I strongly suggest that people get out there and try out a few tow ropes. I have both 100" foot homemade and a 60 foot Northwater systems towrope. Both are equipped with stainless caribiners at each end and floats. A sinking rope is next to useless in rough conditions. Clearly someone needing towing is likely incapacitated and reaching into the water to pick up a sinking line puts that person at greater than necessary risk of capsize. The concept of the biner is that you can paddle past the distressed kayak and clip it on almost instantly without fuss. The strain actually comes on gradually not with any sudden jerk if your towline is of reasonable length. The lines I'm using are of 7/16" and 1/2" diameter and the strength is more than adequate. The primary consideration is handling. The length to be paid out is to allow the towed kayak to be at the same relative position on its wave as the kayak towing. This minimizes stress and makes towing any distance much easier. I use an around the waist belt attachment with quick release buckle. I have seem some deck mounted arrangements but have been doubtful about their quick release ability which may be necessary in surf etc. I believe a quick release arrangement to be superior to the "weak link" concepts proposed. Again the best way is to get out in expected conditions somewhere safe (i.e. safe beach with onshore wind in rough conditions) and practice so you can use your rescue systems with ease and confidence. Mark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>Julio MacWilliams wrote: > >One thing - a little off topic - that I've been thinking about the past >couple of days is: how strong should the tow rope be? New rules >in Canada require "buoyany heaving lines" at least 15 metres long >on all kayaks The MEC small throw bag uses 6mm polypropylene floating rope, 408kg or 900 lb breaking strength. That's darned small to hold on to. Their big throwbag has 9mm rope with 816kg/1800 lb breaking strength. My own throwbag is an older MEC small, with a shorter length of 9mm rope. I'll have to measure it & see if it meets regulations. ------------- Lloyd Bowles The Mad Canoeist "Keep the open side up!" http://www.fortunecity.com/greenfield/clearstreets/358/index.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Maybe I'm missing something here, but it seems to me that the tow line isn't doing any "towing" unless it is stretched taut between the two attachment points. During the times that the line is slack it simply falls either to the surface (floating line) or below the surface (sinking line). So what would be the benefit of using a sinking line? The extra time needed to bring the line taut (from below the surface) would seem to be inefficient. Another positive side of using floating line is that floating line (like the type employed in many rescue throw bags) is much easier to use for a rope rescue (ie. the hapless boater that is now swimming can locate and grab a line floating on the surface much more easily than they could a line that is "somewhere" under the surface). Dave Seng Juneau, Alaska > -----Original Message----- > From: Julio MacWilliams [mailto:juliom_at_cisco.com] snip > > However, I would like to stick to the initial topic: would it > be better > that the length of the two line stayed underwater, instead of floating > all around? > > cheers, > > - Julio *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Another consideration for a tow rope is versatility. It is perhaps best that it be saved for towing/rescue, so that its strength is assured, but for many of us tow ropes are forced into duty rigging tents, mooring boats, lowering boats, etc. I find a longer, thinner, more static line is preferable to a shorter, fatter, more dynamic line for these purposes. I can always double a thinner line to get strength, although longer lines tend to be a bit more unmanageable in rough rescues. So sometimes I clip in halfway down. A longer line can also be used with more boats, a plus if you're not sure other boaters have rescue lines. I also agree with other posters: maybe I'm influenced by WW use, but I cannot see any point to using a sinking line unless you're rescuing halibut. Rob Gendreau Oakland, California gendreau_at_ccnet.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Thanks Mark I agree with your comments about needing a floating line and on practicing with various systems and techniques so people can get skilled enough to start a tow quickly in an emergency situation. Don Dimond and I taught a towing clinic so we had the chance to look into the various towing systems and techniques in depth. We of course have our own preferences and prejudices so not everyone will agree with us. We feel that for most Great Lakes paddlers a 30 to 50 foot tow line is sufficient and longer lines just add more bulk. However if you think you will be towing in very large seas a line over 50 feet might be in order. More line gives you more options, but a long line gets bulky unless you want to compromise by using a small diameter. I prefer to only pay out as much line as needed since the more rope there is in the water the greater the drag and wasted energy. However it is worth noting that in a following sea you may need to pay out the full length to keep from getting overtaken by the towed kayak. When heading into the wind a shorter length is in order. Also you take the emotional state of the person you are assisting into account - the closer they are to you the better if their confidence has been shaken. I can't stress enough the importance of a shock cord in the system. A friend of mine towed someone five miles in 10 to 15 foot seas without a shock cord on his tow line. He said when the boats decided to head down opposite sides of a wave it felt like being rear-ended in a car accident. He is lucky he did not peel the deck off his kayak in one of these impacts. The average towing force is normally less than 10 pounds, so it is the sudden shocks that need to be damped out of the system - a thicker rope is not needed for greater strength, but thicker lines are easier to pull on forcefully bare handed, and if rubbed or frayed they are less likely to part when you need them most ( use as a heavy a line as you can, as long as it does not get to bulky). For long tows a deck mounted rig is less tiring than a waist mount. Keep in mind a Caribiner is not a suitable quick release since it will not open under tension. There are some great Cam-cleat deck mount rigs that you can release one-handed while upside down and disoriented, and most commercial waist tows have quick release buckles. The big advantage to a waist tow is that unlike a deck mounted system you can give it to someone else and have them tow you! It seems like I always end up on the hard work side of the tow line! Although Caribiners are workable I think they are a bit bulky and can tend to jam after abuse and exposure to saltwater. I have used some smaller stainless steel clips that I found in the sailing gear at Boat US ( Halyard clips???) which are a bit expensive, but seem to be just the ticket. Mark Stirling wrote: > I strongly suggest that people get out there and try out a few tow > ropes. I have both 100" foot homemade and a 60 foot Northwater > systems towrope. Both are equipped with stainless caribiners at each > end and floats. A sinking rope is next to useless in rough > conditions. Clearly someone needing towing is likely incapacitated > and reaching into the water to pick up a sinking line puts that person > at greater than necessary risk of capsize. The concept of the biner is > that you can paddle past the distressed kayak and clip it on almost > instantly without fuss. The strain actually comes on gradually not > with any sudden jerk if your towline is of reasonable length. The > lines I'm using are of 7/16" and 1/2" diameter and the strength is > more than adequate. The primary consideration is handling. The > length to be paid out is to allow the towed kayak to be at the same > relative position on its wave as the kayak towing. This minimizes > stress and makes towing any distance much easier. I use an around the > waist belt attachment with quick release buckle. I have seem some > deck mounted arrangements but have been doubtful about their quick > release ability which may be necessary in surf etc. I believe a quick > release arrangement to be superior to the "weak link" concepts > proposed. Again the best way is to get out in expected conditions > somewhere safe (i.e. safe beach with onshore wind in rough conditions) > and practice so you can use your rescue systems with ease and > confidence. > > Mark > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 11:23 25-01-99 -0800, Julio MacWilliams <juliom_at_cisco.com> wrote: > > >Salamander advertises that their tow ropes float, and are highly >visible. > >In a recent workshop, a student made a presentation on towing with >a tow rope that sinks to the bottom, leaving only the storage bag >floating. > >So, here is the question. Is it really an advantage that the length >of a tow rope floats? > >I can see one disadvantage. If the thing is floating all over the >surface, the chances of getting entangled with it are a lot higher. > >opinions? > >- Julio good question. on the river, we want rope to float, you don't want it snagging on the bottom... mark #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com-------------------------------------- mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. po box 474 </ [\/ [\_| [\_\ ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ http://www.diac.com/~zen/paddler [index of Paddling websites I manage] Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club, Colorado River Flows, Poudre Paddlers The Colorado Paddlers' Resource, Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
If the rope floats and you get slack in it when you paddle forward you simply remove the slack and pick up the tension of the towed boat. If the rope sinks and gets slack in it you have to overcome the water tension on the rope before you pick up the tension of the towed boat. If nothing else, it's less work. ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Zen <canoeist_at_netbox.com> To: <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Sent: Friday, February 19, 1999 5:01 AM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] floating tow rope >At 11:23 25-01-99 -0800, Julio MacWilliams <juliom_at_cisco.com> wrote: >> >> >>Salamander advertises that their tow ropes float, and are highly >>visible. >> >>In a recent workshop, a student made a presentation on towing with >>a tow rope that sinks to the bottom, leaving only the storage bag >>floating. >> >>So, here is the question. Is it really an advantage that the length >>of a tow rope floats? >> >>I can see one disadvantage. If the thing is floating all over the >>surface, the chances of getting entangled with it are a lot higher. >> >>opinions? >> >>- Julio > >good question. on the river, we want rope to float, you don't want it >snagging on the bottom... > >mark > >#------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com-------------------------------------- >mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. >po box 474 </ [\/ [\_| [\_\ >ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') >#~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ >http://www.diac.com/~zen/paddler [index of Paddling websites I manage] >Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club, Colorado River Flows, Poudre Paddlers >The Colorado Paddlers' Resource, Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ >*************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
The original message date is earlier than when I joined, so all this might have been covered already.... Lots of reason why a rope should float. You hardly ever hit a swimmer bang on with the rope. If it's on the surface he can see it and get to it. Since he is wearing a pfd, how does he go down to get it? Suppose it snags on a rock below; either the swimmer goes under or he has to let go -- so what's the good of the rope? For the same reasons, painters should float. A swimmer must be able to see it and grab onto it. In really cold water his hands might not work too well but he can at least wrap his arms around it a coupla times. There was also an instance last year where an open boater took a swim. Her painter was nonfloating and got tangled in a submerged log. The force of the water pulled the whole boat under. Finally had to pull up and cut the rope which was neither an easy nor safe procedure. Also----- -----Original Message----- >>>So, here is the question. Is it really an advantage that the length >>>of a tow rope floats? >>>I can see one disadvantage. If the thing is floating all over the >>>surface, the chances of getting entangled with it are a lot higher. >>>opinions? From a WW point of view, this is a non-event. If you threw it straight out, then the water current will ordinarily put a bow in it and it will stay untangled but presentable to the swimmer. Entanglement of this sort is very unusual. >>> >>>- Julio >> >>good question. on the river, we want rope to float, you don't want it >>snagging on the bottom... >> >>mark >> >>#------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com-------------------------------------- >>mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. >>po box 474 </ [\/ [\_| [\_\ >>ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') >>#~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ >>http://www.diac.com/~zen/paddler [index of Paddling websites I manage] >>Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club, Colorado River Flows, Poudre Paddlers >>The Colorado Paddlers' Resource, Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page >> >>************************************************************************** * >>PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >>Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >>Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >>Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ >>************************************************************************** * >> > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ >*************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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