The issue of seat design came and went briefly and raised the question "Why do my legs go to sleep and is it sometimes hard to walk upon exit from the boat?" I argued for the essential necessity of *lumbar* support in paddlecraft unless posture is held correctly at all times. This is easier for me in a canoe. The numbness is caused by an increase in the lumbosacral angle, "slumping", which in turn causes nerve root impingement. This is easy to see in a few simple sketches and I recommend Rene Cailliet's "Low Back Pain Syndrome", F.A. Davis, Philadeplhia, especially Chapter 2. Referred numbness and pain in your legs does not likely start in the thighs but in pressure on nerves in L1-5, S1-2 region of the spine. Certainly bent knees is part of achieving proper paddling posture but lumbar support is the weak link for many. What did the Inuit use for seats? RGM -- Richard G. Mitchell, Jr. (541) 752-1323 phone/fax mitchelr_at_ucs.orst.edu *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Many thanks to Richard for his reference to Rene Cailliet's "Low Back Pain >Syndrome", F.A. Davis, Philadeplhia, which I will now order since my books on ergonomics did not clearly explain the "why". Richard asked; > >What did the Inuit use for seats? According Eugene Arima (Contributions to Kayak Studies and others) they used skins to pad the bottom. Many used no backrest or just used the cockpit back. Since cockpit heights varied considerably one suspects they did not recognise back pain as a problem or did not associate it with the backrest. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John Winters wrote: > Richard asked; > > > >What did the Inuit use for seats? > > According Eugene Arima (Contributions to Kayak Studies and others) they > used skins to pad the bottom. Many used no backrest or just used the > cockpit back. Since cockpit heights varied considerably one suspects they > did not recognise back pain as a problem or did not associate it with the > backrest. I think John is holding back. He knows full well that the Inuits used inflated stomach linings of Brits that were sealed tight; the amount of air in this stomach-based seats would vary with sea conditions and other factors. It is one more positive proof that the Inuit kayak culture sits on top of a Brit contribution. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 12/8/98 9:49:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, 735769_at_ican.net writes: << According Eugene Arima (Contributions to Kayak Studies and others) they used skins to pad the bottom. Many used no backrest or just used the cockpit back. Since cockpit heights varied considerably one suspects they did not recognise back pain as a problem or did not associate it with the backrest. >> For what it's worth, it was really interesting watching Maligiaq (sp?) get into his sealskin kayak at DelMarVa. He sat on the back deck on a pad of something that looked like quilted plastic foam packing material --- thin, maybe a half inch thick or less. (It may have extended into the boat to serve as seat padding.) After sliding into the boat --- in the most literal use of the word "slide" --- he folded the rest of the material into a sort of backrest, stuffing it into the area between his back and the cockpit rim, and then closed himself in with his tuilick (sp?). Whether this is <the> Greenland method or not could be debated for a while. And probably will. The boat was not his own, and this may have been a kluged method of seat/backrest formulation. And, as anyone who watched him paddle or looked at the paddle he brought to use, he clearly hadn't yet read all the definitive books on Greenland style equipment or technique. Guess we'll have to forgive the junior national champ for his "unorthodox" paddling. Does make you wonder about standardizing methods of Greenland instruction, though, doesn't it? Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
And, as anyone who watched him paddle or >looked at the paddle he brought to use, he clearly hadn't yet read all the >definitive books on Greenland style equipment or technique. Guess we'll have >to forgive the junior national champ for his "unorthodox" paddling. Does make >you wonder about standardizing methods of Greenland instruction, though, >doesn't it? > >Jack Martin Maybe there is a style of Greenland technique but not a definite one and only way. Look how the same skin boat built for people of different sizes looks like a different kayak. Who knows if this Champs grandfather paddled the right way in his time?( maybe he was the odd one out) There may not be a correct way to paddle the Greenland style but many similar ways.It could change some village to village. Maybe you are doing it right and every body else is wrong or visa-versa?? Dana *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Don't legs fall asleep as well from lack of movement, besides just the angle of the body? It is for this reason that I prefer large cockpits. If you have the ability to "raise a knee" and stretch your legs one at a time, it really helps improve circulation and to prevent this problem. - Scott Ives Richard Mitchell wrote: > > The issue of seat design came and went briefly and raised the > question "Why do my legs go to sleep and is it sometimes hard to > walk upon exit from the boat?" > > I argued for the essential necessity of *lumbar* support in > paddlecraft unless posture is held correctly at all times.... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Don't legs fall asleep as well from lack of movement, besides just the angle of the body? It is for this reason that I prefer large cockpits. If you have the ability to "raise a knee" and stretch your legs one at a time, it really helps improve circulation and to prevent this problem. ---------- I was taught to use a pumping motion with my legs in rhythm with my stroke to help keep the blood circulating. I do this with my feet on or off the pedals. The movement isn't exaggerated and isn't continuous. Just enough to get a little motion for a minute or two when they start falling asleep. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> The issue of seat design came and went briefly and raised the > question "Why do my legs go to sleep and is it sometimes hard to > walk upon exit from the boat?" > > I argued for the essential necessity of *lumbar* support in > paddlecraft unless posture is held correctly at all times. This > is easier for me in a canoe. The numbness is caused by an > increase in the lumbosacral angle, "slumping", which in turn > causes nerve root impingement. Personally I disagree from experience. I and others have found it to be pressure on the leg/buttock area on the outer side of the leg. Feels comfortable in the seat but deadens the leg. Get rid of that pressure point (caused by the curved upward moulding of the seat at the sides) and the legs will at least not go to sleep. It will probably not be a comfortable seat (for hours of sitting in) if the seat part is not long enough. Same in my car seat without changing the lumbar support so there's another data point to support my contention (for me). Alex -- ---------------------------------------------------- Alex Ferguson a.ferguson_at_chem.canterbury.ac.nz Electronics Workshop, Chem Dept, Univ of Canterbury Christchurch, New Zealand *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
What about the bean bag kayak seat concept, where a vinyl bag is filled with styrene beads. Wouldn't that work offering maximum comfort and no leg pain or numbing? I know Gary Rose (who happens to be a big man) used the idea with very satisfactory results. Regards, Philip ____________________________________________________________________ Alex Ferguson wrote: > > > The issue of seat design came and went briefly and raised the > > question "Why do my legs go to sleep and is it sometimes hard to > > walk upon exit from the boat?" > > > > I argued for the essential necessity of *lumbar* support in > > paddlecraft unless posture is held correctly at all times. This > > is easier for me in a canoe. The numbness is caused by an > > increase in the lumbosacral angle, "slumping", which in turn > > causes nerve root impingement. > > Personally I disagree from experience. I and others have > found it to be pressure on the leg/buttock area on the outer > side of the leg. Feels comfortable in the seat but deadens the > leg. Get rid of that pressure point (caused by the curved > upward moulding of the seat at the sides) and the legs will at > least not go to sleep. It will probably not be a comfortable > seat (for hours of sitting in) if the seat part is not long > enough. > > Same in my car seat without changing the lumbar support so > there's another data point to support my contention (for me). > > Alex > -- > ---------------------------------------------------- > Alex Ferguson a.ferguson_at_chem.canterbury.ac.nz > Electronics Workshop, Chem Dept, Univ of Canterbury > Christchurch, New Zealand > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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