Has anyone seen the kayaks that are being carried by Costco? I have only seen a picture in the newspaper. They are fiberglass, with an extra large closed deck cockpit (like a keowee) and a rudder. About 15' long I think. I would like to know what the performance of these boats is like, and also how much they will cost. I am worried that this might lead to problems with total novices buying an advanced kayak with no instruction or practical information. When we buy kayaks from kayak stores, the salespeople always give out information on required sagety gear and stress the importance of instruction. There is a lot of basic knowledge that we take for granted that the average Costco buyer would never know, nor be able to learn from the salepeople at Costco. Am I wrong to think that Costco could be directly biasing the kayaking fatality statistics in the wrong direction? For example, the latest Sea kayaker magazine (april) has a good article about a harrowing, near death experience (i.e. a safety article). The person involved had been given a sea kayak for his 50th birthday, and taught himself how to paddle with the aid a couple of viewings of sea kayaking video. Even though he learned about the importance of practicing self-recues, he did not learn some really essential things that led directly to his troubles: 1. Dressing for immersion 2. Listening to the marine weather forecast (he read a newspaper forecast) 3. knowledge of tides and currents 4. knowledge of how sea condtions can change with different locations or currents, or in the lee of an island or point of land. 5. The importance of practicing rescues in rough water. 6. Having redundant flotation in bulkheaded compartments. It's a really good article, and worth reading. But seriously, how many Costco derived kayakers are going to learn about rescues and other aspects of closed-deck boating? I think this sea kayaker article describes a person who would self-learn MUCH more than the average costco shopper. Of course, the counter question is how many costco derived kayakers will ever get themselves into such a situation where those skills are necessary for survival? And will costco kayakers be any more likely to get into trouble than kayakers who get their boats from other sources? Be safe, Kevin ___________________ / Kevin Whilden \ |Dept. of Geosciences \___ |University of Washington \ |kwhilden_at_u.washington.edu| \________________________/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> Kevin wrote: > the importance of instruction. There is a lot of basic knowledge that we > take for granted that the average Costco buyer would never know, nor be > able to learn from the salepeople at Costco. Am I wrong to think that > Costco could be directly biasing the kayaking fatality statistics in the > wrong direction? The same applies to REI selling Sea Kayaks, and paddling equipment in general for that matter. But we can not tell Costco nor REI not to sell kayaks, as much as we can tell them not to sell bycicles. In the USA it is just a matter of them getting sued after several hundreds of people die. Then, REI, Costsco, and others would hire Ken Star to defend them and convince the judge that the value of a boaters life is not high enough to justify any effort in educating the public; just like he did for Chrysler in the gas tank issue. After all, why should buying a sea kayak be more difficult than buying a gun? - Julio p.s. Should we bring up the certification issue again? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I think I need to know a little more in order to understand your point of view. Kevin Wrote: > When we buy kayaks from kayak stores, the > salespeople always give out information on required sagety gear and stress > the importance of instruction. There is a lot of basic knowledge that we > take for granted that the average Costco buyer would never know, nor be > able to learn from the salepeople at Costco. Am I wrong to think that > Costco could be directly biasing the kayaking fatality statistics in the > wrong direction? Would selling kits or plans for stitch & glue or stripper kayaks fall into this category as well? As a novice myself, I received zero safety related information in the kit I bought. Based on this, I think there might be enough information available to determine if there is a higher incidence of fatalities in kit builders who receive no initial safety information vs. commercially built boats sold in kayaking stores. > Has anyone seen the kayaks that are being carried by Costco? I have only > seen a picture in the newspaper. They are fiberglass, with an extra large > closed deck cockpit (like a keowee) and a rudder. About 15' long I think. > I would like to know what the performance of these boats is like, and also > how much they will cost. I am worried that this might lead to problems > with total novices buying an advanced kayak with no instruction or > practical information. I hope you didn't mean to include cost in your concern. > It's a really good article, and worth reading. But seriously, how many > Costco derived kayakers are going to learn about rescues and other aspects > of closed-deck boating? I think this sea kayaker article describes a > person who would self-learn MUCH more than the average costco shopper. Of > course, the counter question is how many costco derived kayakers will ever > get themselves into such a situation where those skills are necessary for > survival? And will costco kayakers be any more likely to get into trouble > than kayakers who get their boats from other sources? I think you ask some valid questions...But I'm conflicted in my views on this. Some of them are selfish. For example, if kayaking becomes more "main stream", then costs will likely go down. $300-$600 for a dry suit? $100 - $300 for a paddling jacket? $80 for a length of rope and fanny pack? We're lucky anybody owns any safety equipment at all. Making kayaking available only to those who can afford high dollar safety equipment is wrong. The flip side is I'm willing to pay what I need to feel adequately prepared. Undecided on the issue, Woody *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Not sure where this thread got started --- just seemed to appear in full bloom in my mailbox --- but I'd like to make a comment or two. We are a litigious society as Julio pointed out --- at least here in the U.S. McDonald's cups of coffee will burn us and kayaks will kill us, so both have disclaimers written on them. But I don't recall expecting to be taught to drive by Mr. Nissan or Mr. Ford. Those guys build cars --- other people run the driver ed programs. Some kayaking retailers go a lot further than they need to to ensure that their buyers understand that there are support groups out there which can help in training and safety --- SpringRiver here in the Baltimore-Washington area is a good example of interactive retailers --- but others don't. REI rented a bunch of sea kayaks to some "newbies" on a "beginner" trip which we in the Chesapeake Paddler Association (CPA) ran a few years back, and sent the rentals out without paddle floats. As a backup trip leader, I was pissed, told REI about it in a letter, and got a very positive letter back from the area VP, totally agreeing that they should provide floats, and pledging to do so from then on. People learn. I guess I don't agree with Woody's assumption that Chris or Nick or whoever sold him his kit also was obliged to provide safety and operational training any more than I'd fault Subaru for not teaching me to drive. It's not part of the deal. Other organizations can provide that training --- which is partly why I'm answering e-mail after midnight, having spent a bunch of hours writing a strawman program for a "newbies" workshop the CPA is putting on in April for folks who need the basics for safe operation of sea kayaks. Not trying to provoke an argument here, but I think that the manufacturers and retailers would be hard pressed to stay in business if they also were responsible for all the dumb things we do with our boats. My tired thoughts. Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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