Bob, Not having seen the Viking boat you mentioned I can't make a comparison. According to what I have read and heard from different reliable sources, the kayak migrated eastward from Alaska with the nomadic hunters about 1000 AD and reached Greenland a few hundred years later. The kayaks that came from Alaska at that time are thought to have evolved from some type of decked canoe. East of Greenland, only the Irish were known to have seagoing skin boats. It's not impossible that other ancient cultures with similar needs in similar circumstances could have evolved a craft similar to the Greenland kayak. The true hallmark of a West Greenland Style kayak is it's hard chine, slab sided, low shear construction. I've noticed that more and more manufacturers are coming out with " Greenland style " kayaks, but if they don't have these features (at least full length hard chines) they are not true Greenland design. The decks of Greenland kayaks vary in design, but the hull designs pretty much always exhibit these three features. Richard Malarich *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I noticed an ad the other day featuring a computer animation of a Viking boat. I was struck by the resemblance to some of the Greenland style boats (and my Nordkapp) I wonder if there wasn't some interaction between the Vikings and the indigenous peoples of Greenland and Eastern Canada during the first Millenium? cu *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Bob wrote; >I noticed an ad the other day featuring a computer animation of a Viking >boat. I was struck by the resemblance to some of the Greenland style boats >(and my Nordkapp) I wonder if there wasn't some interaction between the >Vikings and the indigenous peoples of Greenland and Eastern Canada during >the first Millenium? What resemblance do you see? I am unable to see much resemblance. In fact, I am unable to see much resemblance between the Nordkapp and the kayaks of Greenland. Perhaps I am missing something. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I guess the shape of the bow and stern. The view of the boat in the ad is from the waterline or below. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net]On Behalf Of John Winters > Sent: Monday, January 04, 1999 12:58 PM > To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] West Greenland Hull Design > > > Bob wrote; > > > >I noticed an ad the other day featuring a computer animation > of a Viking > >boat. I was struck by the resemblance to some of the > Greenland style boats > >(and my Nordkapp) I wonder if there wasn't some interaction > between the > >Vikings and the indigenous peoples of Greenland and Eastern > Canada during > >the first Millenium? > > What resemblance do you see? I am unable to see much > resemblance. In fact, > I am unable to see much resemblance between the Nordkapp and > the kayaks of > Greenland. Perhaps I am missing something. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Bob Denton wrote; Re: comparison between Viking ships and kayaks from Greenland. >I guess the shape of the bow and stern. The view of the boat in the ad is >from the waterline or below. I think you will find that the upswept ends can be found on boats from most parts of the world. In some cases the upswept ends had aesthetic function and in some they had sea keeping functions. The feature, nonetheless, appears to be widespread and could have appeared simultaneously in various parts of the world. Keep in mind also that the upswept ends of kayaks made in West and Southwest appear to be highly localised. In East Greenland the boats had low ends and flat sheers and the boats built on polar regions had high bows but low sterns and relatively straight sheers. The conservatism of boat builders and particularly those who build by eye appears to be universal. A study of the fishing boats of the Chesapeake Bay, for example, reveals strong local characteristics even though communication between localities was common. There exist parallels around the world. As Richard Malarich suggests, commercial builders have purloined the term "Greenland kayak" and corrupted it to the point where the public perception of what constitutes a "Greenland style" kayak has no relationship to the boats built in Greenland by native people. To repeat and elaborate on Richard's comments, relative to other types of Arctic kayaks the boats of Greenland have (in general) a single full length hard chine, low freeboard, and flat decks and relatively long overhangs forward. In addition one could add relatively small ranges (relative to other Arctic regions) of prismatic coefficients, waterplane coefficients, length/beam ratios, and profile coefficients. The practice of labelling anything with one or more of these characteristics as a "Greenland kayak" or "Greenland style" kayak exemplifies the triumph of advertising over reality. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John Winters wrote: > As Richard Malarich suggests, commercial builders have purloined the term > "Greenland kayak" and corrupted it to the point where the public perception > of what constitutes a "Greenland style" kayak has no relationship to the > boats built in Greenland by native people. > > The practice of labelling anything with one or more of these > characteristics as a "Greenland kayak" or "Greenland style" kayak > exemplifies the triumph of advertising over reality. I always found it amusing that Folbot hooked on to the idea with the names of its models. It came out about 10 years ago with a double and a single called the Greenland II and Greenland I, respectively. The single had a 32 inch beam, huge cockpit, flat bottom...anything but a Greenlander...East, West, North, South or any points of the compass. Well, they did have hard chines anyway. :-) In a display of chutzpah, Folbot replaced the Greenland I with a model that shows its neutrality in the kayak design wars...its Aleut 1. A shorter version of the Greenland I but no more Aleut than the Greenland was Greenland. The company did get a letter from some tribal rep complaining about the use of the word Aleut. Both boats would have driven purists insane. Don't get me wrong. I think the models are just fine. The Aleut is actually a better boat than the Greenland (I mean the Folbot models in both cases. :-)) Folbots are good reliable boats, etc. I would like them better if they had names such as the Charleston, the Carolina, etc. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John Winters wrote: > The practice of labelling anything with one or more of these > characteristics as a "Greenland kayak" or "Greenland style" kayak > exemplifies the triumph of advertising over reality. I tend to think of the two significant variations as "British style" (Greenland) due to the popularity of the designs in Britain and "Northwest Coast style" after the various types produced in the Northwest coast of the US and Canada, such as Current Designs, Seaward etc. These are crude geographic references and some would be quick to point out the many exceptions, but they are just as accurate as attributing the designs to the Inuit, Aleut or other northern first nations. (Perhaps I should add a "Winters style" for the low bow type like the Swift North Sea and Eddyline Carbonlite 2000 ... only because John was the first to explain the advantages of the style to me. :-) Two sports I spend most time with these days, Nordic skiing and kayaking both have real problems with nomenclature. No one can agree on the names of freestyle skiing techniques (offset, paddle dance, uphill V2 etc all describe the same technique in different circles - the Canadians, Europeans and Americans all have different terminology). Similarly, I saw a "bow rudder" demonstrated last year, supposedly "invented" by a Brit that looked suspiciously like a canoeist's bow pry. There are of course a gazillion rolling techniques that have overlapping names. I can't help but think we could standardize names so that they are relatively accurate and have the same meaning to all persons (but maybe that's just because I'm an engineer). *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
If the Vikings actually "Discovered" the new world around 1000 they probably would have interacted with the locals along the way. I'm sure a boat load of Vikings would have impressed the indigenous peoples and there may have been some influence on the future design of their boats. Just a thought. cu -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net]On Behalf Of richard Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 1999 1:01 AM To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subject: [Paddlewise] West Greenland Hull Design Bob, Not having seen the Viking boat you mentioned I can't make a comparison. According to what I have read and heard from different reliable sources, the kayak migrated eastward from Alaska with the nomadic hunters about 1000 AD and reached Greenland a few hundred years later. The kayaks that came from Alaska at that time are thought to have evolved from some type of decked canoe. East of Greenland, only the Irish were known to have seagoing skin boats. It's not impossible that other ancient cultures with similar needs in similar circumstances could have evolved a craft similar to the Greenland kayak. The true hallmark of a West Greenland Style kayak is it's hard chine, slab sided, low shear construction. I've noticed that more and more manufacturers are coming out with " Greenland style " kayaks, but if they don't have these features (at least full length hard chines) they are not true Greenland design. The decks of Greenland kayaks vary in design, but the hull designs pretty much always exhibit these three features. Richard Malarich *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
The features I am rather naively referring to are the aesthetically upswept ends of both the Viking boats and the West Greenland craft. Your point about the "Greenland Style" boats is well taken. cu *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Bob wrote; >If the Vikings actually "Discovered" the new world around 1000 they probably >would have interacted with the locals along the way. I'm sure a boat load of >Vikings would have impressed the indigenous peoples and there may have been >some influence on the future design of their boats. Just a thought. What Bob says could have validity but we don't know nor do we have any artefacts that support an influence or no influence. Eugene Arima (personal communication) says that the Inuit tended towards conservatism and endeavoured to retain their cultural identities. He felt this applied to the kayaks because the regional differences persisted despite contact between groups. Each time I read books about the Inuit boats I am struck by the magnitude of the assumptions made by the writers. Granted, few had any knowledge of hydrodynamics or the history of naval architecture and that may explain why they arrived at "facts" woven from faulty or incomplete observations. So, the upswept ends may have existed before the Vikings arrived. The professor might even suggest that the Inuit discovered Scandinavia and that the Vikings copied the Inuit boats. Difficult knowing who and what influenced who and what. The research for my book on Inuit kayaks has unearthed a lot of this kind of thing and the temptation to make a tenuous connection does get strong. Sort of like the various conspiracy theories where one ties a lot of coincidences together in hopes of proving a pre-conceived idea. For example, some believe that the Irish predated the Vikings so one could conclude that the Greenland Inuit copied their hide covered boats and adapted the construction to meet their needs. Thus, the Irish may have invented the sea kayak and, instead of migrating eastward it migrated westward to the Aleuts. Sound silly? Not to the fellow that suggested it to me. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Ralph wrote; (SNIP) > >Don't get me wrong. I think the models are just fine. The Aleut is >actually a better boat than the Greenland (I mean the Folbot models in >both cases. :-)) Folbots are good reliable boats, etc. I would like >them better if they had names such as the Charleston, the Carolina, etc. Oh, Yes indeed. What about the "Snot and Rags" sea kayak (a tribute to L. Francis Herreshoff's comment about fiberglass boats. :-) Or, maybe the "Flippen und Rollen" Sea kayak for German paddlers. :-) I like the Redneck for all those who forget to wear their Tilley hats and drink beer at camp. :-) I see a great new world of appropriately named sea kayaks. We could work on the canoe people too. God knows I am sick of all those silly Indian names for canoes that Canadian canoe manufacturers come up with. Surprised the Indians don't sue for defamation of character or something. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John Winters wrote: > > I see a great new world of appropriately named sea kayaks. We could work on > the canoe people too. God knows I am sick of all those silly Indian names > for canoes that Canadian canoe manufacturers come up with. Surprised the > Indians don't sue for defamation of character or something. > Interesting statement from somebody whose boats are sold with names like Q400XG. :) Not that I'm so creative. Both of my canoes were built by Mohawk in Florida, although I think the original Mohawks lived in New York. The model names are not so inappropriate, though, since the Viper's hard chines will bite, and I've been bitten several times while lollygagging. And the Edge...well, 'nuff said. Steve -- Test Scoring & Reporting Services Sometimes, you never can University of Georgia always tell what you Athens, GA 30602-5593 least expect the most. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
http://www.sciam.com/1998/0298issue/0298hale.html This is an interesting site on the Viking Longships. cu *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Steve wrote; ->> >> I see a great new world of appropriately named sea kayaks. We could work on >> the canoe people too. God knows I am sick of all those silly Indian names >> for canoes that Canadian canoe manufacturers come up with. Surprised the >> Indians don't sue for defamation of character or something. >> >Interesting statement from somebody whose boats are sold with names like >Q400XG. :) Not that I'm so creative. > I design them but the builders get to name them. Seems like a fair distribution of responsibility. :-) Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 1/5/1999 7:34:18 PM EST, John Winters wrote: << I design them but the builders get to name them. Seems like a fair distribution of responsibility. :-) >> Hunka Junka 1, Hunka Junka 2, Hunka Junka 3, etc, etc. Sounds Indian enough to me to sell. The number being the amount of "river bar gravel" needed to keep an empty boat afloat and in the upright position until sold to an unsuspecting client on the back corner of a used car lot. Dandged i am glad John Winters has a good since of humor! <grin> John LeBlanc. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>From Steve Cramer >Both of my canoes were built by Mohawk in Florida, although I think the >original Mohawks lived in New York. The model names are not so >inappropriate, though, since the Viper's hard chines will bite, and I've >been bitten several times while lollygagging. And the Edge...well, 'nuff >said. > i've been told that Gene Jensen designed some canoes for Mohawk... one was a touring 2 seater, the other a solo. (during the '70s?) anyone know how to id Jensen's Mohawk canoes? bye bye bliven *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Larry Bliven wrote: > > i've been told that Gene Jensen designed some canoes for Mohawk... > one was a touring 2 seater, the other a solo. (during the '70s?) > > anyone know how to id Jensen's Mohawk canoes? The Jensen-designed solo is the Challenger. A friend of mine uses one of these on our wilderness river trips in northern Canada. It is an excellent design for this purpose. Properly outfitted, it can handle whitewater up through Class III (even when fully loaded). My friend has never capsized in this boat. It is also reasonably efficient on flatwater. I've paddled one on a number of occasions, and it's an excellent design. Of course, Mohawk has discontinued it. They have replaced it with an "improved" design (the Odyssey), which has the same dimensions (14'2" long, with about a 30" beam and a 14" depth at center). Hopefully they didn't mess around with the hull below waterline--it looks like they just added some tucks up near the gunwales. I haven't paddled the new one. Jensen designed some great canoes. Dan Hagen Bellingham, Washington *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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