I'm a sea kayaker and I've narrowed my search down to 2 models at this time: Uniden HH940 & Icom M3A. (If you have any recommendations for others.......). The basic difference between the 2 are power output & power source options. The HH940 is 1w output and rechagable, the M3A is 1/5w output and will take alkalines. Also, the HH940 is listed as "weatherproof". Does anyone have any opinions as to how significant these choices are? How much difference will a 5w output make, how likely is it that I will need it? I like the idea of being able to use alkalines, how long will a rechargable typically last: enough for 5-6 days use? I've seen varying claims as to "weathertight" "weatherproof" "weather resistant"; how credible are these claims? -- Rob Nevitt blumarbl_at_pacbell.net 122d42'27"W 38d26'58"N (Santa Rosa, CA) ils.bytebeam.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Rob Nevitt wrote: > > I'm a sea kayaker and I've narrowed my search down to 2 models at this > time: Uniden HH940 & Icom M3A. [snip] > > The basic difference between the 2 are power output & power source > options. The HH940 is 1w output and rechagable, the M3A is 1/5w output > and will take alkalines. Also, the HH940 is listed as "weatherproof". > > Does anyone have any opinions as to how significant these choices are? > How much difference will a 5w output make, how likely is it that I will > need it? I like the idea of being able to use alkalines, how long will > a rechargable typically last: enough for 5-6 days use? I've seen > varying claims as to "weathertight" "weatherproof" "weather resistant"; > how credible are these claims? 1. Weatherproof means it will die if you dunk it. "Submersible" may mean the mfr will replace it when it dies, or it MAY mean the radio is truly waterproof. Very difficult to achieve in a HH VHF, especially one powered by alkalines (see below). 2. 5W will not be enough when you really need to reach out. 1W is plenty 90 % of the time. Because we work on the deck -- so the antenna is only 3 ft off the water -- the range of a HH VHF is very limited while you are in your cockpit. If you are on the beach, you can improve your range enormously by moving higher and/or using one of the more efficient antennas. 3. NiCads suck for HH VHF's, **if the HH VHF is your ONLY means for summoning help.** Folks on powerboats or sailboats, who typically have a 25W VHF unit and a good antenna placement, typically only use the HH VHF for docking and incidental communication boat-to-boat when they are on deck (sipping margaritas, I hope!). Nicads eventually lose their capacity, and subtly, so you may think you have a good set, but do not. Unless you ONLY use the radio for day trips, alkalines are a much better power source. If the set in the radio dies, you can just plug in the spares you carry. A spare Nicad pack may be just as bad as the original. (Been there; done that; I used to fly RC model airplanes, and NiCad failure was by far the dominant cause of equipment-related crashes. If you intend to **rely** on a NiCad pack, you must cycle it and test it regularly. Otherwise, it may develop a problem, unbeknownst to you.) The other downside to NiCad power is that the capacity is very limited -- for other than a one- or two-day trip, it is likely that you will not have enough capacity with just one battery pack. OTOH, some folks on long trips have successfully maintained their NiCads by a solar-powered charging setup.) The downside to alkaline power is that it is extremely diffcult to make a battery pack which takes alkalines that is SUBMERSIBLE. Bottom line: you MUST keep the radio in a radio bag, and you have to protect the radio bag from abrasion or puncture. 4. ICOM is a very respected brand. I favor the MC 10A, which is cheaper than the model you are looking at, but I think the M3A may have a more compact profile (a real advantage). Whichever you buy, have it checked out at the local marine electronics service center. Rodgers Marine, in Portland, OR, will do this as part of the purchase, if you buy the radio there. They do mail order. Not affiliated with ICOM, or Rodgers Marine. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I had been planning on staying out of the recent rounds of the handheld VHF debate, but the advice that Dave Kruger and others are putting out is, IMHO, just plain wrong. First, I should make it clear that my recommendations are based on the assumption that the number-one priority is to have a radio/antenna combination that provides the best possible chance of getting through in an emergency. Maximizing your chances requires a good antenna, maximum achievable power, and minimizing the risk of water damage. Dave's recommendations will deprive you of all three, as I explain below. (1) The antenna issue: The use of a waterproof baggie precludes the use of a decent antenna during an emergency. The rubber-ducky antennas have very limited range in comparison with a telescoping antenna. Assuming that you are not in a position during the emergency to safely remove your radio from the baggie (a reasonable assumption!) you are stuck without the ability to use a decent antenna just when you are in the greatest need. On the other hand, a submersible radio can be fitted and used with a telescoping antenna, even if you are in the water and subject to periodic dousings. This will greatly extend your range. (2) The power issue: The maximum transmit power for handhelds is 5 watts. But you cannot achieve this with alkalines unless they are brand new, since they suffer from significant voltage drop during use. Icom, for example, does *not* claim that the M3A is a 5-watt radio when used with alkalines. See their website--they make it clear that the 5-watt rating applies *only* when using NiCads. I have two Icoms that can use alkalines (an M7 and an M15), and I have spoken to Icom on this issue. They have made it perfectly clear to me that they do not rate their radios as 5 watts when used with alkalines. They ought to know. There is a reason that NiCads are used in all high-end handhelds. They have consistent power output. Dave is absolutely correct, however, regarding the need to "babysit" NiCads. They have to be carefully maintained and tested! With modern equipment, however, this really is not all that difficult to do, and it is worth it given their superior voltage performance. Dave is also correct that NiCads have lower energy density, but he greatly overstates the extent of this problem. The energy density of alkalines is about one-third higher than for NiCads. Adding 33 percent (or even 50 percent) to the weight of the batteries that you carry for your trip is not an issue for sea kayaking. As for the frequency with which you have to change your batteries on a trip, it should be noted that not all NiCads are the wimpy-capacity things that Dave has described. The high-capacity NiCads that I use in my M15 have three times the capacity of the standard NiCads used in older-generation handhelds. In short, if you are willing to expend some effort in terms of maintenance and testing, NiCads provide superior performance. (They also produce a lot less waste, and are cheaper if you use your radio often.) If you decide that you do not want the hassles of NiCads (in spite of their superior performance), this does not mean that you can't get a submersible radio. I really don't understand the point that alkaline battery packs are harder to seal. Every alkaline (AA) battery pack that I have seen seals in exactly the same way as the NiCad packs that they replace. (See, for example, the very latest "submersible"--not "waterproof"--designs by Standard and Apelco, both of which have a manufacturer-supplied alkaline battery pack.) For most of these radios, there is essentially no difference in the case itself or in the sealing mechanism between the NiCad pack and the AA pack. For those radios that do not have a manufacturer-supplied AA-battery pack (such as the M15), the conventional approach to building one makes use of the case and seal from the NiCad pack, simply replacing the "innards". There are some radios, such as the Icom M1, that have an usual battery pack that cannot replaced with a AA-pack, but these are the exceptions. (3) The issue of water damage I have used many different baggies from various manufacturers for various electronic devices (VHF, cell phone, GPS), and a majority of them have developed leaks. While some "submersible" radios also seem to have an unacceptably high failure rate, others (such as the M15 and the Navico handhelds) have excellent reputations in this regard, with performance significantly exceeding the manufacturers' minimum standards for submersibility. With either approach, you need to test your equipment prior to a trip by dunking it for a significant period of time. Make sure that the water is very cold, so that the radio is subjected to a large temperature swing (this is necessary to really test the seals). The first time you do this with an expensive radio there is some trepidation, but it must be done. (Better to find out before you need it.) If you do this, then whichever approach you take (submersible baggie or submersible radio) you know that it isn't leaking at the start of the trip. The question then becomes, which is more likely to develop a failure subsequent to testing, the baggie or the radio seals? In my opinion, based on the number of baggie failures that I have had (many) versus radio-seal failures (none), I will go with the latter. I do believe that my M15 is more rugged than a plastic baggie. If you really want security, carry a back up. This is what I do. It doesn't add all that much weight. Well, that's the case for submersibles and for NiCads. (Which are two separate issues.) To each his or her own. Dan Hagen Bellingham, Washington *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Dan Hagen wrote: > > I had been planning on staying out of the recent rounds of the handheld > VHF debate, but the advice that Dave Kruger and others are putting out > is, IMHO, just plain wrong. Dan Hagen's post has an enormous amount of good advice in it (all but the pejorative part has been snipped). A couple small disagreements and corrections: 1. I believe you've got to have $400 to spend to get a decent submersible radio. I believe the gain an extendable whip can achieve amounts to only another couple miles of range, *if you are broadcasting from the cockpit,* or, (worse) *while swimming.* The typical rubber ducky antenna is much less susceptible to damage, IMHO, and would survive the thrashing inherent in a capsize better than an extendable whip. Dan, have you got some specific equipment recommendations on the radio / antenna combination you favor? I'd be eager to know what works for you. 2. Dan's experience with NiCads is more up-to-date than mine. I suspect he is talking about NiMH batteries, which have an energy/battery (equivalent diameter) about 50% greater than ordinary NiCads, IIRC. I suspect we are putting a pretty fine point on this pencil, but I had understood that NiMH batteries were more susceptible to loss of charge than NiCads. However, I would yield to anyone who has the data. In any case, Dan's point that one has to monitor the NiCad's jives with my experience -- and there *are* some slick little cycling units to keep track of the battery's condition. Dan, do you recall what the cost would be for one of those units? 3. Regarding the difficulty of obtaining a truly waterproof alkaline battery - equipped radio, the problem I've noted is that the seams which separate to allow replacement of the alkalines are tough to make truly waterproof. Dan, do you have experience with this? I have not seen an alkaline pack which would survive dunking. Your post indicates you have. I agree that the battery pack - radio body seals are the equivalent of the NiCad variations. It's the seals which close up the alkaline pack which seem cheesy to me. Thanks to Dan for an informative post. I always appreciate authoritative information, especially when presented in the thoughtful and deliberate manner Dan achieves. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 1/10/99 7:44:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, dkruger_at_pacifier.com writes: << 2. 5W will not be enough when you really need to reach out. 1W is plenty 90 % of the time. Because we work on the deck -- so the antenna is only 3 ft off the water -- the range of a HH VHF is very limited while you are in your cockpit. >> To Dave's point: line of sight is definitely the issue for sea kayakers; the only real advantage of the five watt unit is that it will punch through other radio traffic better, and, if you're worried about getting help when you need it, punching through traffic is not the issue --- contacting someone is. Also to Dave's assesment of "weatherproof" --- don't go with anything less than "JIS-7 Submersible" unless you really want to rely on a plastic bag to keep your radio dry inside and functional. (Another good feature to look for is "weather watch" which will allow you to monitor any weather emergency information in your area while remaining on a tactical frequency.) For what it's worth, the Apelco 520 is JIS-7 and has the weather feature, as well; its poor cousin, the 510 continues to serve me well. Defender Marine <www.DefenderUS.com>, for example, has the 520 for $265, up $30 from the '98 catalog; they're usually a good indication of the best or near-best price on something like this. Standard disclaimer: no connection with Apelco, Defender, yadda-yadda-yadda. Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>4. ICOM is a very respected brand. I favor the MC 10A, which is cheaper >than the model you are looking at, but I think the M3A may have a more >compact profile (a real advantage). Whichever you buy, have it checked out >at the local marine electronics service center. Rodgers Marine, in >Portland, OR, will do this as part of the purchase, if you buy the radio >there. They do mail order. Hey Group, ICOM is still claiming on their website that the M1 is waterproof even though mine failed. They serviced it under warranty, and sent me a note explaining that it is only 'water resistant'. Which was quite annoying to hear after spending some big bucks for something I need to depend on. The M3, which some people here have mentioned as waterproof is listed on their website as 'water resistant'. Here is the copy from the M1: http://www.icomamerica.com/marine/handhelds/ Submersible JIS-7 rating (withstands submersion for 30 minutes at depth of 1 meter) Waterproof protection you can count on! Waterproof construction The IC-M1 is waterproof! Designed for reliable operation under severe marine conditions. Torrential downpours, heavy seas - no problem for this transceiver. -Patrick PS Are there any after market solutions for alkaline battery packs for the M1? ICOM doesn't appear to make one for the M1. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Patrick Maun pmaun_at_bitstream.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Patrick Maun wrote: > > Hey Group, > > ICOM is still claiming on their website that the M1 is waterproof even > though mine failed. They serviced it under warranty, and sent me a note > explaining that it is only 'water resistant'. Which was quite annoying to > hear after spending some big bucks for something I need to depend on. The > M3, which some people here have mentioned as waterproof is listed on their > website as 'water resistant'. Patrick is absolutely correct. I visited the ICOM website over the weekend and was struck by the submersible JIS-7 claim. Seeing this email, I called ICOM technical people and the guy who answered the phone said it was not submersible but could take a dunking. And if it failed in a dunking, it would be repaired under warranty. I pointed out the website statement but the fellow just kind of pretended I was speaking Yiddish. I did verify that there has been no model change since its introduction that would have made its relative water vulnerability any different. In answer to my question about using a waterproof bag with the radio he said an emphatic "I would!" When I was at Goldberg Marine (an E&B affiliate now but formerly an independent marine shop right in the middle of Manhattan), the clerk said the same thing about it not being submersible but saying the the Standard and Apelco were more reliable in a submersion. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 1/11/1999 10:49:59 AM EST, BDenton_at_aquagulf.com writes: << 4. Optimum performance from a fiberglass kayak would be obtained by mounting a 1/2 wave whip somewhere on the boat. The 1/2 wave performs well without a ground and should dramatically out perform an antenna mounted on the radio. A mag mount with a piece of ferrous metal under the deck or hatch cover may do the trick. >> Bob, I think this is exactly what I suggested only adding a 25 watt radio with battery to boot. I have used a simple 1/4 wave SS whip (approximately 18" long) very successfully for years with marine VHF in appropriate applications. The 1/2 wave whip you refer to is much more "powerful" which is really not a good choice of words, but we will use it here to simplify things. The advantage of the whip over the ducky by my experimentation is overwhelming. In fact, before we had cell phones available locally, I used to spend a lot of time in the marshes. A few mechanical breakdowns and nights spent there caused me to look at VHF as the price was coming down from $500.00 +. I bought a 25 watt and used it with much success. To simplify matters when going with friends, I mounted it inside a 50 cal ammo box with a new motorcycle battery from Wal Mart in with it. A Shakespeare 40" 1/2 wave whip mounted to the outside of the ammo can was my link to the world through the marine operator. I first used the 1/4 wave whip, but since switched to the 1/2 wave after discovering it's advantages. Of course, if you really want a good antennas, buy one of the $200.00 Co-phased jobs. The marsh I go into is bordered by the intracoastal waterway and this gave me access to all it's traffic via radio. Cell phone now has replaced my "link to the whole world" but not my carrying my 25W portable marine. I still carry it. I do have a 1 & 5 W HH, but seldom use it unless it is to talk to another member of my fishing party. I give them the HH and I got the portable. I got this idea from the radios we used with Texas Parks & Wildlife Dept as a summer biologist. They had enormous batteries about the same size as a ammo box attached and we could talk all night without using up all the "juice" I have found NiCads handy, but ONLY if I had a spare battery pack AND a way to recharge it with me. Not having that, I don't have a lot of faith in a small battery pack for when push comes to shove. I do carry my HH with me in canoe or kayak WHEN in range of CG or Marine Operator towers OR to receive weather transmissions. I find that my HH receives WX at a much greater distance than the $ 29.99 Radio Shack jobs which one would expect since it has a much more discriminating receiver. One thing to keep in mind with marine HH is if you are out of range, "you ain't gonna talk to anyone!" John LeBlanc *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 1/11/1999 11:39:07 AM EST, dan_at_hagen.net writes: << This is true if you are comparing, say, AA's to AA's, but that is not relevant to my comparison of VHF alternatives. Let me use a specific example. I have a radio (Icom M7) that has both a manufacturer-supplied NiCad CM-89 battery pack (which does NOT use AA's) and a manufacturer-supplied AA pack for use with alkalines. The CM-89 pack is rated at 9.6 volts, whereas 6 AA alkalines that fit in the manufacturer-supplied AA holder produce 6 x 1.5volts for a total of 9.0 volts (when the alkalines are new) Of course it is less than 9.0 as the voltage drops through use. I asked Icom about the output of this radio when used with alkalines (since they don't publish a figure) and they said it would be LESS than 5 watts. I think that they are correct. >> Rated voltage and produced voltage is TWO very DIFFERENT things! The final say is to take a meter, hit the TX key and read the final output output. Theoretical and rated is so much rhetoric. One needs actual measured facts. agreed, not many people have this capability, but if it all means as much as the posts indicate adn the price paid for a HH is up to $400.00, is the cost of an actual test too much? i can tell you my car will do 100 MPH, but if it will only do 80 it will not win the race against one that does 90 will it? John *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>Thanks for sending me the detailed info on VHF radios from the archives. I >feel like I walked in on the tail end of a conversation. What type of VHF >Radio does Rober Cline like and what is an M15? > >Thank you. - Larry I am using the submersible Apelco 520. I chose this because it is (1) a submersible, which as been reported by list members to be reliable and (2) it can also take standard AAA batteries in the event my batteries discharge while out on the water. Negatives: (1) This radio is a bit larger than the Icom Submersible; (2) there may be some better models forthcoming; (3) the optional "rapid charger" that has a "discharger" which would help avoid "battery memory" during recharging...for the Apelco 520 does not work, if that is an issue at all Interestingly, the 520 won't even fit into the "520 rapid charger." Robert *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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