Hmmm, this thing regarding sit-on-tops is getting to be an interesting conversation. I don't know how many of you missed this but John Winters and I agree!! The last time we agreed on anything was regarding the thumbs down on the sponson man. So that puts us on the side of the angels. Some comments to the naysayers: 1. **Regarding speed, designs, etc. of sit-on-tops** This always happens when any discussion come up on something like this. Immediately people envision some highly tuned kevlar skinny long sea kayak and hold up everything else to that standard. Let's face it there are a whole lot of sea kayaks that have no more claim to that standard than do SOTs. We are not comparing Nordkapps and SOTs. We are comparing run-of-the-mill medium wide, plastic sea kayaks with plastic SOTs. In case no one has noticed, plastic sea kayaks account for most of the models and most of the sales of hardshell boats. A good number of SOTs are as fast as a lot of hardshell sea kayaks. Besides, who is racing? And what about what Kirk Olsen says about surf skiis which are SOTs. What sea kayak is faster than it? 2. **Camping, etc.** Again, we are immediately looking at some epitome of long distance sea faring. How many of you have really camped out of your sea kayak. I bet less than half. The other half don't need all that volume to put things into...they are day paddlers. If you really want to camp, use a canoe. No sea kayak is as efficient at camping as a canoe. It will swallow up large Coleman coolers, habachis, small kitchen sinks. 3. **Cold weather.** Sure a closed boat is better in the cold. But what about the other months and months of paddling in warm to hot weather that marks the waters that most paddlers on this listserver probably ply? A SOT is fine for these, in fact, probably more comfortable. In moderate temperatures, you can wear a shortie wetsuit or a combo of short jacket and shorts from LLBean, the Hydrosports series. Will keep you feeling warm and dry when splashed and in the wind. 4. **Rescues.** Notice what was said about getting back on a surf ski. 10 seconds. The same is true of just about any SOT. As to the point about upper body strength needed to do this with a SOT, if a person lacks the body strength to get back on a SOT, they would not likely succeed with a closed boat either or deal with emptying one out. Among arguments I haven't heard but I will raise and comment on are: A. You can't have the fun of building your own SOT. Building your own boat with kits or plans from Nick Schade and others certainly is something that is drawing more sea kayakers because of the satisfaction of crafting your own vessel and the aesthetics of wood. But where is it written that you could not make your own wood SOT. I can see a most stunning looking wood SOT with mahogany inlays, smooth sensuous curved seats and foot wells. Imagine all that stretch of wood with no interruption of the long lines for something so prosaic as a cockpit rim and opening, or a sprayskirt covering a large chunk of the craftsman's handy work. B. You can't have the fun of rolling, etc with a SOT. Well you could if you wish, with thigh straps as was mentioned here which gives you more control and contact with the SOT if that is important to you or needed for rough conditions. But anyway, I thought the purpose of a sea kayak was to go out and enjoy the sense of your body propelling you through open expanses of water. Rolling is not the purpose of sea kayaking. Kayaking is, i.e. going some place along a shoreline or making some crossing to an island. Rolling is only if things go wrong. Well, as you can see, what gets me passionate (aside from looking at Julia Roberts) is standing up for things that are misunderstood or looked down upon. I see SOTs in the same vein as I see folding kayaks. They are a lot better than people give them credit for. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, 24 Feb 1999 rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: > Hmmm, this thing regarding sit-on-tops is getting to be an interesting > conversation. > > Some comments to the naysayers: > > 1. **Regarding speed, designs, etc. of sit-on-tops** > We are not comparing Nordkapps and SOTs. We are comparing > run-of-the-mill medium wide, plastic sea kayaks with plastic SOTs. My grumble is the readily available SOTs are roughly the equivalent of a Keowee. > Besides, who is racing? Some of are, and we should be ignored because we are highly opinionated ;-) > 3. **Cold weather.** Sure a closed boat is better in the cold. But > what about the other months and months of paddling in warm to hot > weather that marks the waters that most paddlers on this listserver > probably ply? A SOT is fine for these, in fact, probably more > comfortable. If I had been shopping for a boat when I demoed the Heritage SOT (called Hop on Top when I demoed them), I would have seriously considered buying one. I paddle during the offseason so I like having a closed boat. For those people in a warmer climate, or warm weather paddlers, a good SOT may be a better choice than a closed boat. Sacrilege, but I'm a canoeist at heart ;-) > B. You can't have the fun of rolling, etc with a SOT. Well you could > if you wish, with thigh straps as was mentioned here which gives you > more control and contact with the SOT if that is important to you or > needed for rough conditions. But anyway, I thought the purpose of a sea > kayak was to go out and enjoy the sense of your body propelling you > through open expanses of water. Rolling is not the purpose of sea > kayaking. Kayaking is, i.e. going some place along a shoreline or > making some crossing to an island. Rolling is only if things go wrong. I mentioned that a well outfitted SOT could be rolled to show the level of control that I had. The thigh strap that I used were wonderful and resulted in a fit that was as good as my PinTail. I disagree that rolling is only if things go wrong. I like to roll. Hell, I joined the local whitewater club so that I could go to the rolling sessions during the winter. I think that an important part of paddling is knowing what you and your boat can and can not do. For me rolling is simply part of testing where the limits of a boat are. kirk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
My local importer sells double SOTs to fire brigades for rescue operations! Like when people are floating/swimming in ice... Reasons: they do not take so much space as aluminium boats, are lighter, and take hell of a lot of rope to the deck. I think guys using them are having heavy duty drysuits (being professional divers), but I would not like to try it here anyway! And, earnestly. SOTs DO look rather silly, donīt they ;-) ??? Cheers, Ari Saarto "Home of the Traditional & Famous Scandinavian Skinny-dipping [TM]" Finland - Europe GSM +358 - 50 - 526 5892 fax. +358 - 3 - 828 2815 e-mail: asaarto_at_lpt.fi *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Uhh, Ralph, you really sure provoked me into this ;-) > Hmmm, this thing regarding sit-on-tops is getting to be an interesting > conversation. ... > > Some comments to the naysayers: ... > > 2. **Camping, etc.** Again, we are immediately looking at some epitome > of long distance sea faring. How many of you have really camped out of > your sea kayak. I bet less than half. The other half don't need all > that volume to put things into...they are day paddlers. If you really > want to camp, use a canoe. No sea kayak is as efficient at camping as a > canoe. It will swallow up large Coleman coolers, habachis, small > kitchen sinks. ..yup. And as being open are not as seaworthy as kayaks. No picking, I do suppose that you know what I mean... No problems about packing here: I do MOST of my kayaking here because I do want to leave other people behind for two to five days! And surely I am not carrying kitchen sinks with me then :-P > 3. **Cold weather.** Sure a closed boat is better in the cold. But > what about the other months and months of paddling in warm to hot > weather that marks the waters that most paddlers on this listserver > probably ply? ohmigod! A New Yorker believing that there would be warm summers for all... Hmm - do most of us paddlers on this list really have from warm to hot months? I mean, is this actually CALIFORNIA uber ALLES ;-) ????? > > A. You can't have the fun of building your own SOT. Building your own > boat with kits or plans from Nick Schade and others certainly is > something that is drawing more sea kayakers because of the satisfaction > of crafting your own vessel and the aesthetics of wood. But where is it > written that you could not make your own wood SOT. I can see a most > stunning looking wood SOT with mahogany inlays, smooth sensuous curved > seats and foot wells. Imagine all that stretch of wood with no > interruption of the long lines for something so prosaic as a cockpit rim > and opening, or a sprayskirt covering a large chunk of the craftsman's > handy work. > > > Well, as you can see, what gets me passionate (aside from looking at > Julia Roberts) is standing up for things that are misunderstood or > looked down upon. I see SOTs in the same vein as I see folding kayaks. > They are a lot better than people give them credit for. > > ralph diaz Ok Ralph. I believe you. Next time I am starting my season in May in something like 34 to 36 F waters I am hoping I would have either a canoe (full of six-packs, bottle of Isla Negra red and a kitchen sink) or a SOT with sun-oil to crease my drysuit...see my other mail. Cheers, Ari Saarto "Home of the Traditional & Famous Scandinavian Skinny-dipping [TM]" Finland - Europe GSM +358 - 50 - 526 5892 fax. +358 - 3 - 828 2815 e-mail: asaarto_at_lpt.fi *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> A. You can't have the fun of building your own SOT. Building your own > boat with kits or plans from Nick Schade and others certainly is > something that is drawing more sea kayakers because of the satisfaction > of crafting your own vessel and the aesthetics of wood. But where is it > written that you could not make your own wood SOT. Shawn Baker posted this to Nick's BBS a little while back: http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/cgi-bin/KBbbs.cgi?read=11357 Woody *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
From: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com Date sent: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:08:02 -0800 To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subject: [Paddlewise] SOTs uber Alles > > Hmmm, this thing regarding sit-on-tops is getting to be an interesting > conversation. > As usual, Ralph is getting us into some interesting stuff. Without rehashing the whole deal, a few points. - SOTs are fun, durable, interesting in surf, and generally good exercise. - My Ocean Kayak "Scrambler" has two VCP-like hatches made by Gaspachi which allow a reasonable amount of stuff in small and long drybags to be stowed internally. - The thigh straps allow the same at-one-with-the-boat experience that I can get in my claustrophobia-inducing VCP Pintail, and make it very easy to roll the boat for "roto-cooling" while paddling in cold water in a dry suit. The back support --- the cheapie version on my boat --- along with the thigh straps, allows me to crash around in bumpy stuff without being dumped out if a large wave were to catch me frontally. But if I were to be knocked out of the boat in surf --- not that that's ever happend, of course --- I could simply bounce back onto the boat, slide into the straps and start paddling. - The "cockpit" is self-bailing, and needs no pump. Yeah, it's noisy and clattery in chop, and it doesn't have the visceral appeal of a Julia Robert or of a Sealution --- agreed on both points! --- but it's a viable option and a nice addition to anyone's fleet at $400! Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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