Actually British kayaks are getting a lot lighter now than they used to be, I think it is the American market influence. I weighed some many years ago at over 75 pounds. I think there are two main reasons why British kayaks tend to be on the heavy side. Boat over boat rescues and recessed deck fittings (in a hand laid kayak). A thinner deck is more likely to flex and if it flexes it may overstress some area where the flex is too great, causing stress cracks in the gelcoat or worse. Even a tough vacuum bagged Kevlar deck will get stress cracks in the gelcoat if it flexes too much to the outside (putting the gelcoat under tension where it is folding). A thick heavy deck is a stiff deck even if built with inferior materials and methods (resin rich chopped strand mat and hand lay-up). It will stand up to a lot of pressure from boat over boat rescues--but if it fails it may fail catastrophically because resin is much more brittle than glassfiber. I think the reason they use chopped strand mat (beside lower price) is that without vacuum bagging and peel ply to remove the bag wrinkles you can't get cloth or woven roving to conform to the bumps inside created by recessed deck fittings. Chopped strand mat conforms well so instead of cutting a bunch of holes in fiberglass cloth for each recess (a nightmare) they use the chopped strand mat for the whole deck and make it thicker and heavier to make up for the weaker material. Matt Broze *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Matt Broze wrote: > > ... A thinner deck is more likely to flex and > if it flexes it may overstress some area where the flex is too great, > causing stress cracks in the gelcoat or worse. Even a tough vacuum > bagged Kevlar deck will get stress cracks in the gelcoat if it flexes > too much to the outside (putting the gelcoat under tension where it > is folding). A thick heavy deck is a stiff deck even if built with > inferior materials and methods ... Granted, but aren't there better ways of stiffening the deck, such as using light-weight core materials? I have a kevlar kayak with a reasonably stiff (but light) deck. The stiffness comes from arches (made of some sort of core material) that are glassed into the deck. I also used to have an ultralight kevlar canoe with a very stiff foam-cored floor. As with resin, some of these core materials don't add much strength, but they do add stiffness without the weight penalty. Dan Hagen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I think it a bit unfair to characterize British boats as "heavy" or unsophisticated. Some might fit that description but others do not. Kirton, for instance makes light sophisticated laminates. What we see most (Valley and Dennis) only represent a portion of the overall level of the British and European market I certainly would not like the Brits judging all of our North American kayaks based upon our poly boats. I think the heavy weights of some boats have to do with the British attitude towards paddling, I think they often look upon it as "challenging the elements" where most North Americans tend towards a less aggressive approach. They do focus a lot on rescues of the boat over boat type and that does influence their boat construction. As the Brits move more aggressively into the North American market you can expect their boats to evolve towards our preferences. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft http://home.ican.net/~735769/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John Winters wrote: > I think the heavy weights of some boats have to do with the British > attitude towards paddling, I think they often look upon it as "challenging > the elements" where most North Americans tend towards a less aggressive > approach. A couple of weeks ago I was at the Santa Cruz Surf Kayak festival. On Sunday the weather was a windy, rainy mess. The waves were choppy, broken up and prone to close outs. Virtually all the american kayakers were grumbling and complaining. Meanwhile I heard a couple of british kayakers say with genuine enthusiasm something along the lines of: "Bloody Marvelous Day!". -Berkeley Choate *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
A slightly flexible deck is only a problem if there is a much stiffer section to create stress concentrations. A deck made stiff by too much gelcoat or use of chopped strand will tend to be brittle. A blow to a stiff/brittle boat will cause many more problems than a properly designed and built flexible boat. However it is much cheaper to make a stiff/brittle boat than to construct a well-built boat that will give when stressed. The goal with the these heavy boats is to make something that will handle the typical abuse at as low a materials and labor cost as possible. One of the beauties of this system is a thick gelcoat over chopped strand will not have any cloth print-through so it will look smoother and nicer to the average buyer. It is hard to make the good quality materials and workmanship look as perfect to the uneducated eye. At 7:38 PM -0800 4/2/99, Matt Broze wrote: >Actually British kayaks are getting a lot lighter now than they used to be, >I think it is the American market influence. I weighed some many years ago >at over 75 pounds. I think there are two main reasons why British kayaks >tend to be on the heavy side. Boat over boat rescues and recessed deck >fittings (in a hand laid kayak). A thinner deck is more likely to flex and >if it flexes it may overstress some area where the flex is too great, >causing stress cracks in the gelcoat or worse. Even a tough vacuum bagged >Kevlar deck will get stress cracks in the gelcoat if it flexes too much to >the outside (putting the gelcoat under tension where it is folding). A thick >heavy deck is a stiff deck even if built with inferior materials and methods >(resin rich chopped strand mat and hand lay-up). It will stand up to a lot >of pressure from boat over boat rescues--but if it fails it may fail >catastrophically because resin is much more brittle than glassfiber. I think >the reason they use chopped strand mat (beside lower price) is that without >vacuum bagging and peel ply to remove the bag wrinkles you can't get cloth >or woven roving to conform to the bumps inside created by recessed deck >fittings. Chopped strand mat conforms well so instead of cutting a bunch of >holes in fiberglass cloth for each recess (a nightmare) they use the chopped >strand mat for the whole deck and make it thicker and heavier to make up for >the weaker material. >Matt Broze Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 10 Ash Swamp Rd Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 Schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ >>>>"It's not just Art, It's a Craft!"<<<< *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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