected to their VHF to get a fix on >you, but you must be transmitting to do that. This is a good case for GPS. >If you can tell them your exact position, you stand a much better chance of >receiving help, especially if your VHF becomes inoperable or the batteries run >down. Most boats today have some type of GPS unit onboard adn can use it to >home in on you. > >All in all, it is going to help you a lot if you have done your homework ahead >of time. If you know the features of your VHF and what it will and will not >do, you are that much better off. > >As we were taught in scouts. Be Prepared. > >John > > Check out http://www.jacksonville.net/~dldecker/fska5.htm#Telephone to see what the Coast Guard thinks. Dana *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Johnlebl_at_aol.com wrote: > > Folks, "line of sight" with reference to VHF-Fm marine radios is not line of > sight if mountains, ant hills or anything is in the way. Line of sight is > line of sight period. > To "monitor" anything iwth a handheld is admitting you do not want to use it > in an emergency. You will not have enough battery power. Transmitting uses a > lot more than listening. If you want to use it in case, then turn it off and > conserve battery power for that time when you need it. If want your cake and > eat it too, carry extra batteries. Good points, John. The comment about limited battery life applies for sure if you use NiCad batteries. My VHF's are equipped with alkalines, and I typically get many days of 4-6 hours of monitoring, with some transmitting, before the batteries indicate they need to be retired. (I use the Duracell units which have a "PowerCheck" strip which allows you to check them.) I've gone on several extended trips (1 - 2 weeks on the water) with the alkaline backs, and find I can expect at least 4-5 days of use before I begin to get concerned about reserve power if I have to transmit. I no longer trust NiCads in VHF radios. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 12/2/1998 11:37:36 AM EST, dkruger_at_pacifier.com writes: << Know the problem. That's why I went to alkaline power on my radios. (I used to fly RC airplanes, and learned to distrust/hate Ni-Cads!) The rechargeable units do not have enough TX time to be useful on an overnight trip, let alone a week, especially if you leave the radio on in RX mode for monitoring. I'll score you as a "no." Thanks for the informative reply. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR >> Folks, this is a good post. Thank you Dave. You did good. There are several handhelds on teh market today that use AA alkaline batteries. You can also rig up a motorcycle type battery for extended use. They are not that heavy. Also one drop of water on teh keypad of a cell phone WILL put it out of commission. One drop folks. They can't take even a light rain, much less salt spray. I have been there done that with a Motorola Flip. One drop put it out until I reied it with a hair dryer. On the other hand, marine handhelds are all water resistant adn a lot of them waterproof. Again it is wise to invest in the pouches made for that purpose. By the way, you can attach a hand held to a longer antennae adn get a much longer range. If I were into coastal paddling alot and I am not, I would rig up a 25 wat (cost $150.00 with a motorcycle type battery with a small antennae and a longer whip below teh decks to use when I needed it. With such a rig, you stretch a 6-8 mile range to a 15 to up to 20 mile range. The whole idea of VHF-FM marine radios is to limit range and thus limit interference. Having grown up on teh intracoastal canal in teh 50's asn 60's and an ardent fan of listening to teh boats via Hallicrafters receivers, I remember well teh days of 2180 mHz being teh hailing channel. I could hear boats from New Orleans to Brownsville Texas and half way across the Gulf of Mexico. These are still used on teh high seas and "talk hundreds of miles" but use considerable power and cannot be hand held. VHF was invented to let more boats have radio communications that did not have any and limit it to close range. If I kayaked near the shipping lanes and the river here is a shipping lane some 65 miles inland, the most important thing about a VHF would be my ability to say "hey big boy, do you see me?" Speaking of rescue via the Coast Guard. I listened to a shrimp boat call a mayday on my scanner in my truck whild driving to Galveston, Texas one day. It went something like this --"Coast Guard, Coast Guard, halp me please" "Halp me Coast Guard, I'm sinking fast" To make a long story short, I heard this about 40 miles from the ferry attaching Galveston to the mainland. The shrimp boat had through it's own negligence ran into an anchored ship waiting a pilot to come aboard. The ship did not even know what happened. The coast guard dispatched a 40 foot patrol boat at full throttle which can literally haul ass! We got to see this from teh ferry as we approached the landing right next to the Soast Fuard base. The shrimp boat was an old wooden one adn got busted up pretty bad. While teh CG boat was in route, the CG dispatch called teh ship adn had them loser a boat to assist teh shrimp boat. Meanwhile teh CG requested detailed infor as to crew and information so as to cause the skipper to demand "please stop asking me all these stupid questions adncome quick and help me" I got to give it to teh CG dispatcher adn boat operator, they acted very professional adn calmed him down. As I said befor, they had the situation under control all the time. This occured with about 5-6 foot waves adn when that patrol boat reached the end of the jettys and hit bigger swells, all you could see was a lot of spray which engulfed teh boat all together. I was really impressed with the speed with which they reacted, the calming effect of teh CG radiomen and their ability to get help from the ship personnel. I soon got out of radio range and curiosity later caused me to call Galveston CG to find out that the shrimp boat was saved from sinking although damaged pretty badly and no injuries were incurred. Folks, I got towed in once as a kid on a 65 foot fishing boat some 60miles offshore after we lost our rudder. Our only problem was we could only go in circles. I promise you the only thing better that the view of the stern of the Point Hope pulling you in is the sight of the bow of the Point Hope on the horizon comming your way. Let me suggest that any coastal paddler in reach of Coast Guard units look up the U S C G website. They have all sorts of info on it. Then call them adn arange a trip to look teh station over. It probably won't be big, but talk to teh men and women there adn you will find out how big their hearts are at helping those in distress. You will learn what they can and can't do. I recently watched a documentary on Discovery or Learning channel on Coast Guard rescue swimmer training. I was impressed to say the least. Growing upcoastal, I have always had a deep respect for CG adn my youngest brother served in teh CG for 6 years. The other was in teh Navy. I am the only boateradn was in the Army. Go figure! John *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Johnlebl_at_aol.com wrote: Another very informative post, John. Great anecdotes. > Let me suggest that any coastal paddler in reach of Coast Guard units look up > the U S C G website. They have all sorts of info on it. Then call them adn > arange a trip to look teh station over. It probably won't be big, but talk to > teh men and women there adn you will find out how big their hearts are at > helping those in distress. Where I live (mouth of the Columbia River, Oregon, USA), the USCG has a major presence, also. However, your post reminds me that the local CG unit has a web site which depicts the range of their receiving (and transmitting?) antennas for my area. Expect the same is true for other coastal areas, also. When I punched up the one for my area, I was amazed at the "gaps" shown. One is in a place I like to paddle a lot. Sure gives me a feel for where a mayday is likely to work, and where it is not likely to work. Made me resolve not to depend on the VHF to haul my tush out of a jam! Those who are familiar with the geography down here might be interested in checking this out: http://www.navcen.uscg.mil/marcomms/cgcomms/charts/13astori.jpg -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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