I loaded up the truck with kayaking stuff Friday night and amazingly, didn't forget anything. Saturday morning I made the hour drive to my put in, getting out on the water about 8:30am. I had several objectives to this little outing: See how my various body parts were functioning: Right shoulder was broken in February. I have pretty much a full range of motion back and have been working with weights again for the past couple of weeks. Left shoulder/upper chest area had an incision a couple of weeks ago but has healed nicely. Haven't done any strength work on it since February because the incision was made about the time my right shoulder healed. Dry Suit Field Test: A few weeks ago I made a brief test and discovered (to my amazement) putting the ankle gaskets over bootie tops isn't a particularly good idea as it leaves a nice channel for water to flow up the legs. I also wanted to try a self rescue with the dry suit on. GPS work: Have probably forgotten most of what I learned about the Garmin 12XL last year. Water temperature: Curiosity Before shoving off I got out the water thermometer and loaded the batteries into the GPS. I guess you're supposed to check batteries and stuff before you leave home. I had about 8 alkaline batteries from last year but the 4 I put in didn't work so I said the hell with it. I wasn't going to spend half an hour playing the battery combination game. I didn't have much perishable stuff and just had a small chart case along. I put my wallet (which has a set of car keys) and some Quaker Oats granola bars (great stuff) in the bag and put my car keys in a (shudder) PFD pocket and immediately thought of that Jack Martin guy and how he'd probably chuckle at that sight. I shoved off and laid the thermometer on the spray skirt. One thing I've noticed, is when I was first getting used to the Looksha IV stability I used a lot of butt cheek muscles to keep myself balanced. That made for a tight butt and I was thinking of hip pads to fill in the cockpit space. At the beginning of this season I'm a little wobbly but am using more thigh muscles. I guess the ole butt is gonna spread out to fill up the cockpit now so I won't need the hip pads after all. Anyway, when I finally thought to take the water temperature the thermometer was gone. Anyone care to guess water temperature in southern Maine the first of May? My guess is the mid/late 40's. It was about 2 hours into a flood tide so I paddled to a small beach about half an hour away. This beach has a pretty sharp drop off and as I waded out I was chest deep within 20-30 yards or so. I immediately deduced putting ankle gaskets over fleece socks isn't a very good idea either. Water started crawling up my leg at a slower, but steady pace and my shins started aching again. As before, when I started floating, the water moved up my hamstrings and settled around my butt. I had skipped the long johns and sock and glove liners this time and just had on Polartec 100 tops and bottoms, fleece socks and fleece driver type gloves with a leather palm. I floated around for about 10 minutes or so and was just on the wrong side of comfortable. After checking my watch (under the wrist gasket), I put my hands in the water and started paddling myself around. That lasted 5-10 seconds before the pain made me get my hands out of the water. How cold does that make the water? I'm laying on my back and take the gloves off to wring them out and the water goes right up my arm. Wearing a watch under the wrist gaskets is probably not a good thing either. BTW, this was a cheap, waterproof Timex Triathlon I wanted to test anyway since I broke the seal to change batteries. I dunked it later and it's still working. I didn't intentionally get my head or neck wet; I'll save that little thrill for some other time. The most difficult part of floating around was holding my head up. My neck was getting tired and when I got a little water on the back of my neck it really got my attention. I waded into shore to get the kayak for a self rescue attempt and decided not to inflate the paddle float on shore so I'd get a more realistic feel for things out there. In a vertical position again, more water came in through the ankle gaskets and the thought passed through my mind that I'm cold, not so much the numbing cold of the water, just cold.. There is very little wind and no waves or chop but I'm having a hard time holding onto the boat with my elbow hugging the cockpit. I slip my arm through the running line but can't keep it there as I move my hands to try to inflate the float. I finally decide the boat being empty is the problem and it's riding much higher than a swamped boat would. I get one side inflated and slip it over the paddle blade and spend a few seconds trying to snap the strap into a grommet and then find the snap. It takes 60-90 seconds to get the float on the paddle and inflated. The whole rescue is supposed to take 60 seconds. I'm cold but not shivering and don't think I'm hypothermic. I think I'm thinking rationally but realize I've made a couple of dumb moves already. I'm in a hurry now and haphazardly throw the paddle up on the aft deck behind the cockpit coaming and try to hook my foot over the float. For some reason the float is sinking and then I realize I haven't attempted to pull myself up over the cockpit and my full weight is on it. I finally hoist myself up on the aft deck on my stomach and get my feet in the cockpit. I know I'm supposed to have one hand on the paddle and maintain constant pressure on it to maintain balance as I turn over. But something's wrong with the paddle set up and as I squirm around to find and fix it I go over the other side. When I come up, the paddle leash is wrapped around my leg and it takes 30-60 seconds to get free of it. I had a River Shorty on the PFD but it never occurred to me to use it. I thought briefly about making a second attempt but decided the overall strain was too much for me and headed for shore. Looking back on it, I figure I could have made another serious attempt, probably followed by at least one more half-ass attempt. Things being what the are, I don't like to put forth much more than 75% effort unless I have to so I passed. I guess I was in the water close to 20 minutes altogether. I waded to shore, stripped down, wrung everything out and got dressed again. I was pleased with the effect of wet Polartec stuff and didn't put the dry suit on until the wind started picking up. I gobbled up the granola bars and drank a half a bottle of water to give the old bod some fuel to work with. I was on shore for 30-45 minutes but never really did warm up until I started paddling again. I paddled a few miles, warmed up and felt ok until I hit some wind and adverse current while making a half mile crossing. Then my left shoulder started bothering me a little so I just took my time getting back. At the take out, I waded out and floated around with the gaskets covering skin rather than objects. I don't think I took on water but it was really too warm to tell. Seemed like it was almost body temperature in that little protected area. As I was taking out, a couple pulled up with 2 kayaks on the top of a SUV, one a kevlar Looksha IV the same color as mine. The woman and I started talking and she tells me where they're going and volunteers they don't roll and they're wearing wet suits with short sleeves and legs. When I ask if they've practiced assisted rescues she says no, she doesn't plan on going in the water. I related my little story but her S.O. made a couple of grunting noises and she took off. Observations: Check equipment (batteries) before leaving home. Secure equipment (thermometer). Drysuit usage: While there is a lot of information about care and feeding and benefits, I don't recall seeing anything about proper use of one, ie: Gaskets go next to the skin. Don't put them over booties, socks, watches, gloves, etc. Get wrinkles out. Zip the damn things up!!! Common sense? Maybe. I was well satisfied with the Polartec stuff. My feet were comfortable though soaking wet. My finger tips were cold but not unbearably so. I was comfortable in the wet top and bottom (55-60F?) until the wind picked up. Paddle float rescue: I dunno. I have a couple years of doing them in up to 3-5 foot surf zones. Do you forget that much over the winter? Lack of recent practice? Empty boat? Cold water, hypothermic? Weakened condition? Cold body? My original condition (I think ok to fair)? A combination of these things? Something else? I do know it was a miserable failure. While I probably could have succeeded during a second attempt, it probably would have meant failure (death?) in any kind of lumpy water unless I had a major surge of adrenaline Everything seemed so difficult. Paddle leash: I know there are strong feelings against these but I haven't made up my mind yet. I feel they provide a lot of advantages although I now think it's possible for one to kill me. Risk assessment? Previous discussions on safety suggest gear and skills may provide a false sense of security causing serious problems. This experience might be such an example. I let that woman walk away knowing she wasn't dressed properly, couldn't roll or perform assisted or self rescues. They were headed up a shallow, protected passage but I presume they were doing a circumnavigation and would be coming back an exposed coast and into an ebb tide. Conditions were mild, still…… I've posted this experience for two reasons: 1) for a little constructive group analysis and 2) for those who have just bought or are thinking about buying a dry suit. They're not necessarily a ticket to everlasting safety. Clyde Sisler http://csisler.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
After reading Clyde's thoughtful writeup, I think we should nominate him as the Equipment Check Guy on any trip. :-) On a more serious vein: > Observations: > > Check equipment (batteries) before leaving home. Yes, but we don't always do that. > > Secure equipment (thermometer). I never trust bungee deck cord for any thing more than what it is, i.e. a device meant to press down temporarily loose stuff and to keep stuff from slipping around. It cannot SECURE it, just hold down a bit. My paddle float and bilge pump are under deck bungee on my rear deck, _but_ I also strap 'em down. Most paddle floats have a webbing strap and I use it to connect to a D-ring and I run the strap also through the handle on the pump. > > Drysuit usage: While there is a lot of information about care and > feeding and benefits, I don't recall seeing anything about proper use of > one, ie: Gaskets go next to the skin. Don't put them over booties, socks, > watches, gloves, etc. Get wrinkles out. Zip the damn things up!!! Common > sense? Maybe. When I bought my dry suit 10 years ago, I never thought for a moment that its latex gaskets should be against anything but skin, painful and irritating as it might be at times. But no body mentioned that but I can certainly see why there might be confusion. Like the case of the fellow here in New Jersey a few years back who know enough to get a dry suit but not enough to know to have some kind of insulation layer underneath and that it would work better fully zipped up...he died when he fell in just a 100 feet or so from shore in fairly moderate conditions not the dead of winter. > Paddle leash: I know there are strong feelings against these but I > haven't made up my mind yet. I feel they provide a lot of advantages > although I now think it's possible for one to kill me. Risk assessment? I think that the pros of a paddle leash outweigh the cons. Your boat without your paddle is limited in usefulness but you could easily lose your paddle while stopping for a break in wind. If you capsize and know enough to hang on to your paddle you also have your boat if the leash tethers it to the boat. Entanglement is an issue. I am wondering if a coil type is better than a bungee one or a cord one. Regarding bungee, it can wrap around in a stretch position and hold tight but it may also be easy to loosen. The cord type would depend on the stiffness of the cord; parachute cord is too thin and likely to get as knotted up on you as thin shoelaces do. A coil probably would not wrap as tightly on you and most likely would be out of the way in its coiled position. BTW, the kill switch PFD attachment that jet-skiers use to cut their engines if they fall off, make an excellent paddle leash. I recommended that and other jet-ski stuff in a recent newsletter. It is cheap, has a wide opening snap hook, which jet skiers attach to a PFD strap but we can use to attach the leash to a deck D-ring; the loop on the other end of the leash which holds a key that cuts the engine, easily loops over your paddle shaft. > > Previous discussions on safety suggest gear and skills may provide a > false sense of security causing serious problems. This experience might be > such an example. > > I let that woman walk away knowing she wasn't dressed properly, couldn't > roll or perform assisted or self rescues. You know, it is something we are seeing around here at the start of good weather that is luring people out on what is still cold water. I have run across several individuals in sweatshirts and jeans going out when I water was about 48 or so. And I have heard from other experienced paddlers running into individuals making 3/4 mile crossing of the choppy Hudson in T-shirt and jeans, no sprayskirt, etc. It is so hard to control that urge to get out into this romantic exciting activity called sea kayaking. ralph enough of this. I am going paddling. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Ralph wrote: >I never trust bungee deck cord for any thing more than what it is, i.e. >a device meant to press down temporarily loose stuff and to keep stuff >from slipping around. Good point. I use those little carabineer they sell at most outdoors stores. You know the ones -- they are made to be used as "cool" keychains or something. I always use these to last my various toys to the deck lines. That way, if anything comes loose it isn't going to disappear. >When I bought my dry suit 10 years ago, I never thought for a moment >that its latex gaskets should be against anything but skin, painful and >irritating as it might be at times. Before I got booties, I used to put on those real think wicking socks under the ankle gaskets. They were think enough to not wick very much water in. Kokatat makes great suits, but they really should include some instructions for use. What is the easiest way to get the suit on (left arm first, then neck, then right arm), the proper way to put gaskets on (reaching down far and pulling the gasket open with the length of your finger, not the tips), and they should at least mention the effects of gaskets on leg hair! Clyde, get the booties. I get cold feet and hated all the stuff I'd have to force my feet into for a winter paddle. Now I just throw on some wool socks and put fleece botties on over those, and finally slip on a pair of neoprene x-large botties over the latex booties. We use the word "bootie" far too much on this list. -Patrick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> Drysuit usage: While there is a lot of information about care and >feeding and benefits, I don't recall seeing anything about proper use of >one, ie: Gaskets go next to the skin. Don't put them over booties, socks, >watches, gloves, etc. Get wrinkles out. Zip the damn things up!!! Common >sense? Maybe. You found out the hard way that the gaskets only work if they're on to skin, and actually for some little distance as well (i.e. no wrinkles). I hike my watch up high enough that I have to peel back the wrist gasket some distance to read it; haven't had water in through there yet. I tried taking the watch off and putting it back on over the gasket.. My drysuit has a fabric cover over the gaskets. Turned out to be inconvenient and got in the way now and then especially when putting on or taking off the drysuit. You always forget it's there until you've disrobed to some awkward position. WRT zipping up.. I know of two fatalities where someone didn't do that.... Nowadays there are very few drysuits with rear entry zippers and one of the fatalities involved such a suit. I've also run across one near miss (Hypothermia) because the paddler put nothing on under the drysuit. > I let that woman walk away knowing she wasn't dressed properly, couldn't >roll or perform assisted or self rescues. They were headed up a shallow, >protected passage but I presume they were doing a circumnavigation and would >be coming back an exposed coast and into an ebb tide. Conditions were mild, >still…… It's good to be concerned and I too will say something to paddlers who are clearly unprepared for what is in store. Nonetheless, all those waivers that we sign in various clubs all say the same thing: Only We are responsible for what We choose to do. Having said my piece in those circumstances I can do no more. It's their decision ultimately. In many instances, they were reasonable and saw what I was trying to get across. In one instance they started in anyway and took just a few seconds before they realized how unprepared they were and prudently quit. Otherwise, you just have to walk away from it.......... and hope for the best. > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>From Patrick <snip> >Kokatat makes great suits, but they really should include some instructions for use. What is the easiest way to get the suit on (left arm first, then neck, then right arm), the proper way to put gaskets on (reaching down far and pulling the gasket open with the length of your finger, not the tips), and they should at least mention the effects of gaskets on leg hair! What you're suggesting makes too much sense. i too wondered why a quality company like Kokatat sells a high dollar drysuit that arrives with no instructions for use. fortunately for Kokatat, most of our local club members support the prouduct... even though no instructions are provided. perhaps a thread of tips on how folks get into and out of their drysuits would be useful. i keep my head vertical while putting mine on... i am concerned about a neck injury at a remote location. powder all over my bald head, ears, and neck help it slip on easier. afterwards, i look like the Pillsbury doughboy. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 02-5-1999 3:55:27 PM EST, pmaun_at_bitstream.net writes: > We use the word "bootie" far too much on this list. Agreed. I propose less bootie and more booty. Kudos to Clyde for testing dry suit, paddle float, rescue systems. Great early-season drill. Suggestion to people who have practiced rolls in the pool in winter: In protected water, such as Clyde found, start your test with a test roll. Even if -- particularly if -- you aren't so confident in your roll. Just the attempt reinforces the learned reflex of "Capsize leads to roll attempt" which will hold you in good stead later. At worst, you come out and begin your drysuit test and re-entry practice. Yours for bootiness, Jim *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: Patrick Maun <pmaun_at_bitstream.net> To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Date: Sunday, May 02, 1999 4:53 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Dry Suit Field Test >Clyde, get the booties. I >get cold feet and hated all the stuff I'd have to force my feet into >for a winter paddle. Now I just throw on some wool socks and put >fleece botties on over those, and finally slip on a pair of neoprene >x-large botties over the latex booties. I'll second, third, and fourth this sentiment. My feet were never so warm and toasty before I changed to the latex boots. And yes, you do need to get larger neoprene overbooties to account for all that latex. Incidentally, my order of donning is legs first, then left arm, right arm, and finally neck. Seems to be less of a contortionist's trick for me that way. Just wait until the time when you accidentally get your leg through one of the arms by mistake......... JP *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
> What you're suggesting makes too much sense. i too wondered why a quality company like Kokatat sells a high dollar drysuit that arrives with no instructions for use. I presume there are many, like myself, who are not intimately involved with a paddling group or other experienced paddlers. This list is my 'group' and you <are invaluable>. I would guess a lot of dry suits are sold to people like me who have some vauge idea a dry suit might be a good thing in cold water/air and having bought one will be protected from all harm, forever and ever, amen. And if it happens to be a little warmer than expected, a little ventilation might be in order (reference the Lake Erie incident). So in addition to some general guidelines on proper use of a dry suit, a properly emphatic warning about its misuse should be included by the manufacturer. They put warning labels on everything else, don't they? > i keep my head vertical while putting mine on... i am concerned about a neck injury at a remote location. powder all over my bald head, ears, and neck help it slip on easier. afterwards, i look like the Pillsbury doughboy. Things I've learned so far: Neck gasket: I bought a large Kokatat Gortex dry suit that fit ok but the neck gasket would eventually have caused me to pass out. After a month of stretching it at home to its limit, I took it back and exchanged it for an extra large. Unfortunately, the neck gasket seemed just as tight and it didn't stretch either. Based on comments from the list, I cut a total of 3 rings from the neck and it now feels great. Haven't stuck my head under the water yet, but hopefully it's still watertight. Suit size: I tried the large suit on in the store, sat down, went through paddling and stretching motions (looking like an idiot) and decided it felt ok, not great, but ok. While I was trying to stretch the neck gasket, I started to doubt the fit and had no real hesitation in exchanging it for an extra large. The legs are 3 or 4 inches too long now but I didn't buy the suit for walking. I much prefer the roominess than the snugness, particularily since there is room for any kind of underclothes I choose to wear. Also the ole bod is free to expand a little in the future :-). Underclothes: As Ralph and others have pointed out, if you aren't wearing much underneath, you're probably going to have serious problems in cold water. My approach so far is to assume if I'm not going to be comfortable in clothes in 40F weather for an extended period of time, I'm not going to be able to handle 40F water either. And wicking is just as important in a dry suit as it is on the ski slopes (ouch, my aching shoulder). All Gaskets: Gaskets go over the skin. Socks, liners, booties, gloves, etc. go over top of the gaskets and the cuffs are then velcroed over top of them. Watches, braclets, short necklaces, etc. are probably not a good idea. Sharp corners may nick or puncture the gasket. Zipper: Make sure the zipper is pulled all the way closed. I have to eyeball it because it has felt closed when it wasn't. Suit care: Rinse with fresh water after use. If fresh water not available, rinse in salt water. Salt water contains only about 10%(?) salt whereas you're rinsing away a larger concentraions of salt. Gasket care: Use 303 lubricant(?) every month or so on gaskets to help prevent drying and cracking which will cause replacement. Most/many other lubricants(?) contain chemicals that may be harmful to latex. Zipper care: I think candle wax was a suggested lubricant for cold weather. I think bees wax was deemed too slippery which might make it to easy for it to open on its own(?). Getting into suit: I haven't put my foot through the arm yet but have managed to get it on backwards. It has been suggested that you use your entire finger length to stretch the ankle gasket while putting your feet through. I guess that makes sense because it would spread the pressure over a wider area and reduce the possibility of puncture. I guess you need to watch out for rings and fingernails. My dry suit zips from the right shoulder down to the left rib. I put my left arm in, followed by my right. I leave the neck until I'm ready to get in the kayak. Getting out of the suit: I found the key for me is to get out of both wrist gaskets first. Then I grab the left cuff with my right hand behind my back and work my left hand up the sleeve until I can work my shoulder out. The right arm comes right out then. If there's anything wrong or missing with the above, please respond as I plan to archive this. Gee, I can hardly wait for my next test. Maybe I won't die this time. Clyde Sisler http://csisler.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Sisler, Clyde wrote: > > > What you're suggesting makes too much sense. i too wondered why a quality > company like Kokatat sells a high dollar drysuit that arrives with no > instructions for use. A booklet would be useful, I agree. What is obvious to many may not be to some. > Suit care: > > Rinse with fresh water after use. If fresh water not available, rinse in > salt water. Salt water contains only about 10%(?) salt whereas you're > rinsing away a larger concentraions of salt. Sea water is only 3 per cent salt, but in use on non-rainy days, salt can build up on the arms, etc. Is your suit Goretex or not? Rinsing is critical to maintaining the Goretex' breathability and waterproofness. BTW, the DWR coating is the "weak spot" in Goretex garments, so laundering should be kept to a minimum. Replacing the DWR with an after-market product does not give full restoration, in my experience. Revivex is now endorsed by Gore as the product of choice for this. > Gasket care: > > Use 303 lubricant(?) every month or so on gaskets to help prevent drying and > cracking which will cause replacement. Most/many other lubricants(?) > contain chemicals that may be harmful to latex. 303 is good after every use, also. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR chemist *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 09:14 AM 5/3/99 -0400, Sisler, Clyde wrote: >Gee, I can hardly wait for my next test. Maybe I won't die this time. Gee, Clyde, maybe you could sell tickets to the event! Hank Hays *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
One thing that makes sense with dry suit usage is the "buddy system", something commonly done in scuba diving. Before heading out, have a buddy check your zippers and gaskets, then you check theirs. Sometimes it is just a bit too easy to forget one of those zippers. The ideal deal test would be to wade out up to your neck, but in 40 degree water that gets real unappealing real quick. -Patrick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Date sent: Mon, 3 May 1999 09:54:46 -0500 To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net From: Patrick Maun <pmaun_at_bitstream.net> Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Dry Suit Field Test > Sometimes it is just a bit too easy to forget one of those zippers. > The ideal deal test would be to wade out up to your neck, but in 40 > degree water that gets real unappealing real quick. It may be unappealing, Patrick, but it's the best way to check out a dry suit. From the beach, before you paddle. The best way, and also the best way to find out if your thermal protective layer underneath is going to work for the water condition. When I paddle solo in winter --- er, ahem, assuming I ever took such rash action --- I always swim the gear first to find any leaks or bad seals <before> I paddle --- and just for that reason. That said, your buddy system sounds like the best idea --- especially if you have a buddy to paddle with. Re the dry suit manual issue, I received detailed maintenance instructions with my GoreTex suit from Kokotat, which is about all I'd expect. I didn't get a manual with my VCP kayak, nor much safety instruction with my Lotus PFD --- except for the government- mandated stuff --- so I guess I don't understand the concern some have voiced about the lack of a manual with a drysuit. But the point is taken --- you need other networks, clubs, seminars, etc. to learn this stuff. I'm glad I had the Chesapeake Paddler Association (CPA), Cindy and Charlie Cole, Ron Casterline and other local individuals when I was starting up, and, if all you have is this network, as Clyde mentions --- don't forget the keys, Clyde ---, maybe this is as good as it gets. Having said that, the CPA had a cold water workshop a year ago January, and several relatively experienced kayakers found --- for the first time at the workshop, having been paddling in cold water for several years --- that what they'd been counting on just wasn't there. That includes improperly used gaskets --- socks under them! --- bad zippers, and insufficient insulation to handle a 20 minute swim. So there's never a better option than trying out stuff in reasonably controlled conditions as Clyde did in the start of this thread. Don't forget the keys, Clyde. Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Jack wrote: > >Re the dry suit manual issue, I received detailed maintenance >instructions with my GoreTex suit from Kokotat, which is about all >I'd expect. I didn't get a manual with my VCP kayak, nor much >safety instruction with my Lotus PFD --- except for the government- >mandated stuff --- so I guess I don't understand the concern some >have voiced about the lack of a manual with a drysuit. My main concern with the lack of a manual is that some this stuff really is a maintenance issue. Pulling the gaskets the wrong way is an easy way to shorten the life of them, not to mention pull a shoulder or break a neck. I'm not expecting a massive manual, after all, most of the people making the investment for a dry suit are experience kayakers. It would be nice if they outlined a few things for those without the benefit of a network of kayakers. Bouyancy issues, burping the suit, insulation layering etc. And by a manual I really mean just a list of things that could even be a simple as a photocopied sheet of paper. When I got my suit, it didn't even come with maintenance instructions. I didn't get those until I had the suit fitted with booties. Besides, I love reading all the crap that comes with gear. Makes me feel like I'm spending my money wisely, *and* I have those valuable papers I can file away in my little Gear Filing Cabinet! -Patrick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
That was a great report and its brought up a couple of questions that I would like to post to the group. > Water temperature: > Curiosity >I put my >hands in the water and started paddling myself around. That lasted 5-10 >seconds before the pain made me get my hands out of the water. How cold >does that make the water? Given what you say above, do you think numb hands and the tight cross deck bungie aft of the cockpit prevented you from slipping the paddle underneath for use as an outrigger? Do you think hard line, with sufficient room for the paddle, would work better? I agree with Ralph. If you can't trust bungie to hold your gear in place on your boat, why would you ever trust it to rescue yourself back into your boat. >I'm in a hurry now and haphazardly throw the paddle up on the aft deck >behind the cockpit coaming and try to hook my foot over the float. For some >reason the float is sinking and then I realize I haven't attempted to pull >myself up over the cockpit and my full weight is on it. I finally hoist >myself up on the aft deck on my stomach and get my feet in the cockpit. >I know I'm supposed to have one hand on the paddle and maintain constant >pressure on it to maintain balance as I turn over. But something's wrong >with the paddle set up and as I squirm around to find and fix it I go over >the other side. Were you rescuing yourself from the stern side of the paddle, or the cockpit side? The reason that I ask is that after checking out Matt's web site, I have found that using the paddle as an outrigger (secured to the boat), that rescuing from the cockpit side is much quicker. Tried it with some friends and found that I could be in the boat in an upright position in 5 secs. Never have to put your legs on the paddle. I have not tried this without securing the paddle to boat yet. Given that situation I still come up from behind the paddle and transfer leg and body weight across the paddle until I'm in the boat. Jeff Bingham/FLL *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Jeff Bingham wrote: > The reason that I ask is that after checking out Matt's web site, I have > found that using the paddle as an outrigger (secured to the boat)...... Is this a web site that shows self rescue techniques? If so, would you mind posting its URL? Thanks, John *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
John Waddington wrote: >Is this a web site that shows self rescue techniques? If so, would you >mind posting its URL? Sorry, here is the posting....http://www.marinerkayaks.com/ Jump into the section on manuals. Jeff Bingham/FLL *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>>Gee, I can hardly wait for my next test. Maybe I won't die this time. > >Gee, Clyde, maybe you could sell tickets to the event! > Before or during the event? Morbid person :-). *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>> Water temperature: >> Curiosity Private emails are leading me to believe the water was in the 30's. >>I put my >>hands in the water and started paddling myself around. That lasted 5-10 >>seconds before the pain made me get my hands out of the water. How cold >>does that make the water? > >Given what you say above, do you think numb hands and the tight cross deck >bungie aft of the cockpit prevented you from slipping the paddle underneath >for use as an outrigger? >Do you think hard line, with sufficient room for the paddle, would work >better? I don't think numb fingers played a part in this fiasco. They were in the water briefly and I had wrung the fleece gloves out and put them back on. I don't recall a sense of coldness (because they were already numb? :-)). I was taught to simply place the paddle in the small groove behind the coaming so I don't use the bungies at all during the rescue. That is where I store the pump and paddle float and don't recall any tightness in the bungies when I removed them. Remember I was working with a dry boat that had not capsized so the aft deck and bungies were comparatively dry. Not having thought about a hard line before, I think I'd alway prefer a bungie, unless there was some concern about the elasticity(?) of the bungies during the rescue. Two days later I would have to say my main problem was not having even thought of self rescue mechanics since last season so when I actually tried to perform one in an adverse situation, it was more or less by trial and error, trying to recall what it was I was supposed to be doing. I don't think the cold affected my mind (nothing much does anymore) but I'm sure it had some impact on my motor functions. >I agree with Ralph. If you can't trust bungie to hold your gear in place on >your boat, why would you ever trust it to rescue yourself back into your boat. I don't understand the concern. The outer part of my bungies are starting to wear but I have as much faith (naively?) in them as I would with any other securing mechanism. >Were you rescuing yourself from the stern side of the paddle, or the cockpit side? Cockpit side. I'm trying to recall the reason but am drawing a blank. I prefer mounting from the port side but generally recall using my left leg which would put me on the stern side. This time however, I used my right leg which puts me on the cockpit side. >The reason that I ask is that after checking out Matt's web site, I have >found that using the paddle as an outrigger (secured to the boat), that >rescuing from the cockpit side is much quicker. Tried it with some friends >and found that I could be in the boat in an upright position in 5 secs. >Never have to put your legs on the paddle. I'm aware he's got some good stuff out there, just haven't had the time to look things over. I hope people keep mentioning it so it doesn't slip into the background again. Jack Martin: To the arguement that kayaks and PFDs don't come with instructions, I would answer, maybe they should. I know I would have benefitted from some kayak care and feeding tips. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Clyde: All good points, and well taken. A couple of embellishments: -----Original Message----- From: Sisler, Clyde <Clyde.Sisler_at_wang.com> To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Date: Monday, May 03, 1999 10:03 AM Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Dry Suit Field Test >Zipper: > >Make sure the zipper is pulled all the way closed. I have to eyeball it >because it has felt closed when it wasn't. I made a bad mistake on my Kokatat suit ( an older model). There was a strip of nylon tape near the bottom of the zipper and I found it difficult to thread the zipper pull and its pullcord through it. One day I just cut it off. DON't DO THIS! That little strip of cloth keeps the bottom of the zipper from tearing apart as you enter or leave the suit. At that time there is a considerable pulling of cloth at that point. It ultimately caused the zipper to split there. Such a small tear, so much water....... > >Zipper care: > >I think candle wax was a suggested lubricant for cold weather. I think bees >wax was deemed too slippery which might make it to easy for it to open on >its own(?). I used Chapstick. Worked fine. > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Clyde writes: << if I'm not going to be comfortable in clothes in 40F weather for an extended period of time, I'm not going to be able to handle 40F water either. >> Right - but as others have often written, the problem comes when the air temperature is above 65 or so, and the water temp is 40 or so. On those days, even with a Goretex drysuit, I get uncomfortably hot. After a couple of hours (or less), my polys are almost as wet as if I'd been in the water. So - when the air is hot and the water is cold, I limit my time on the water, and try to paddle "gently". If both air and water temps are 40, I can dress for that, always assuming that I'm not going to spend much time at all in the water. On those days, I don't make long crossings alone, and if I practice rolls etc I do that very near to shore. Drysuit zipper lube - A candle, rubbed *vigorously* along the zipper tines is the bast thing I've used. Getting in and out of the suit - I think each person works out his/her own salvation here. The only thing which hangs me up is getting the anke gaskets off. I've worked out a several-step way of doing this which works well - but I've noticed that some others just yank 'em off, and apparently that works for them. It wouldn't work well for me. Bill Hansen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Clyde, our official test pilot, wrote: > i keep my head vertical while putting mine on... i am concerned about a >neck injury at a remote location. powder all over my bald head, ears, and >neck help it slip on easier. afterwards, i look like the Pillsbury doughboy. We stretch our neck gaskets (when we remember to do so at all) for a day or two before paddling. I've found that the 1 gallon plastic bottles that antifreeze comes in are the ideal instruments for this. With their tapered tops and handles, it's easy to pull them though the neck gasket and position them so that the wide, cylindrical part of the bottle is inside the gasket. We've also found that the gaskets go on our wrists and heads (two and one each, respectively) much easier after frequent use of 303. Just a very little bit on the gaskets as I get ready to stretch the necks does the trick. As for our legs, well, we got the, er, how shall I say this without overusing the 'b' word?...rubber footcoverings. I don't remember who advised us to get them but thanks for the advice! On a different, but related subject: We were out for a morning paddle on the Hudson, out of Yonkers, two or three weekends ago. We were four paddlers, all mildly north of the average age of the "Who we are" respondents, all in dry suits. As we reached a small beach on the Palisades side of the Hudson, we saw a lone paddler in a small single kayak reach the beach just before us. He turned out to be a very nice young fellow (early to mid 20s, I'd guess), who had been paddling for just one month. Cotton t-shirt, denim shorts, sneakers, no PFD, no spray skirt, water about 50 degrees F., and -- of course -- paddling solo. If you knew me, it'd come as no surprise that I found an opportunity to approach him in a modestly avuncular way, to tell him how dangerously he was living. We talked for awhile about the things he would need and about his need to connect with people who could teach him safety and skills, people he would enjoy. He seemed very receptive, even grateful. Probably humoring me. I found out later that at least two of my three companions had done something of the same. He'd been looking for some peace and quiet on the other side of the river, poor guy. Hope he listened. Guess he made it back that day (we haven't read about him). bye Bob Volin bobvolin_at_bestweb.net ;-> There cannot be a crisis this week; my schedule is already full. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Bob Volin wrote: > We've also found that the gaskets go on our wrists and heads (two and one > each, respectively) much easier after frequent use of 303. Just a very > little bit on the gaskets as I get ready to stretch the necks does the > trick. I seem to recall that 303 was only supposed to be used infrequently (a couple of times a season) and not each time you use the suit. Or was that with straight silicon sprays that we all used earlier? I hope someone can comment more intelligently on this than my feeble input/inquiry here. :-) Regarding the neck gasket I think people tend to leave them too tight unnecessarily, especially paddlers who are not inclined to play at rolling. Other than at the time of immersion, your head and neck would be largely above water. I don't mean to suggest to leave a gap but as long as the neck gasket is stretching on your neck some rather than choking, it should work just fine. Also the less overly stretched it is, the more likely it is to last. > On a different, but related subject: We were out for a morning paddle on > the Hudson, out of Yonkers, two or three weekends ago. We were four > paddlers, all mildly north of the average age of the "Who we are" > respondents, all in dry suits. As we reached a small beach on the Palisades > side of the Hudson, we saw a lone paddler in a small single kayak reach the > beach just before us. He turned out to be a very nice young fellow (early > to mid 20s, I'd guess), who had been paddling for just one month. Cotton > t-shirt, denim shorts, sneakers, no PFD, no spray skirt, water about 50 > degrees F., and -- of course -- paddling solo. If you knew me, it'd come as > no surprise that I found an opportunity to approach him in a modestly > avuncular way, to tell him how dangerously he was living. We talked for > awhile about the things he would need and about his need to connect with > people who could teach him safety and skills, people he would enjoy. He > seemed very receptive, even grateful. Probably humoring me. I found out > later that at least two of my three companions had done something of the > same. He'd been looking for some peace and quiet on the other side of the > river, poor guy. Hope he listened. Guess he made it back that day (we > haven't read about him). I admire Bob's patient approach. But people seem to hear such advice or read it and somehow don't connect it with them. It doesn't apply to them. I have seen this with safety advice I give in my newsletter and book about extra flotation including a foto of a double Klepper that is half submerged because of lack of airbags. People read the text, see the foto and just look past both and don't use the extra flotation until they are unpleasantly surprised. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: > > Bob Volin wrote: > > > We've also found that the gaskets go on our wrists and heads (two and one > > each, respectively) much easier after frequent use of 303. > > I seem to recall that 303 was only supposed to be used infrequently (a > couple of times a season) and not each time you use the suit. Or was > that with straight silicon[e] sprays that we all used earlier? I hope > someone can comment more intelligently on this than my feeble > input/inquiry here. :-) 303 every time is OK. Keeps the latex supple and protects it from oxidation -- especially important if you live in a smog-infested place. Thus recommendeth Kokatat and the people I bought my paddling jacket from. Silicone can ruin latex; ditto Armorall and similar. (Silicon is the stuff in transistors and integrated circuits -- hard, brittle, grey, shiny.) -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR crazy? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Dave Kruger wrote: >Silicone can ruin latex; ditto Armorall and similar. (Silicon is the stuff >in transistors and integrated circuits -- hard, brittle, grey, shiny.) Gee, Dave, if I remember my chemistry right, silicon is a major component in beach sand and in dirt. Will those hurt my drysuit gaskets? Do I need to take a chair along on trips (or another such protective "filtering device") so I don't sit directly in the sand? <grin> Thanks, Hank Hays Paddlemaker, not chemist *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
>We stretch our neck gaskets (when we remember to do so at all) for a day or two before paddling. I've found that the 1 gallon plastic bottles that antifreeze comes in are the ideal instruments for this. With their tapered tops and handles, it's easy to pull them though the neck gasket and position them so that the wide, cylindrical part of the bottle is inside the gasket. What brand of dry suit? I couldn't stretch my Kokatat at all. I had a large that I exchanged for an extra large and they both seemed to have the same neck gasket. I had a gallon paint can with the Sunday paper and paper back novels wrapped around it. Left it on for several days and I could tell no difference. I was still close to suffocation. Cutting off 3 rings was the only way I could get relief. Now it slips over my head comfortably (hopefully not too comfortably) and it is no longer an instrument of torture. Hopefully I've solved my other drysuit problems and can test the neck gasket this weekend. >We've also found that the gaskets go on our wrists and heads (two and one each, respectively) much easier after frequent use of 303. Just a very little bit on the gaskets as I get ready to stretch the necks does the trick. Maybe that's what was missing when stretching the neck gasket. While originally trying to stretch the it there had only been one application of 303. The crazy chemist recommends 303 after each use too. >As for our legs, well, we got the, er, how shall I say this without overusing the 'b' word?...rubber footcoverings. I don't remember who advised us to get them but thanks for the advice! I don't have them. I've been using Fleece socks for a couple of years for winter hiking/snowshoeing, and for early season paddling. I have thin blood and still haven't had any (much) problems with keeping my feet warm once they're out of the water. This is the first year (since the old ww days) I've had neoprene footwear. It was just stinky old sneakers before. If/when I have to replace the gaskets I may or may not get the relief zipper but will probably still skip the b' things. I haven't had the problems others seem to have getting the suit on and off. I must be more patient or have a higher tolerance to pain than some :-). Of course you can't be nonchalant without that zipper. There's not much doubt when you've peeled down and then stare off into space. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Ralph Diaz wrote: > snip > > Regarding the neck gasket I think people tend to leave them too tight > unnecessarily, especially paddlers who are not inclined to play at > rolling. Other than at the time of immersion, your head and neck would > be largely above water. I don't mean to suggest to leave a gap but as > long as the neck gasket is stretching on your neck some rather than > choking, it should work just fine. Also the less overly > stretched it is, > the more likely it is to last. A valid point, but I just want to point out that if one is going to choose to err on the issue of gasket fit that the prudent course might be to err on the side of being too tight rather than too loose. I don't ever recall hearing of anyone being strangled to death by their drysuit (although mine does attempt to do so occasionally, a little Zen paddling soon loosens its stranglehold). The problem that I've always had with trimming gasket rings is that it's a one way street - you can't fix a botched job without replacing the gasket entirely. BTW - to any that I offended with my comment a couple weeks ago about paddling without a spare - paint me guilty also. No mishap occurred, but as I finished my evening paddle last night on a local lake (the ice just broke up a couple days ago) I noticed that the spare paddle wasn't on the rear deck where it belonged, but rather sitting in the truck. Something about glass houses and stones....<g> Dave Seng Juneau, Alaska *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On May 6, 10:56, Hank Hays wrote: } Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Dry Suit Field Test > Dave Kruger wrote: > >Silicone can ruin latex; ditto Armorall and similar. (Silicon is the stuff > >in transistors and integrated circuits -- hard, brittle, grey, shiny.) > > Gee, Dave, if I remember my chemistry right, silicon is a major component > in beach sand and in dirt. Will those hurt my drysuit gaskets? Do I need > to take a chair along on trips (or another such protective "filtering > device") so I don't sit directly in the sand? Silicon is not the same thing as silicone. And in any case elements like silicon are chemically much different from compounds like silicone. Oxygen is a major component of water. Doesn't mean you can breathe water. There's a lot of chlorine (in the form of chloride ions) in salt water like seawater. But seawater doesn't kill almost everything living like chlorine bleach does. -- Bob Myers InteleNet Communications, Inc. Email: bob_at_InteleNet.net 18101 Von Karman Avenue, Suite 550 Phone: 949-851-8250 x227 Irvine, CA 92612 Fax: 949-851-1088 http://www.intelenet.net/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
Clyde S. responded: >What brand of dry suit? I couldn't stretch my Kokatat at all. I had a >large that I exchanged for an extra large and they both seemed to have the >same neck gasket. I had a gallon paint can with the Sunday paper and paper >back novels wrapped around it. Left it on for several days and I could tell >no difference. I was still close to suffocation. Cutting off 3 rings was >the only way I could get relief. Now it slips over my head comfortably >(hopefully not too comfortably) and it is no longer an instrument of >torture. Hopefully I've solved my other drysuit problems and can test the >neck gasket this weekend. > Ours are Kokotat suits as well. I won't speak for Joan, but since the stretching works for me, I'd guess that my neck is thinner than yours, Clyde (last time I paid attention, the neck size was 15.5 or 16). >>We've also found that the gaskets go on our wrists and heads (two and one >each, respectively) much easier after frequent use of 303. Just a very >little bit on the gaskets as I get ready to stretch the necks does the >trick. > >Maybe that's what was missing when stretching the neck gasket. While >originally trying to stretch the it there had only been one application of >303. The crazy chemist recommends 303 after each use too. > >If/when I have to replace the gaskets I may or may not get the relief zipper ...I emphatically recommend the relief zipper. Joan's got the Dr. Denton variety on her suit. I know she's pleased with it, but it's best to ask her for details (provided she's willing to share). I can say this much on that subject: She was concerned when ordering the rear-facing relief zipper that it would make for an uncomfortable seat in the kayak -- that she might end up sitting on the zipper. That doesn't happen. Happy testing, Clyde. Bob V *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, 6 May 1999 08:20:30 -0800 David Seng <David_at_wainet.com> writes: . I don't ever >recall >hearing of anyone being strangled to death by their drysuit Of course not - they don't live to tell the tale. But maybe some of those deaths from hypothermia were really deaths by strangulation. (Excuse me, I have to go stretch the neck of my drysuit some more...) Joan ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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