I got inspired by Shawn's reports of his rolling successes (at least I think it was Shawn; if not, apologies) . . . so last night I got adventurous and tried a screw roll -- no sweat -- onside, it feels much more powerful and controlled than my C to C that i have been relying on. My confidence buoyed, I then tried an offside screw roll for the first time and flubbed it. I dont even want to try an offside C to C, since my body just doesnt want to bend that far in that direction. I quickly recovered with an onside C to C . . . I tried another offside screw roll, and made it, but barely (paddle about 18" under the surface or so). It occurs to me that while I may with practice get a reliable offside flatwater screw roll, it will always be much much weaker than my onside roll, and probably not much use in combat conditions. My left side just will never be as strong (or as limber) as my right. So my question is for those who have actually rolled in combat conditions (I have not) -- has an offside roll ever been much help under conditions in which an onside roll was unsuccesfull? I dont buy the argument that if you may save time with an offside roll if your paddle happens to be closer to the offside set up position, since it hardly takes a second to work your paddle into the onside setup position. I am also not entirely convinced by the argument that, beam to the seas, there are conditions under which one side is favored over the other. From my own experience practising in a chop, successful rolling with beam seas is more a matter of timing than direction -- you cant roll uphill into either the front or the back of the wave. In any event, I'd rather be using a strong onside roll into a wave than a weak offside roll. Even if one side is favored over the other, can a disoriented upside down kayaker in rough seas really figure out which is the favored side in a few seconds? So is the offside roll just a pool trick to impress people, or has anybody on this list ever needed it to save their skin? Professor Karl S. Coplan Pace Environmental Litigation Clinic, Inc. 78 North Broadway White Plains, N.Y. 10603 kcoplan_at_genesis.law.pace.edu (914) 422-4343 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, 23 Jun 1999, Karl Coplan wrote: > So my question is for those who have actually rolled in combat > conditions (I have not) -- has an offside roll ever been much help > under conditions in which an onside roll was unsuccesfull? I dont > buy the argument that if you may save time with an offside roll if > your paddle happens to be closer to the offside set up position, > since it hardly takes a second to work your paddle into the onside > setup position. I am also not entirely convinced by the argument > that, beam to the seas, there are conditions under which one side is > favored over the other. From my own experience practising in a chop, > successful rolling with beam seas is more a matter of timing than > direction -- you cant roll uphill into either the front or the back > of the wave. In any event, I'd rather be using a strong onside roll > into a wave than a weak offside roll. Even if one side is favored > over the other, can a disoriented upside down kayaker in rough seas really > figure out which is the favored side in a few seconds? > > So is the offside roll just a pool trick to impress people, or has > anybody on this list ever needed it to save their skin? i know of conditions were it was certainly needed, high winds, and the person who went over kept getting blown back over while trying to roll, and finally did an offside roll to get back up...then the wind helped!! mark #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com----http://www.diac.com/~zen/mark ---- # mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. po box 474 </ [\/ [_| [_\ ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ http://www.diac.com/~zen/paddler [index to club websites i administer] Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club, Colorado River Flows, Poudre Paddlers The Colorado Paddlers' Resource, Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page -- Fortune: Do not squander time, for that is the stuff life is made of. --Benjamin Franklin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Thanks for the direct reply. As a sea kayaker, I dont expect to need a roll while up against a rock, cliff, boat, dock, etc. I realize that an offside roll may be important to a ww kayaker, but am not convinced for sea kayaking. Maybe it would make a difference in high winds . . . but you've got to assume that a weaker offside roll will work with the wind after your stronger onside roll has failed. Only story I am familiar with is the one in Sea Kayakers Deep Trouble where the offside roll failed in high winds right after the onside roll failed (you know, the guy who was out in SF bay in 50 knot winds . . .) --Karl Professor Karl S. Coplan Pace Environmental Litigation Clinic, Inc. 78 North Broadway White Plains, N.Y. 10603 kcoplan_at_genesis.law.pace.edu (914) 422-4343 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, 23 Jun 1999, Karl Coplan wrote: > As a sea kayaker, I dont expect to need > a roll while up against a rock, cliff, boat, dock, etc. I realize > that an offside roll may be important to a ww kayaker, but am not > convinced for sea kayaking. If paddling in an area with a lot of moorings/docks or in a rock garden I could see using it. I was paddling with a friend who got swept broadside into a dock, a potentially ugly situation. His judgement of the speed of the current and his ability to turn/ferry were off. He opted to quickly climb onto the dock and pull his boat up with him, he was upright when he impacted the dock. > Maybe it would make a difference in high winds . . . but you've got > to assume that a weaker offside roll will work with the wind after > your stronger onside roll has failed. Only story I am familiar with > is the one in Sea Kayakers Deep Trouble where the offside roll failed > in high winds right after the onside roll failed (you know, the guy > who was out in SF bay in 50 knot winds . . .) That was the example I was thinking of. I've been out sailboarding in 40+ knot winds. Every trick and skill becomes useful when you are in the water. kirk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Karl; I hope this reply is not redundant but I just returned early this morning from paddling off the west coast of Scotland and I have not been following the thread well. The presumption in your comment is that sea kayakers only fall over when out to sea. In reality it is not uncommon to find yourself in or around rocks and cliffs etc if you are paddling on the sea. Wave, current and wind action around these areas can make for very challenging paddling and an offside role could prove to be very valuable indeed. John Winskill Karl Coplan wrote: > > Thanks for the direct reply. As a sea kayaker, I dont expect to need > a roll while up against a rock, cliff, boat, dock, etc. I realize > that an offside roll may be important to a ww kayaker, but am not > convinced for sea kayaking. > > Maybe it would make a difference in high winds . . . but you've got > to assume that a weaker offside roll will work with the wind after > your stronger onside roll has failed. Only story I am familiar with > is the one in Sea Kayakers Deep Trouble where the offside roll failed > in high winds right after the onside roll failed (you know, the guy > who was out in SF bay in 50 knot winds . . .) > > --Karl > > Professor Karl S. Coplan > Pace Environmental Litigation Clinic, Inc. > 78 North Broadway > White Plains, N.Y. 10603 > kcoplan_at_genesis.law.pace.edu > (914) 422-4343 > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, 23 Jun 1999, Karl Coplan wrote: > Thanks for the direct reply. As a sea kayaker, I dont expect to need > a roll while up against a rock, cliff, boat, dock, etc. I realize > that an offside roll may be important to a ww kayaker, but am not > convinced for sea kayaking. > > Maybe it would make a difference in high winds . . . but you've got > to assume that a weaker offside roll will work with the wind after > your stronger onside roll has failed. Only story I am familiar with > is the one in Sea Kayakers Deep Trouble where the offside roll failed > in high winds right after the onside roll failed (you know, the guy > who was out in SF bay in 50 knot winds . . .) > > --Karl 50 knots is mellow ;-) we had the same here yesterday, and earlier this year, quite significantly higer [110mph] they come out of nowhere [so to speak ;-] this person's onside roll had him coming up against the wind, and he just couldn't do it. he then tried an offside roll, and the wind helped him the rest of the way up!! you could pull a muscle, and need to use an alternate roll. maligiaq padilla [the greenland national kayak champion] has 32 different rolls, on each side, for 64 total rolls. he doesn't paddle whitewater at all, or didn't until he came to the USA. the greenlandic people [is eskimo just alaskan, or is it non-PC?] have developed rolls on both sides because they know well that doo-doo does indeed happen. mark #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com----http://www.diac.com/~zen/mark ---- # mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. po box 474 </ [\/ [_| [_\ ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ http://www.diac.com/~zen/paddler [index to club websites i administer] Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club, Colorado River Flows, Poudre Paddlers The Colorado Paddlers' Resource, Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page -- Fortune: Do not squander time, for that is the stuff life is made of. --Benjamin Franklin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
OK, OK, you have convinced me that in high winds an offside roll can be a lifesaver. Also for that unexpected pulled muscle. But how high do the winds have to get that the wind force will be more to reckon with than a weaker roll? Professor Karl S. Coplan Pace Environmental Litigation Clinic, Inc. 78 North Broadway White Plains, N.Y. 10603 kcoplan_at_genesis.law.pace.edu (914) 422-4343 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Zen [mailto:canoeist_at_netbox.com] Snip > the greenlandic people [is eskimo just alaskan, or is it non-PC?] have developed rolls on both sides > because they know well that doo-doo does indeed happen. I think that "eskimo" is a generic term for native tribes that traditionally occupied arctic areas. Here in Alaska most of the tribal members prefer to be referred to (at least as far as I can tell) by their tribal name (ie. Inuit, Upik, Tlingit, Tsimshian, etc) rather than as either Indian or Eskimo. Each of these tribal designations seem to break down even further into further tribal and clan delineations, but at least the Tlingit folks that I know don't really hold us "white guys" responsible for knowing this stuff. Dave Seng Juneau, Alaska *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 6/23/99 10:09:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time, kcoplan_at_Genesis.law.pace.edu writes: << So my question is for those who have actually rolled in combat conditions (I have not) -- has an offside roll ever been much help under conditions in which an onside roll was unsuccesfull? >> Years ago I decided to develop an offside roll. Once I had accomplished this I realized that even though I could roll offside, every time I needed to roll (I surf kayaks a lot) I rolled onside. So I decided from then on I would roll offside until it became at least as strong as my onside roll. After about a year my offside had become stronger then my onside. In fact, my onside roll was beginning to suffer. So I switched back to my onside again. I paddle in large swell and surf, stiff winds and such, and have a couple of stories where having an offside roll was almost useful. Almost. Today, the arthritis in my offside shoulder has pretty much dictated which side I roll on. I think if you do rolling demos, then a couple of offside rolls would probably help break up the monotony. Otherwise, I sincerely doubt that any of us will ever find ourselves in a life threatening situation where only an offside roll will save us. Just my opinion. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
As an anthropologist I've always been taught that Eskimo is considered rather derogatory ( or un-PC, rather) when applied to all tribes and that its much better to be more precise and use a name specific to each group of people. > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Zen [mailto:canoeist_at_netbox.com] Snip > the greenlandic people [is eskimo just alaskan, or is it non-PC?] have developed rolls on both sides > because they know well that doo-doo does indeed happen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Is there a more better (or more PC) term than Eskimo when you don't know the tribe or to refer to a group of tribes? -----Original Message----- From: Allison Corning <acorning_at_hotmail.com> To: David_at_wainet.com <David_at_wainet.com>; canoeist_at_netbox.com <canoeist_at_netbox.com>; paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Date: Thursday, June 24, 1999 1:45 PM Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Offside roll: how useful? >As an anthropologist I've always been taught that Eskimo is considered >rather derogatory ( or un-PC, rather) when applied to all tribes and that >its much better to be more precise and use a name specific to each group of >people. > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
One thing useful about an offside roll is that your setup will become automatic as you start to capsize on either side. It seems to make sense to continue the roll in the direction of the capsize (you have momentum in the right direction and your paddle is already in the right place, etc). In his book, "The Bombproof Roll and Beyond," Paul Dutky suggests that if you miss the first roll, try to roll up next on the other side. Your paddle is already setup for a roll on the other side and you will now be going the "right" direction in the current, wind, etc. (that may have caused you to miss the first roll). I'm not sure my explanation came out right, but it sounds like it makes a lot of sense in his book! Frank *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Actually the term is Inuit (meaning the people). Canadian Inuit are offended when you use the word Eskimo for their people. (Eskimo roughly translated means raw meat eaters). :) Jim Meldrum > -----Original Message----- > From: Whiterabbit [SMTP:whiterabbit_at_empowering.com] > Sent: Thursday, June 24, 1999 1:15 PM > To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Offside roll: how useful? > > Is there a more better (or more PC) term than Eskimo when you don't know > the > tribe or to refer to a group of tribes? > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Allison Corning <acorning_at_hotmail.com> > To: David_at_wainet.com <David_at_wainet.com>; canoeist_at_netbox.com > <canoeist_at_netbox.com>; paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> > Date: Thursday, June 24, 1999 1:45 PM > Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Offside roll: how useful? > > > >As an anthropologist I've always been taught that Eskimo is considered > >rather derogatory ( or un-PC, rather) when applied to all tribes and that > >its much better to be more precise and use a name specific to each group > of > >people. > > > > > > ************************************************************************** > * > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > ************************************************************************** > * *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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