You paddle rudderless boats, Blue and Red, on a flat water demo day. Blue is easily turned, while you have to lean and sweep hard to get Red to turn. You conclude Red tracks better than Blue. You paddle both again in an enclosed bay, with the wind howling at 20 to 30 knots, but only 1 foot wind chop because of the protection. Now you have to work like hell to keep Red from weathercocking (or lee cocking). Blue is easy to hold on any heading with a few easy leans and sweeps. You conclude Blue tracks better than Red. You paddle both again in 10 knots of wind but in confused following seas due to tidal current and a moderate rip. Every shift in wave direction rotates Blue back and forth through 45 deg. You have to be instantaneously on top of your leans and sweeps to keep on top of direction holding. But it is fairly easy to quickly get back on course. Red requires much less attention but when it does get knocked off course it is much harder to get it corrected. You don't know what the heck to conclude about tracking. Jerry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Gerald Foodman wrote: Flat Water Day: > You paddle rudderless boats, Blue and Red, on a flat water demo day. Blue > is easily turned, while you have to lean and sweep hard to get Red to turn. > You conclude Red tracks better than Blue. Bay Day: > You paddle both again in an enclosed bay, with the wind howling at 20 to 30 > knots, but only 1 foot wind chop because of the protection. Now you have to > work like hell to keep Red from weathercocking (or lee cocking). Blue is > easy to hold on any heading with a few easy leans and sweeps. You conclude > Blue tracks better than Red. Confused Day: > You paddle both again in 10 knots of wind but in confused following seas due > to tidal current and a moderate rip. Every shift in wave direction rotates > Blue back and forth through 45 deg. You have to be instantaneously on top > of your leans and sweeps to keep on top of direction holding. But it is > fairly easy to quickly get back on course. Red requires much less attention > but when it does get knocked off course it is much harder to get it > corrected. You don't know what the heck to conclude about tracking. Couple questions, Jerry: Actual boats? (Please do not tell us the name, model, or manufacturer!) Loaded the same, each trip? Does Red have more "vee" in the hull? Does Blue have markedly greater rocker? Re: Bay Day: I assume you mean Red was consistently weathercocking (say), and not first weathercocking and then leecocking, yes? If so, any effects from changing the fore-aft trim? Interesting comparisons. Sure is making me think. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Gerald wrote; >You paddle rudderless boats, Blue and Red, on a flat water demo day. Blue >is easily turned, while you have to lean and sweep hard to get Red to turn. >You conclude Red tracks better than Blue. > Compare the conclusion given with this; You conclude that Red responds less to turning moments than blue in a wave and wind free environment. One conclusion can deceive the paddler the other enlightens him and directs him to the boat that suits his needs. The word "better" may cause the confusion. If one doesn't want or need a boat that tracks perfectly straight then Red may not be viewed as "better" >You paddle both again in an enclosed bay, with the wind howling at 20 to 30 >knots, but only 1 foot wind chop because of the protection. Now you have to >work like hell to keep Red from weathercocking (or lee cocking). Blue is >easy to hold on any heading with a few easy leans and sweeps. You conclude >Blue tracks better than Red. Compare the conclusion with this; Red has greater response to leeway induced turning moments and less response to paddle induced turning moments than Blue in a choppy windy environment. Similar thoughts apply to the conclusions as in the first example. . > >You paddle both again in 10 knots of wind but in confused following seas due >to tidal current and a moderate rip. Every shift in wave direction rotates >Blue back and forth through 45 deg. You have to be instantaneously on top >of your leans and sweeps to keep on top of direction holding. But it is >fairly easy to quickly get back on course. Red requires much less attention >but when it does get knocked off course it is much harder to get it >corrected. You don't know what the heck to conclude about tracking. Compare with this; Blue requires constant paddler response in confused conditions etc. but responds even after a lapse in timing. Red responds more slowly to external turning moments and requires less attention to keep on course unless ones attention lapses beyond a certain point in which case it requires greater effort to get back on course. In every case, proper conclusions reveal the reality of the boat and guide in how one reacts to the boat. One should asses ones ability and objectives and match them to the boat. Paddlers appear to expect perfection in their boats while the reality has more to do with suiting the boat to the skills and objectives of the paddler which means rather simply that perfection for all paddlers in one boat will not likely happen in this world. Jerry's examples reflect the challenges for both buyers and builders. The resulting boat characteristics must reflect decisions about the control feedback loop time (varies with paddler), the paddler objectives and paddling environment. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I have become uncomfortable with the term "tracking" although I still use it for lack of a better term. I tend to use "tracking" in relation to ease/difficulty of changing course. Both intentionally and due to outside forces. I have been trying to use the term "balance" when external forces don't have strong tendancy to through the boat off course in any particular direction. Although I am not completely happy with my current definitions, by my way of looking at it Blue seem to be a "soft" tracking boat with balance and Red would seem to be a "hard" tracking boat with less balance. The problem with any definition is, do other people agree with it. I am uncomfortable with my use of "tracking" and "balance" because other people use "tracking" differently. Where some people tend to give "tracking" a qualitative value (good or bad), by my definition it has more of a quantitative value (hard or soft) so if I say "soft" they may interpret that as "bad". However, some people are may not mind having to make constant adjustments just so long as they aren't too difficult to do. In a qualitative definition, this may be a "good" tracking boat even though in a quantitative terms it might not have as much tracking ability and could be called "soft". Another parameter that has a definition problem is stability. Which has "better" stability a boat which is hard to lean over, but if you can lean it a little will easily capsize the rest of the way, or one that is easy to lean, but can be leaned very far before it capsizes? I guess it depends on what you want, but how do you define stability so they both can be good or bad? Nick At 8:52 PM -0800 1/16/99, Gerald Foodman wrote: >You paddle rudderless boats, Blue and Red, on a flat water demo day. Blue >is easily turned, while you have to lean and sweep hard to get Red to turn. >You conclude Red tracks better than Blue. > >You paddle both again in an enclosed bay, with the wind howling at 20 to 30 >knots, but only 1 foot wind chop because of the protection. Now you have to >work like hell to keep Red from weathercocking (or lee cocking). Blue is >easy to hold on any heading with a few easy leans and sweeps. You conclude >Blue tracks better than Red. > >You paddle both again in 10 knots of wind but in confused following seas due >to tidal current and a moderate rip. Every shift in wave direction rotates >Blue back and forth through 45 deg. You have to be instantaneously on top >of your leans and sweeps to keep on top of direction holding. But it is >fairly easy to quickly get back on course. Red requires much less attention >but when it does get knocked off course it is much harder to get it >corrected. You don't know what the heck to conclude about tracking. > >Jerry > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ >*************************************************************************** Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 10 Ash Swamp Rd Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 Schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ >>>>"It's not just Art, It's a Craft!"<<<< *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Nick's remarks (after the sig; one glitch noted) have been festering in my brain for a couple days, now. I think my own requirements may depend on how rough the water is -- which is mostly a function of how windy it is. First, what I want when it is not very windy, and there is not much of a "lump" on the water: A boat which "tracks well" -- which holds a straight line course and does not require constant effort-full corrections to maintain that course, *in relatively flat water.* It goes without saying I do not want to paddle a boat which habitually responds to wind by weathercocking. When it gets lumpy, my requirements change. To some extent, I find lumpy seas make corrections easier -- due (I suppose) to the ability to exploit those moments when the yak is on top of a swell, and a little sweep easily puts the yak back on course. And, when the lump is on, typically, I find my boats "wander" more -- so I need to make more corrective strokes, especially when in a following sea. So, in rougher waters, a "softer"-tracking boat would be OK for me, and I would not need one which has Nick's "balance." (See remarks below about his choice of the word "balance.") I prefer it when leaning is enough to make course corrections, and so a boat which responds well to leaning is better for me. In that sense, I guess I generally prefer boats which Nick would label as moderately well-"balanced" in flat water and with "soft" tracking qualities. I suspect Jerry's Red boat would drive me crazy (especially the weathercocking), and that his Blue boat would be more to my liking, despite its greater tendency to wander on flat water. I have trouble associating the properties Nick means by "balance" with that word. "Rigidity" or "inflexibility" seem closer to what his "balance" seems to mean, although neither of these is right, either. Not sure I got anywhere in this. I do know when I'm in a boat I hate, though. In that regard, the doggiest boat I ever owned was a (rudderless) Aquaterra Spectrum. In the slightest side wind, it was a mother to keep on course, and leaning had variable effects, depending on whether you were paddling or not. When I quit paddling during a leaned turn, it would "wash out" and do a virtual 180 turn! Maddening as hell! I finally strapped a rudder on the rear to tame it down. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR -- Nick Schade wrote: > > I have become uncomfortable with the term "tracking" although I still use > it for lack of a better term. I tend to use "tracking" in relation to > ease/difficulty of changing course. Both intentionally and due to outside > forces. I have been trying to use the term "balance" when external forces > don't have strong tendancy to through the boat off course in any particular > direction. > > Although I am not completely happy with my current definitions, by my way > of looking at it Blue seem to be a "soft" tracking boat with balance and > Red would seem to be a "hard" tracking boat with less balance. Huh? How does this square with Red requiring hard sweeps and leaning to turn on flat water? > The problem with any definition is, do other people agree with it. I am > uncomfortable with my use of "tracking" and "balance" because other people > use "tracking" differently. Where some people tend to give "tracking" a > qualitative value (good or bad), by my definition it has more of a > quantitative value (hard or soft) so if I say "soft" they may interpret > that as "bad". > > However, some people may not mind having to make constant adjustments > just so long as they aren't too difficult to do. In a qualitative > definition, this may be a "good" tracking boat even though in a > quantitative terms it might not have as much tracking ability and could be > called "soft". [snipped remarks on "stability"] > At 8:52 PM -0800 1/16/99, Gerald Foodman wrote: > >You paddle rudderless boats, Blue and Red, on a flat water demo day. Blue > >is easily turned, while you have to lean and sweep hard to get Red to turn. > >You conclude Red tracks better than Blue. > > > >You paddle both again in an enclosed bay, with the wind howling at 20 to 30 > >knots, but only 1 foot wind chop because of the protection. Now you have to > >work like hell to keep Red from weathercocking (or lee cocking). Blue is > >easy to hold on any heading with a few easy leans and sweeps. You conclude > >Blue tracks better than Red. > > > >You paddle both again in 10 knots of wind but in confused following seas due > >to tidal current and a moderate rip. Every shift in wave direction rotates > >Blue back and forth through 45 deg. You have to be instantaneously on top > >of your leans and sweeps to keep on top of direction holding. But it is > >fairly easy to quickly get back on course. Red requires much less attention > >but when it does get knocked off course it is much harder to get it > >corrected. You don't know what the heck to conclude about tracking. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>> >> Although I am not completely happy with my current definitions, by my way >> of looking at it Blue seem to be a "soft" tracking boat with balance and >> Red would seem to be a "hard" tracking boat with less balance. > >Huh? How does this square with Red requiring hard sweeps and leaning to >turn on flat water? > By my less than perfect definitions the Red boat is "hard" tracking because it is hard difficult to make it turn, but it is not balanced because outside forces can push it off course. Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 10 Ash Swamp Rd Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 Schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ >>>>"It's not just Art, It's a Craft!"<<<< *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Gerald wrote about the different tracking characteristics of different boats and came to a conclusion: >You don't know what the heck to >conclude about tracking. Then John responded: >Jerry's examples reflect the challenges >for both buyers and builders. The >resulting boat characteristics must reflect >decisions about the control feedback >loop time (varies with paddler), the >paddler objectives and paddling >environment. Wow, and I thought it was just a good excuse to buy another boat. :-) Frank *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Once again John Winters demonstrates discernment > > In every case, proper conclusions reveal the reality of the boat and guide > in how one reacts to the boat. One should asses ones ability and objectives > and match them to the boat. I have both a red and a blue. I absolutely love padding blue and will choose this more responsive boat 19 out of 20 trips. I get the feeling I can think what I want the boat to do and it will do it. Sure I have to make corrections much more frequently than when paddling red but it just feels better all around. Having said that, if I want to go fast or far, red is the way to go. Brian Blankinship *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>Having said that, if I want to go fast or far, red is the way to go. > >Brian Blankinship Doesn't "fast and far" translate into less work? Or, did I miss something. I have a "red" (Eddyline-Falcon 18). I don't have the hang of keeping it slowed down to keep the bow from burrying. Even today in one foot chop (steep, but close together), the bow will sometimes bury (what Phillip T. has referred to as "submarining," even when I am leaning back. In these waves, it is no problem. When the waves are over 4, the bow buries deeply enough to pitchpol. Robert *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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