Oh, this is fun. I just love our rolling discussions. John made a comment in his last post I just have to respond to... Why do you learn to roll? Because you will be able to get right side up after a capsize. Why do you capsize? Because you might get caught in conditions you can't handle. Why did you get caught in conditions you can't handle? Duhhhhhhhh I learn to roll because its fun. I would still roll even if all I paddled in was perfectly flat, calm water. I dispute your claim that the roll is needed because you find yourself in conditions you can't handle. A capsize doesn't mean the general conditions are beyond your ability to control the boat. If this is what you belive, John, then you are seriously mistaken about the role of rolling. The roll lets me play with conditions that I would otherwise have to paddle in survival mode. A capsize doesn't always mean you can't handle the conditions . It means an isolated event caught you off gaurd. It means you tried to put the kayak into a weird position that didn't quite work (eg. an ender or a flat spin). As long as the conditions don't prevent you from rolling and you're in control, you can handle the conditions --- even if they regularly cause you to capsize. The best example of this is the surf zone. If I didn't have the roll, the surf zone would be a place to avoid. If I had to spend time in the surf, it would be to launch and land as quickly as possible. But because of the roll, I can go out and play in the surf. Sure it flips me quite a bit (I never said I was any good at surfing), but I just pop back up and go out for more. Just because I flip when I surf doesn't mean I can't handle the surf conditions. By having a roll, I lean that much harder when I carve turns. I can head into a tide rip and play 'cause I know if I make a mistake and flip, I can pop right back up. I can aggressively use sculling and draw strokes and not worry about the consequences of a mistake. Rolling lets me more fully experience paddling. Its a liberating skill that opens up huge opportunities for more fulfilling paddling. --Tim > -----Original Message----- > From: John Winters [SMTP:735769_at_ican.net] > Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 1999 8:42 AM > To: PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Paddle floats > > Dave wrote; > > > > (SNIP) > > > >I agree, in rough conditions, the paddle float is questionable. The > >reality is that only a small percentage of the paddlers I see on the > water > >engage the sea in conditions where a paddle float will not work. The > float > >is a good choice for them. It does not "... entice them into conditions > >where it won't work," (paraphrasing) because most of them are > **terrified** > >of rough water and won't paddle in it. They stay on the beach, or get > the > >hell off the water when it gets rough. > > I have a bit of trouble with this. How can a safety device that purports > to make paddling safer not entice people to take additional risks? In my > survey of paddlers many said that the presence of a safety device would > not > entice them to increase their risk but then only a couple of questions > later would tell how they would never take a particular risk without a > particular safety device. Sounds a bit contradictory to me. > > The purveyors of most safety equipment advertise how much safer using > their > wares will make us. If they don't make us safer, why do people insist on > using them in conditions where they would not paddle without them? > > Why do you learn to roll? Because you will be able to get right side up > after a capsize. Why do you capsize? Because you might get caught in > conditions you can't handle. Why did you get caught in conditions you > can't > handle? Duhhhhhhhh > > Sounds like a circular and illogical argument to me. > > "I use all this gear and learn all these skills so I can paddle in > conditions where I might have to use them but no, I would never take any > additional risks just because I had a piece of gear or a skill." > > Meanwhile back at the beach the wimps won't go out because they fear the > rough water which explains why they have their paddle floats because you > never can tell when you will trip over a bottle of Montepulciano Abruzzo > and need to claw your way back to the surface. ;-) > > Cheers, > John Winters > Redwing Designs > Specialists in Human Powered Watercraft > http://home.ican.net/~735769/ > > > > > > ************************************************************************** > * > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > ************************************************************************** > * *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
At 03:06 PM 5/12/99 -0700, Mattson, Timothy G wrote: >Oh, this is fun. I just love our rolling discussions. > >John made a comment in his last post I just have to respond to... > > Why do you learn to roll? Because you will be able to get right side up > after a capsize. Why do you capsize? Because you might get caught in > conditions you can't handle. Why did you get caught in conditions you >can't > handle? Duhhhhhhhh > >I learn to roll because its fun. I would still roll even if all I paddled >in was perfectly flat, calm water. > >I dispute your claim that the roll is needed because you find yourself in >conditions you can't handle. A capsize doesn't mean the general conditions >are beyond your ability to control the boat. If this is what you belive, >John, then you are seriously mistaken about the role of rolling. >opportunities for more fulfilling paddling. > >--Tim The skill of rolling is a survival skill, if you do it for other reasons good for you but its bases and history is still survival Dana *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
I have enjoyed reading the posts for the past month -mostly as a lurker- they have been very helpful to a new sea kayaker. I am 52 and have been canoeing most of my life and WW kayaking for about 3 years. I was pleasantly surprised at how easy it is to roll my nearly 18' FG SK. It is no harder than my 10' WW Piroutte. I would encourage everyone to learn this skill. My daughter in law learned in 5 minutes and can hand roll beautifully. I am fairly conservative with regard to risk- I have limited myself to Class III+ WW rapids- and have followed the Paddlefloat/foot pump/ roll thread with interest. I was able to successfully roll my CD Caribou the first time with my Greenland style paddle (Superior brand). With the extended position it is far easier than even a WW roll in a pool. I also did an outrigger self rescue with the wood paddle with NO float. Despite this initial success, I ordered a paddle float as a back-up/back-up. Having failed at combat rolls on the river, I recognize the wisdom of having backups in place. The big difference is in WW you never re-enter in the water. I am looking forward to practicing in more difficult conditions now. I agree with the post about learning to roll so you can push the envelope with regard to technique. I fully expect to flip as I test the limits of tilting and leaning my new boat while turning, eddying out, etc. It's probably as much of a real hassle having to re-enter and pump as it is to swim to shore, dump your boat and get in again on the river. Without a roll I think most people will probably limit their experimentation and learning by staying in a real safe mode most of the time. Rolling is also a great way to avoid overheating while paddling on hot days. 100 degree air 40 degree Idaho river water- no problem- roll and cool off every five minutes. This would probably work for Clyde on his coastal exploits. Wish I had the time for that type of trip. Keep those posts coming! Walt *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.gasp-seakayak.net/paddlewise/ ***************************************************************************
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