Im trying to deconstruct my stroke. I have finally found a really comfortable stroke that I can seemingly use all day long. Just curious about how you all do it. let's assume that when the left blade enters the water, its point A when the left blade leaves the water, point B right blade enters the water, its point C when the right blade leaves the water, point D 1) when you paddle, do you "pedal" your boat; that is to say do you exert pressure on one foot then the other, depending on where you are in your stroke? 2) If you do, when do you push with your right leg (A->B,B->C,C->D, B->A etc) 3) When you push with your right leg, are you also pushing your knee upwards, or does your opposite knee pull up? 4) when your left paddle is in the water between A and B which way does your boat lean left or right? 5) when you paddle does the stern of your boat zig zag? Maybe you can answer these, try not to think about it too hard, you know, try for "muscle memory" answers. thanks alot jim *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hello Paddle Wisers, This is a response to the thread on paddling technique. When I teach students in Minneapolis/St. Paul I use an acronym to teach proper paddling technique. The acronym is PROBE and here is a breakdown of it. P Posture; sit upright in the kayak or lean slightly forward. P Pull and Push; use your arms and paddle to create a fulcrum effect when paddling. As you pull one blade through the water alongside your boat you should push the paddle shaft away from you with the other hand. Some instructors recommend a 65 to 35 ratio of pulling to pushing force. I personnaly even the force so I am pulling with the force that I am pushing with. R Rotation of the Torso; As you paddle you should rotate your torso to take advantage of the torso muscles. If you rotate correctly you will feel it in your abdomen. Some paddlers only rotate their shoulders and deny themselves the use of the lower abdominal muscles. O Open Your Hand; to reduce the possibility of getting tendonitis in your wrist you should open your hand when pushing the paddle shaft away from you. This opening of the hand can range from making the OK sign when pushing to letting the paddle shaft lie on the base of your thumb as you push the shaft away with a totally open hand. B Paddlers Box; The shape that exists between our hands and shoulder will resemble a box shape as we paddle and rotate our shoulders. E Elbow; when the neck of the paddle is even with your hip you will want to vertically raise the blade out of the water and you should lift your elbow up with it. This can reduce the possibility of getting tendonitis in your elbow. By lifting your elbow you will feel your armpit open up and you will use your arm muscles more efficiently when paddling. I have my elbow just under shoulder level and my hand is just over shoulder level as I push the paddle away from me. E Extension; you should never fully extend your arm when paddling for you can hurt your shoulder joint. Just like bicyclists who always have a bend in their leg as they pedal we need to have a slight bend in our arms when we paddle. It is important that you fit your kayak by having good contact between your kayak and your thighs and to use your feet to push the foot braces while paddling also. -- Don Dimond Owner of Superior Visions Sea Kayaking School Board Member of Twin Cities Sea Kayaking Association > PaddleWise Wednesday, June 23 1999 Volume 01 : Number 580 > > > > Re: [Paddlewise] stroke poll...aw, c'mon > Re: [Paddlewise] stroke poll...aw, c'mon > Re: [Paddlewise] stroke poll...aw, c'mon > [Paddlewise] securing gear in kayak && bulkheads? > [Paddlewise] Offside roll: how useful? > Re: [Paddlewise] stroke poll...aw, c'mon > RE: [Paddlewise] New Yak Board Owner > Re: [Paddlewise] securing gear in kayak && bulkheads? > Re: [Paddlewise] Offside roll: how useful? > [Paddlewise] Night Vision > Re: [Paddlewise] Offside roll: how useful? > [Paddlewise] Posted images of the forward stroke. > Re: [Paddlewise] Offside roll: how useful? > Re: [Paddlewise] Offside roll: how useful? > Re: [Paddlewise] Offside roll: how useful? > [Paddlewise] Great White Shark > RE: [Paddlewise] Offside roll: how useful? > [Paddlewise] Paddle around San Jose? > Re: [Paddlewise] Great White Shark > Re: [Paddlewise] Great White Shark > Re: [Paddlewise] Offside roll: how useful? > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 12:14:07 -0400 > From: John Waddington <waddinj_at_recorder.ca> > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] stroke poll...aw, c'mon > > Jim Champoux wrote: > > So, why no takers on my stroke poll? I received two responses to my stroke > > question > > Due to a shoulder injury several years ago, my stroke is somewhat messed > up. For a few years I paddled sort of one-armed, then for several years > was not able to paddle at all. I have only been paddling again for > about a year and am working hard to overcome some really ugly habits > formed when my shoulder didn't work very well. I too was hoping that > Jim would get some answers and was looking forward to how others do it. > Stoke that is. I mean stoke with their paddle (when they're paddling > their kayaks!). > > John > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 10:20:01 -0600 > From: Steve Jernigan <jernigan_at_chester.uccs.edu> > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] stroke poll...aw, c'mon > > At 09:06 AM 6/23/99 -0400, Jim Champoux wrote: > >So in the two years that I have been with you all, I have endured endless > >conversations about various esoterica...paper or plastic, roll or fries > >etc. and loved every minute of it. > > > >So, why no takers on my stroke poll? I received two responses to my stroke > >question, and one of them was from someone named "toki" who offered to > >*sell* me the answers for $10.00 (canadian of course). > > > >email me privately if your afraid of being publicly exposed as having a > >"wrong" stroke....all I want to do is compare myself against some known > >paddle techniques. > > > >c'mon > > > >...please? > > Well, since you asked so nicely . . . > On flatwater: If I am in a hurry, or beating against a significant > headwind, I will switch sides on a 2-3 or 3-4 pattern using a short quick > forward stroke with no correction and as much power at the "catch" as I can > wind into it. I use either a Zaveral carbon (light) or a Bending Branches > wood (pretty light, more blade) bent paddle. If merely loafing along, > fishing, or traveling with a current, I use either a J or C stroke, or > sometimes just the front 1/2 of the C, on whichever side lets any existing > breeze do most of the correction for me. If I'm dragging a lure, I prefer > to paddle on the same side as my fishin' pole, as then I can watch the tip > and regulate my speed for best lure action. Sometimes I will spin the boat > around and paddle backwards for a change of pace, using a reverse J, which > for some strange reason works really well for me. > On faster moving water, where there are strainers, rocks, undercut banks, > etc. to avoid, I pretty much do whatever seems prudent at the time to stay > out of trouble. I use a straight paddle, and try to set things up so as to > avoid having to switch sides at an inopportune time. I generally prefer a > back ferry over a front ferry, and usually get better results from a > cross-bow duffek as opposed to the on-side version. An exception is when > pulling out of an eddy into a real brisk current, where the offside duffek > might trap my paddle with embarrassing (to say the least) consequences. > I paddle a wenonah solo boat with absolutely no rocker, and I'm sure that > this affects my preferences. I keep my butt firmly planted in the tractor > seat, and brace my knees against foam pads glued just below the gunwales. I > have tried bicycle style toe clips on the footbrace, but can't really say > how much they help. Kneeling doesn't seem to help much, as there is nothing > to rest my fanny against. > I paddled a WW 'yak once many many summers ago, but chiefly remember being > concerned with keeping the closed side down, and not fouling my shorts at > the time ;-) > Not really what you asked for, but hope it'll stimulate some more > discussion at least. > ByeBye! S. > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 12:42:23 -0400 > From: "Richard Culpeper" <culpeper_at_geocities.com> > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] stroke poll...aw, c'mon > > Hi Jim: > > 1) Yes, some folks do paddle with their legs, the purpose being to use the > large leg and thorax muscles rather than wee little arm muscles. > > For this type of stroke (often called the high stroke), break you stroke > into setup, catch, pull, and recovery. During the pull, try to keep your > arms fairly straight so that force transmits through the bones rather than > working the muscles (obviously a huge exaggeration, so don't take it > literally). Rather than hauling back with your arms, propel the boat by > rotating your body. Key to rotating your body is to drive with the leg on > the side on which you are stroking. When you straighten your leg, one of > the cheeks of your butt slides back, and this rotates your body. > > Recover (take the paddle out of the water) as the paddle approaches your > hips. (Obviously you'll bend one of your arms at this point). If the pull > went well, this will leave you all wound up, wanting to unwind by taking a > stroke on the other side. Instead of thinking stroke, stroke, stroke, > think unwind, unwind, unwind. Sortta like scything wheat. > > A lot of folks don't like this type of stroke. It takes a lot of energy, > so it is good for short quick jaunts, but requires conditioning to be used > for extended periods. Most boats are not set up with footboards that you > can drive aggressively against. Many boats are outfitted for bracing and > rolling so they do not let you slide about on your seat. To best see it, > check out folks in Olympic sprint racing kayaks. > > (You also mentioned movement of the boat -- try to keep the boat moving as > smoothly as possible -- no turning, no rotating, no bobbing.) > > 2) Is this dull to write about? Yup. And that's coming from a fellow who > had a prior life as a technical writer. More seriously, the forward stroke > (particularly the high stroke) is best taught one on one. The information > I just gave you is an extreme over-simplification. Describing the > technique thoroughly would take a huge amount of time. This effort has to > be weighed against what it would take to simply go out with an instructor > and take some lessons. For example, I'll be introducing the high forward > stroke to some beginners tonight. I'd be willing to bet that they get a > lot more out of our time on the water than anyone would from reading this > post. Some topics are best discussed in text (e.g. "esoterica involved in > cross linked polymeric chains"), but others, such as introducing new > paddlers to the high forward stroke, are best handled on the water in > person. Lots more feedback and less room for misunderstanding or > development of bad habits that way. Perhaps the best way for you to learn > more about the high forward stroke would be to ask the folks on Paddlewise > if they can refer you to instructors in your area. > > No one is trying to give you the short shift. You have some great > questions which deserve solid answers, but we just can't give you the > answers that you deserve over the net anywhere near as well as we could in > person. > > Cheers, > Richard Culpeper > www.geocities.com/~culpeper > > - ---------- > > From: Jim Champoux <jim_at_sigall.com> > > To: Paddle~Wise <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> > > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] stroke poll...aw, c'mon > > Date: Wednesday, June 23, 1999 11:11 AM > > > > Barbara Kossey Wrote: > > > > >I think the reason few answered is that is so damn tedious to write > about a > > >paddle stroke. It's technical writing. Videos are better. > > >Barbara > > > > > > > > > > > Barbara, > > With all the respect due you, are you serious? Tedious?...*Tedious*? This > > list eats breathes and sleeps tedious, its what we live for. Seriously, I > > have never, ever, ever heard anyone make a distinction that writing about > a > > paddle stroke is "technical writing" or "tedious" I mean, how basic to > > paddling is your stroke...surely a good stroke brings you more comfort > and > > joy than knowing the esoterica involved in cross linked polymeric chains > > or...well, you know what I mean. > > As far as relieving you all from the tediousness of technical writing, I > > had posed my poll as a series of questions which can be answered pretty > > much with one word sentences, repeated below > > > > Let me repeat, I am not interested in "exposing" anyone or embarrasing > > anyone, or even making anyone think about their stroke. I am just a > newbie > > paddler who is curious about how other people who enjoy and take comfort > in > > their paddle stroke do it. I have found out that using my legs really > does > > help my paddling and I have found out that depending on which leg I > "push" > > changes the direction of the stern of my boat. I am trying to reconcile > > comfort with efficiency. Maybe someone out there has done the same. > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________________ > > >Im trying to deconstruct my stroke. I have finally found a really > > >comfortable stroke that I can seemingly use all day long. Just curious > > >about how you all do it. > > > > > >let's assume that when the left blade enters the water, its point A > > >when the left blade leaves the water, point B > > >right blade enters the water, its point C > > >when the right blade leaves the water, point D > > > > > > > > >1) when you paddle, do you "pedal" your boat; that is to say do you > exert > > >pressure on one foot then the other, depending on where you are in your > > >stroke? > > > > > >2) If you do, when do you push with your right leg (A->B,B->C,C->D, B->A > > etc) > > > > > >3) When you push with your right leg, are you also pushing your knee > > >upwards, or does your opposite knee pull up? > > > > > >4) when your left paddle is in the water between A and B which way does > > >your boat lean left or right? > > > > > >5) when you paddle does the stern of your boat zig zag? > > > > > > > > >Maybe you can answer these, try not to think about it too hard, you > know, > > >try for "muscle memory" answers. > > > > > >thanks alot > > >jim > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *************************************************************************** > > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > > > *************************************************************************** > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 12:58:46 EDT > From: Firelight_at_aol.com > Subject: [Paddlewise] securing gear in kayak && bulkheads? > > You do not need bulkheads in your boat if you are doing only lakes, flatwater > rivers, etc. However I do strongly suggest flotation bags so that you can > easily rid yourself of any extra water if you dump. In addition I use > floation bags that allow you to put cargo in them. Also I have a dry bag > secured to the back deck of my boat with all me emergency gear in it. > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 13:13:28 EST5EDT > From: "Karl Coplan" <kcoplan_at_Genesis.law.pace.edu> > Subject: [Paddlewise] Offside roll: how useful? > > I got inspired by Shawn's reports of his rolling successes (at least > I think it was Shawn; if not, apologies) . . . so last night I got > adventurous and tried a screw roll -- no sweat -- onside, it feels > much more powerful and controlled than my C to C that i have been > relying on. > > My confidence buoyed, I then tried an offside screw roll for the > first time and flubbed it. I dont even want to try an offside C to > C, since my body just doesnt want to bend that far in that direction. > I quickly recovered with an onside C to C . . . > > I tried another offside screw roll, and made it, but barely (paddle > about 18" under the surface or so). > > It occurs to me that while I may with practice get a reliable offside > flatwater screw roll, it will always be much much weaker than my > onside roll, and probably not much use in combat conditions. My left > side just will never be as strong (or as limber) as my right. > > So my question is for those who have actually rolled in combat > conditions (I have not) -- has an offside roll ever been much help > under conditions in which an onside roll was unsuccesfull? I dont > buy the argument that if you may save time with an offside roll if > your paddle happens to be closer to the offside set up position, > since it hardly takes a second to work your paddle into the onside > setup position. I am also not entirely convinced by the argument > that, beam to the seas, there are conditions under which one side is > favored over the other. From my own experience practising in a chop, > successful rolling with beam seas is more a matter of timing than > direction -- you cant roll uphill into either the front or the back > of the wave. In any event, I'd rather be using a strong onside roll > into a wave than a weak offside roll. Even if one side is favored > over the other, can a disoriented upside down kayaker in rough seas really > figure out which is the favored side in a few seconds? > > So is the offside roll just a pool trick to impress people, or has > anybody on this list ever needed it to save their skin? > > > Professor Karl S. Coplan > Pace Environmental Litigation Clinic, Inc. > 78 North Broadway > White Plains, N.Y. 10603 > kcoplan_at_genesis.law.pace.edu > (914) 422-4343 > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 13:06:33 -0400 > From: "Richard Culpeper" <culpeper_at_geocities.com> > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] stroke poll...aw, c'mon > > Hey again Jim: > > You are correct about pushing and straightening the leg which is on the > same side as your stroke -- it is what gets your torso rotating, and that > is where the power comes from. > > Don't push with the opposite leg. This will prevent body rotation and > consequently will limit you to only using your arms rather than all the big > thorax muscles. > > (For some rolls, such as the screw roll, pushing with the opposite leg can > help initiate the hip snap, but this has nothing to do with the forward > stroke.) > > Yes, fishtailing, boat rotation and bobbing should be avoided as much as > possible. Pushing with the opposite leg is not the way to do it. A first > step to avoiding fishtailing is to recover (take the paddle out of the > water) as the paddle approaches your hips. Aside from wasting energy, a > late recovery really messes up boat balance. (Re. my last post, in > addition to thinking unwind, unwind, unwind, also think out, out, out.) > > A solid high forward stroke requires the smooth application of explosive > force, so don't expect it to go to well at first. It is common for sprint > paddlers to torque themselves right out of their boats during power starts > in their first couple of seasons. Give it time. > > Cheers, > Richard Culpeper > www.geocities.com/~culpeper > > - ---------- > > From: Jim Champoux <jim_at_sigall.com> > > To: Paddle~Wise <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net>; Dave Kruger > <dkruger_at_pacifier.com> > > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] stroke poll...aw, c'mon > > Date: Wednesday, June 23, 1999 12:19 PM > > > > Dave, > > Thanks for responding, and your questions. I can explain my purpose for > > limiting my questions. Within the past couple of weeks, I have discovered > a > > very comfortable stroke, during which my body seems to "flow" with the > > paddling motion. It has really improved my enjoyment of paddling and I > > liken it to being "in the zone" paddling doesnt feel like work any more > and > > I do not get sore ( Im not a kid anymore). > > > > The conflict that I have is that I push with the same leg as the power > > stroke. > > > > I have heard, and it makes sense, that pushing your opposite leg (as you > > do) counterracts the paddle, this happens due to the boat leaning > opposite > > from the paddle cancelling out the effects. Like carving a turn but > > paddling on the wrong side. Keep in mind when I say lean I mean just > enough > > to change the geometry of the keel in the water, not a full on sloppy > back > > and forth slosh, > > > > I have tried to decide what is meant by others when they say "push with > the > > opposite leg" does it mean jam the knee up? I can do this by "pushing" > with > > my power side knee, dropping it down.leaving the opposite knee up. > > > > Which is why I phrased my questions in the specific, simplistic manner > that > > I did. I am a little confused.Not confused enough to change my stroke for > a > > less comfortable one but confused enough to see how the list handles > their > > strokes. > > > > Thanks > > Jim > > > > > > Dave Kruger wrote: > > > > > the mechanics of a paddle stroke style are so complex, I > > >wonder how well this medium conveys the style. > > > > > >Nonetheless, other considerations which affect paddling efficiency: > > > > > >1. Where is your catch -- how far forward of your knee? -- how far out > from > > >the hull? -- what is the width of your hull at the catch point? > > > > > >2. Where do you pull the paddle out of the water -- how far back from > your > > >hips? > > > > > >3. How much torso rotation do you incorporate into your stroke? > > > > > >4. Others? > > > > > >-- > > >Dave Kruger > > >Astoria, OR > > > > > > > > > *************************************************************************** > > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > > > *************************************************************************** > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 12:50:27 -0300 > From: SurfBuff <kayaker_at_caribsurf.com> > Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] New Yak Board Owner > > I'm not sure I read all the posts regarding this topic but Ocean Kayaks has just > come out with a new animal the Rrrapido, it's an improvement on the Yak Board, > it's the hottest "sit-on-top" on ocean waves, for people 180 lbs and under. For > people over 180 lbs and right up to about 230 lbs., the Wilderness Systems Kaos > is made to order. > Dave > Barbados > > - ---------- > From: Michael R Noyes[SMTP:mnoyes_at_gsinet.net] > Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 1999 12:26 PM > To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] New Yak Board Owner > > Check out; > http://www.oceankayak.com/ > they make Yak Boards. > > Mike > > BijiliE_at_aol.com wrote: > > > What is a Yakboard? > > > > BijiliE > > > > - -- > Paddling along through fog so thick that only one's thoughts are > visible, your reverie is abruptly shattered by the ancient cry of a great > blue heron as she lifts uncertainly from the brilliant blue of a > mussel-shell beach witnessed only by the brooding, wet spruce....your > passage home seems as much back through time as it does through space. > Mark H Hunt > > > > > > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 14:08:43 -0400 (EDT) > From: Andree Hurley <ahurley_at_viewit.com> > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] securing gear in kayak && bulkheads? > > I've always found it easier to do rescues with bulkheads in place, it's > just not great to fully rely on them - eg. use dry bags in the bulkheaded > compartments too. I originally installed eye bolts in my cockpit and tied > things down using them. > > Practice a lot of t-rescues with and without gear, with and without > bulkheads just to see what happens. We did a rescue practice during a > class with a > popular boat that doesn't have bulkheads but did have a full air bag and > could barely accomplish a t-rescue. > > Andree Hurley > Hurley Design Communications - ICQ# 27469637 > On-line Editor - http://www.canoekayak.com > Other Kayaking - http://www.onwatersports.com - http://www.viewit.com/KIX/ > Web Sites for Specialty Businesses - http://www.viewit.com/HDC/ > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 12:08:44 -0600 (MDT) > From: Mark Zen <canoeist_at_netbox.com> > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Offside roll: how useful? > > On Wed, 23 Jun 1999, Karl Coplan wrote: > > > So my question is for those who have actually rolled in combat > > conditions (I have not) -- has an offside roll ever been much help > > under conditions in which an onside roll was unsuccesfull? I dont > > buy the argument that if you may save time with an offside roll if > > your paddle happens to be closer to the offside set up position, > > since it hardly takes a second to work your paddle into the onside > > setup position. I am also not entirely convinced by the argument > > that, beam to the seas, there are conditions under which one side is > > favored over the other. From my own experience practising in a chop, > > successful rolling with beam seas is more a matter of timing than > > direction -- you cant roll uphill into either the front or the back > > of the wave. In any event, I'd rather be using a strong onside roll > > into a wave than a weak offside roll. Even if one side is favored > > over the other, can a disoriented upside down kayaker in rough seas really > > figure out which is the favored side in a few seconds? > > > > So is the offside roll just a pool trick to impress people, or has > > anybody on this list ever needed it to save their skin? > > i know of conditions were it was certainly needed, high winds, and the > person who went over kept getting blown back over while trying to roll, > and finally did an offside roll to get back up...then the wind helped!! > > mark > > #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com----http://www.diac.com/~zen/mark ---- > # > mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. > po box 474 </ [\/ [_| [_\ > ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') > #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ > http://www.diac.com/~zen/paddler [index to club websites i administer] > > Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club, Colorado River Flows, Poudre Paddlers > The Colorado Paddlers' Resource, Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page > - -- > Fortune: > Do not squander time, for that is the stuff life is made of. > - --Benjamin Franklin > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 13:22:03 -0500 > From: CHUCK_at_multitech.com (Chuck Holst) > Subject: [Paddlewise] Night Vision > > There was a thread on Paddlewise a while ago about the > effects of different-colored lighting on night vision. > Recently I stumbled across the following article, "Seeing > Red," which has quite a bit to say on the subject: > http://www.corvus.com/kniffen.htm. > > The gist of the article, published by the American > Association of Amateur Astronomers, is that light > intensity, not color, affects night vision most, and that > green light is superior to red light because green light > does not have to be as bright as red to read charts and > instruments. Green also makes many chart colors easier > to see. > > I've been trying to figure out how to illuminate our deck > compasses for night navigation. Looks like green LEDs > might be the way to go. > > Chuck Holst > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 14:32:55 EST5EDT > From: "Karl Coplan" <kcoplan_at_Genesis.law.pace.edu> > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Offside roll: how useful? > > Thanks for the direct reply. As a sea kayaker, I dont expect to need > a roll while up against a rock, cliff, boat, dock, etc. I realize > that an offside roll may be important to a ww kayaker, but am not > convinced for sea kayaking. > > Maybe it would make a difference in high winds . . . but you've got > to assume that a weaker offside roll will work with the wind after > your stronger onside roll has failed. Only story I am familiar with > is the one in Sea Kayakers Deep Trouble where the offside roll failed > in high winds right after the onside roll failed (you know, the guy > who was out in SF bay in 50 knot winds . . .) > > - --Karl > > > Professor Karl S. Coplan > Pace Environmental Litigation Clinic, Inc. > 78 North Broadway > White Plains, N.Y. 10603 > kcoplan_at_genesis.law.pace.edu > (914) 422-4343 > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 15:35:51 -0400 (EDT) > From: Andree Hurley <ahurley_at_viewit.com> > Subject: [Paddlewise] Posted images of the forward stroke. > > I guess I have some extra time today as I made a web page with some images > of the forward stroke. The address is: > > http://viewit.com/KIX/KayakFlatWater.html > > Andree Hurley > Hurley Design Communications - ICQ# 27469637 > On-line Editor - http://www.canoekayak.com > Webmaster - Olypic Outdoor Center - http://www.kayakproshop.com > Other Kayaking - http://www.onwatersports.com > Web Sites for Specialty Businesses - http://www.viewit.com/HDC/ > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 13:50:42 -0600 (MDT) > From: Mark Zen <canoeist_at_netbox.com> > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Offside roll: how useful? > > On Wed, 23 Jun 1999, Karl Coplan wrote: > > > Thanks for the direct reply. As a sea kayaker, I dont expect to need > > a roll while up against a rock, cliff, boat, dock, etc. I realize > > that an offside roll may be important to a ww kayaker, but am not > > convinced for sea kayaking. > > > > Maybe it would make a difference in high winds . . . but you've got > > to assume that a weaker offside roll will work with the wind after > > your stronger onside roll has failed. Only story I am familiar with > > is the one in Sea Kayakers Deep Trouble where the offside roll failed > > in high winds right after the onside roll failed (you know, the guy > > who was out in SF bay in 50 knot winds . . .) > > > > --Karl > > 50 knots is mellow ;-) we had the same here yesterday, and earlier this > year, quite significantly higer [110mph] they come out of nowhere [so to > speak ;-] this person's onside roll had him coming up against the wind, > and he just couldn't do it. he then tried an offside roll, and the wind > helped him the rest of the way up!! > > you could pull a muscle, and need to use an alternate roll. maligiaq > padilla [the greenland national kayak champion] has 32 different rolls, on > each side, for 64 total rolls. he doesn't paddle whitewater at all, or > didn't until he came to the USA. the greenlandic people [is eskimo just > alaskan, or is it non-PC?] have developed rolls on both sides because they > know well that doo-doo does indeed happen. > > mark > > #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com----http://www.diac.com/~zen/mark ---- > # > mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. > po box 474 </ [\/ [_| [_\ > ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') > #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ > http://www.diac.com/~zen/paddler [index to club websites i administer] > > Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club, Colorado River Flows, Poudre Paddlers > The Colorado Paddlers' Resource, Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page > - -- > Fortune: > Do not squander time, for that is the stuff life is made of. > - --Benjamin Franklin > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 15:43:20 -0400 (EDT) > From: Kirk Olsen <kolsen_at_imagelan.com> > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Offside roll: how useful? > > On Wed, 23 Jun 1999, Karl Coplan wrote: > > > As a sea kayaker, I dont expect to need > > a roll while up against a rock, cliff, boat, dock, etc. I realize > > that an offside roll may be important to a ww kayaker, but am not > > convinced for sea kayaking. > > If paddling in an area with a lot of moorings/docks or in a rock garden I > could see using it. > > I was paddling with a friend who got swept broadside into a dock, a > potentially ugly situation. His judgement of the speed of the current and > his ability to turn/ferry were off. He opted to quickly climb onto the > dock and pull his boat up with him, he was upright when he impacted the dock. > > > Maybe it would make a difference in high winds . . . but you've got > > to assume that a weaker offside roll will work with the wind after > > your stronger onside roll has failed. Only story I am familiar with > > is the one in Sea Kayakers Deep Trouble where the offside roll failed > > in high winds right after the onside roll failed (you know, the guy > > who was out in SF bay in 50 knot winds . . .) > > That was the example I was thinking of. I've been out sailboarding in > 40+ knot winds. Every trick and skill becomes useful when you are in the > water. > > kirk > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 16:53:50 EST5EDT > From: "Karl Coplan" <kcoplan_at_Genesis.law.pace.edu> > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Offside roll: how useful? > > OK, OK, you have convinced me that in high winds an offside roll can > be a lifesaver. Also for that unexpected pulled muscle. > > But how high do the winds have to get that the wind force will be > more to reckon with than a weaker roll? > > > > Professor Karl S. Coplan > Pace Environmental Litigation Clinic, Inc. > 78 North Broadway > White Plains, N.Y. 10603 > kcoplan_at_genesis.law.pace.edu > (914) 422-4343 > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 16:50:04 -0500 > From: CHUCK_at_multitech.com (Chuck Holst) > Subject: [Paddlewise] Great White Shark > > All you coastal kayakers can breathe a little easier; it seems > the great white shark doesn't find humans very tasty. See > http://www.cnn.com/NATURE/9906/22/finicky.sharks.reut/index.html. > > Chuck Holst > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 14:03:49 -0800 > From: David Seng <David_at_wainet.com> > Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Offside roll: how useful? > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Mark Zen [mailto:canoeist_at_netbox.com] > Snip > > the greenlandic people [is eskimo just alaskan, or is it non-PC?] have > developed rolls on both sides > > because they know well that doo-doo does indeed happen. > > I think that "eskimo" is a generic term for native tribes that > traditionally occupied arctic areas. Here in Alaska most of the tribal > members prefer to be referred to (at least as far as I can tell) by their > tribal name (ie. Inuit, Upik, Tlingit, Tsimshian, etc) rather than as either > Indian or Eskimo. Each of these tribal designations seem to break down even > further into further tribal and clan delineations, but at least the Tlingit > folks that I know don't really hold us "white guys" responsible for knowing > this stuff. > > Dave Seng > Juneau, Alaska > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 20:29:05 EDT > From: WILAX_at_aol.com > Subject: [Paddlewise] Paddle around San Jose? > > Once again I am "stuck" on a business trip so maybe there is a nice > opportunity to paddle. Any advice on where to rent/go would be appreciated. > > I am in the Sunnyvale/San Jose area so its easy to get to SFO, Half Moon Bay > and down to Monteray. I have visited the place in Monteray before but didn't > really paddle out of there. Would there be any neato places to see around > there? Any other suggestions? I prefer staying out of the shipping lanes > and far away from water skiers etc. > > Tom > Rhode Island > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 20:30:47 -0400 > From: dldecker_at_se.mediaone.net > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Great White Shark > > At 04:50 PM 6/23/99 -0500, Chuck Holst wrote: > >All you coastal kayakers can breathe a little easier; it seems > >the great white shark doesn't find humans very tasty. See > http://www.cnn.com/NATURE/9906/22/finicky.sharks.reut/index.html. > > > >Chuck Holst > > > > > Gee Chuck doesn't that mean they still have to bite you before the know > they don't like you?? > > Dana > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 20:45:55 -0400 > From: "Larry Bliven" <foxhill_at_shore.intercom.net> > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Great White Shark > > Bite back, > > Today i had lunch at Rays Shanty on the road to Chincoteague Island, VA. > Ray fishes. > Today's special: a macko shark that happened to bite ray's hand.... > mighty fine sandwich. > > cu, > bliven > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 22:06:05 EDT > From: KiAyker_at_aol.com > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Offside roll: how useful? > > In a message dated 6/23/99 10:09:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > kcoplan_at_Genesis.law.pace.edu writes: > > << So my question is for those who have actually rolled in combat > conditions (I have not) -- has an offside roll ever been much help > under conditions in which an onside roll was unsuccesfull? >> > > Years ago I decided to develop an offside roll. Once I had accomplished > this I realized that even though I could roll offside, every time I needed to > roll (I surf kayaks a lot) I rolled onside. So I decided from then on I would > roll offside until it became at least as strong as my onside roll. After > about a year my offside had become stronger then my onside. In fact, my > onside roll was beginning to suffer. So I switched back to my onside again. I > paddle in large swell and surf, stiff winds and such, and have a couple of > stories where having an offside roll was almost useful. Almost. > Today, the arthritis in my offside shoulder has pretty much dictated > which side I roll on. I think if you do rolling demos, then a couple of > offside rolls would probably help break up the monotony. Otherwise, I > sincerely doubt that any of us will ever find ourselves in a life threatening > situation where only an offside roll will save us. Just my opinion. > > Scott > So.Cal. > > ------------------------------ > > End of PaddleWise V1 #580 > ************************* > > *************************** > PaddleWise Digest > *************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> > Hello Paddle Wisers, > > This is a response to the thread on paddling technique. > > When I teach students in Minneapolis/St. Paul I use an > acronym to teach proper paddling technique. The acronym > is PROBE and here is a breakdown of it. > > P Posture; > P Pull and Push; > R Rotation of the Torso; > O Open Your Hand; > B Paddlers Box; > E Elbow; > E Extension; Wouldn't that be PPROBEE? -- John Fereira jaf30_at_cornell.edu *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Don Dimond wrote: >E Extension; you should never fully extend your arm when >paddling for you can hurt your shoulder joint. Just like >bicyclists who always have a bend in their leg as they >pedal we need to have a slight bend in our arms when we >paddle. When I was younger and doing a lot of long-distance bike touring, I always understood that exactly the opposite is true: that if your bike seat is too low for your legs to fully extend, the strain on the knee is increased. I also learned to paddle a canoe with a straight upper arm. Obviously, Don's advice contradicts what I have been taught. Can anyone suggest a reliable source for information about proper injury-avoiding stroke technique? Su Penn *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Su Penn wrote: > > Don Dimond wrote: > > >E Extension; you should never fully extend your arm when > >paddling for you can hurt your shoulder joint. Just like > >bicyclists who always have a bend in their leg as they > >pedal we need to have a slight bend in our arms when we > >paddle. > > When I was younger and doing a lot of long-distance bike touring, I always > understood that exactly the opposite is true: that if your bike seat is too > low for your legs to fully extend, the strain on the knee is increased. Every bike book I've ever read--and I'm not a big biker, says keep the seat high enough to allow a small bend in your knee, ie, not quite fully extended. When the knee or arm are fully extended, the weight is being carried by the joint; with a little bend, the muscles support the effort. Joints wear out, muscles get stronger. The above is worth every bit of what you paid for it. Steve -- Test Scoring & Reporting Services Sometimes, you never can University of Georgia always tell what you Athens, GA 30602-5593 least expect the most. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:33:00 PDT