Michael,and others holding this view: Kind of harsh, but you do have a point. However, there are a lot of easy beginner routes for the non athletic paddlers. Hopefully, these individuals will work toward a better level of general fitness as they progress and find encouragement and confidence. The context of my original question was that of a club situation, where leaders are trying to deal with these issues in a fair, sensitive, logical manner. If a person, any person, cannot demonstrate the required skills, we now restrict them from the more vigorous paddles, or paddles with crossings, etc. In the mean time, some of us need to remain committed to working toward a goal that seeks to include everyone in this enjoyable activity of kayaking, even if we would rather just stick our heads in the berm. >Doug Lloyd wrote: > >> Thank you for all the good advice that came in with suggestions regarding >> larger individuals having difficulty getting back in their kayaks. To >> clarify, the ladies involved are not the type to desire to learn to roll or >> do a reverse wet exit (re entry and roll). We are trying to teach good >> bracing skills as a preventative, but feel that as a minimum, they should be >> able to get back in with some assistance. > >Allow me to be the bad guy. I think that if these folks have that much trouble, >they perhaps shouldn't be kayaking. I'm responsible for nordic touring and >backcountry activities in my ski club and have been in the position several >times to tell folks "sorry, you can't go". That, in fact is part of my training. >I would so the same thing paddling. There's no reason to put themselves and >others at risk if they don't have the skills/strength/endurance to do something >as basic as, in paddling, an assisted rescue. > >Someone suggested that they need more leg strength. A normally fit person >has enough leg strength. Similar for arm strength. Their problem sounds like >they're just not fit or are too fat. > >Everyone today thinks they should be able to do anything they want without any >special preparation or training. They look at these things in a romantic, dreamy >way - "isn't this wonderful/pretty/adventurous..." and want to take part. >This isn't the case. It's not a push button world. You aren't instantly able to do >something jsut because it sounds like a good idea. > >The preparation they need is not to learn to paddle but to get into sufficient >physical condition to do all the activities required for safe paddling. > >Mike > > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ >*************************************************************************** > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Doug Lloyd wrote: > > Michael,and others holding this view: > > Kind of harsh, but you do have a point. However, there are a lot of easy > beginner routes for the non athletic paddlers. Hopefully, these individuals > will work toward a better level of general fitness as they progress and find > encouragement and confidence. The context of my original question was that > of a club situation, where leaders are trying to deal with these issues in a > fair, sensitive, logical manner. If a person, any person, cannot demonstrate > the required skills, we now restrict them from the more vigorous paddles, or > paddles with crossings, etc. In the mean time, some of us need to remain > committed to working toward a goal that seeks to include everyone in this > enjoyable activity of kayaking, even if we would rather just stick our heads > in the berm. I have a counterpoint to this argument. It is based on the regular activities of the Downtown Boathouse here in New York City on the Manhattan banks of the Hudson. While I have kittens when I see some of the situation, it has worked out quite well with hardly any incidents. I certainly believe that people should have skills, good gear and knowledge to use it, etc., but total beginners can accomplish quite a lot. The Downtown Boathouse started as a place for paddlers to store kayaks; I have one there. But it increasingly has moved toward providing river access to the public as a community service. It now has about 15 public boats, and as storage spaces open up, they are no longer going to private use but rather for storage of more and more public boats. The Boathouse basically runs two kayaking programs. One involves giving free access every weekend (from May to October) to all comers to the embayment area between two piers that is roughly the size of three football fields. This area is out of the way of river traffic but can get quite choppy from wind and wakes. In 1998 some 6,000 people were put into these boats, many of them numerous times...the 6,000 figure is based on waivers that need only be signed once during the season. People are asked to limit themselves to about a half hour paddling in this area so others who are waiting their turn can use the boats. The place can get quite crowded since it is in downtown Manhattan in the newly emerging Hudson River Park. Thousands of bikers, skaters, runners, and strollers pass by the open gate to the Boathouse dock. They are drawn by the kayaks they see right alongside them. They come through the gate, ask if they can rent a kayak and are told no, it's free!! The other program the group runs is quite a bit more challenging. Every weekend morning, trips are organized that take basically inexperienced people across the Hudson to the Statue of Liberty and Ellis Island. It's about a 5 mile roundtrip but the waters are hairy a lot of the time. Conditions at the tip of Manhattan are often turbulent because of the differentials in timing of currents in the East and Hudson Rivers and constant winds blowing down the river and through the canyons of the city. Moreover, on the flood, the vast volume of tide coming in from the harbor and ocean squeezes into the relatively narrower Hudson river (still quite wide though, about 3/4 mile wide) and the waters stack up in confused chop. Adding to this are the wakes of commercial traffic in the form of tugs and barges, freighters, ocean liners, sightseeing boats, lunch cruises and numerous ferry runs. Then there are the hordes of recreational motor and sailing boats crisscrossing the area. Wakes from all this traffic not only churn up the waters; they also reflect off the hard seawalls lining each bank. If you want to see clapotis at its worse, here is the place to be. So paddlers not only have to deal with nutty water. They also must dodge traffic coming at them from every direction. The entire width of the river is designated as channel. The trips are led by Boathouse members who escort about a dozen to 15 inexperienced people, although as the season wears on some have developed a bit of experience from the trips. Generally, these individuals are physically fit as they are drawn from the skaters, bikers, and runners among others who earlier strolled by and found out about the free trips across and down river to the Statue. Some of the people escorting the trips have some rescue skills, others, I would say, are questionable. Luckily, almost all the public boats are sit-on-tops plus several double Jocyasees, open cockpit kayaks. There are a few boats with sprayskirts and these are given to individuals who seem to know what they are doing or stated some kayaking experience. Despite, what I see as sometimes scary waters, no one has gotten hurt on these trips. Spills are rare...the only ones I saw were of two relatively skilled paddlers in their private kayaks who got pinned by currents against piers and flipped. Paddlers from other regions who have been in these waters do see them as pretty demanding; this is not your typical quiet paddle along some pastoral shore. I know when Caveman Gray was here and I went out with him in one of his double inflatables, his hair got a bit more grey. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 04:21 AM 1/28/99 -0800, you wrote: >Doug Lloyd wrote: >> >> Michael,and others holding this view: >> >> Kind of harsh, but you do have a point. However, there are a lot of easy >> beginner routes for the non athletic paddlers. Hopefully, these individuals >> will work toward a better level of general fitness as they progress and find >> encouragement and confidence. The context of my original question was that >> of a club situation, where leaders are trying to deal with these issues in a >> fair, sensitive, logical manner. If a person, any person, cannot demonstrate >> the required skills, we now restrict them from the more vigorous paddles, or >> paddles with crossings, etc. In the mean time, some of us need to remain >> committed to working toward a goal that seeks to include everyone in this >> enjoyable activity of kayaking, even if we would rather just stick our heads >> in the berm. > > It strikes me that we have a tendency to think of very large and/or not particularly physically fit people as a whole separate category of paddlers (or perhaps non-paddlers), when in fact they are part of a continuum that includes the people on the Paddlewise list. Sure, I expect the average fitness level of Paddlewise members is probably higher than the average fitness level of the overall North American population, but I'm not ashamed to admit that my personal fitness level is as far below that of a kayak marathoner as the fitness level of those "large ladies" is below mine. I do think it's entirely appropriate for group leaders to sometimes make the hard call that, sorry, this particular individual (at this time) is not suited to this particular trip (or the leader may say it the other way round if that's more palatable). If we're being prudent, we Paddlewisers also exclude ourselves from some trips; it's just that we make these decisions for ourselves rather than having to rely on outside experts. My own fitness level fluctuates, so just cause I did a particular trip one time doesn't mean I'm always ready to do it. Some advantages we do have over otherwise equivalently fit people are greater experience, paddling skills, and judgement. We all started out as kayak beginners, though some of us, being more physically fit to begin with, and perhaps having transferable skills from other activities, progressed more rapidly and further than others. So, yes, there are will be trips that for the moment, or perhaps always, will be out of reach for some people. But perhaps the introduction to an activity will be the spur for some to tap unsuspected athletic potential in themselves. Others may never be capable of or inclined to paddle in anything more difficult than a millpond, but if they are enjoying themselves and not putting themselves or others at risk, that's just fine, and more power to them. Philip T. N49°16' W123°08' "The opinions expressed in this posting are not necessarily those of my employer, or indeed, of any sentient being." *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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