G'day, Thanks to everyone for the descriptions of paddling technique. When using a rudder I find that I'm alternately pushing the right and left pedals in response to the paddling stroke, This doesn't seem right! But the kayak seems to track well. I've often wondered how much speed I'm losing and how to improve the situation? PeterO >> >5) when you paddle does the stern of your boat zig zag? > >No.. > >Andree Hurley *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Barbara Kossey Wrote: >I think the reason few answered is that is so damn tedious to write about a >paddle stroke. It's technical writing. Videos are better. >Barbara > Barbara, With all the respect due you, are you serious? Tedious?...*Tedious*? This list eats breathes and sleeps tedious, its what we live for. Seriously, I have never, ever, ever heard anyone make a distinction that writing about a paddle stroke is "technical writing" or "tedious" I mean, how basic to paddling is your stroke...surely a good stroke brings you more comfort and joy than knowing the esoterica involved in cross linked polymeric chains or...well, you know what I mean. As far as relieving you all from the tediousness of technical writing, I had posed my poll as a series of questions which can be answered pretty much with one word sentences, repeated below Let me repeat, I am not interested in "exposing" anyone or embarrasing anyone, or even making anyone think about their stroke. I am just a newbie paddler who is curious about how other people who enjoy and take comfort in their paddle stroke do it. I have found out that using my legs really does help my paddling and I have found out that depending on which leg I "push" changes the direction of the stern of my boat. I am trying to reconcile comfort with efficiency. Maybe someone out there has done the same. ___________________________________________________________________ >Im trying to deconstruct my stroke. I have finally found a really >comfortable stroke that I can seemingly use all day long. Just curious >about how you all do it. > >let's assume that when the left blade enters the water, its point A >when the left blade leaves the water, point B >right blade enters the water, its point C >when the right blade leaves the water, point D > > >1) when you paddle, do you "pedal" your boat; that is to say do you exert >pressure on one foot then the other, depending on where you are in your >stroke? > >2) If you do, when do you push with your right leg (A->B,B->C,C->D, B->A etc) > >3) When you push with your right leg, are you also pushing your knee >upwards, or does your opposite knee pull up? > >4) when your left paddle is in the water between A and B which way does >your boat lean left or right? > >5) when you paddle does the stern of your boat zig zag? > > >Maybe you can answer these, try not to think about it too hard, you know, >try for "muscle memory" answers. > >thanks alot >jim > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jim Champoux wrote: >Im trying to deconstruct my stroke. I have finally found a really >comfortable stroke that I can seemingly use all day long. Just curious >about how you all do it. > >let's assume that when the left blade enters the water, its point A >when the left blade leaves the water, point B >right blade enters the water, its point C >when the right blade leaves the water, point D > > >1) when you paddle, do you "pedal" your boat; that is to say do you exert >pressure on one foot then the other, depending on where you are in your >stroke? Feels like my butt and my feet do most of the pushing. Not limited to the foot at all. >2) If you do, when do you push with your right leg (A->B,B->C,C->D, B->A etc) > >3) When you push with your right leg, are you also pushing your knee >upwards, or does your opposite knee pull up? Neither is pushing up markedly. >4) when your left paddle is in the water between A and B which way does >your boat lean left or right? Neither -- my stroke minimizes lean, and my upper torso remains relatively vertical. >5) when you paddle does the stern of your boat zig zag? Yup. Has to, 'cause we paddle alternately, side on side. Re: nonresponse: the mechanics of a paddle stroke style are so complex, I wonder how well this medium conveys the style. Nonetheless, other considerations which affect paddling efficiency: 1. Where is your catch -- how far forward of your knee? -- how far out from the hull? -- what is the width of your hull at the catch point? 2. Where do you pull the paddle out of the water -- how far back from your hips? 3. How much torso rotation do you incorporate into your stroke? 4. Others? -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave, Thanks for responding, and your questions. I can explain my purpose for limiting my questions. Within the past couple of weeks, I have discovered a very comfortable stroke, during which my body seems to "flow" with the paddling motion. It has really improved my enjoyment of paddling and I liken it to being "in the zone" paddling doesnt feel like work any more and I do not get sore ( Im not a kid anymore). The conflict that I have is that I push with the same leg as the power stroke. I have heard, and it makes sense, that pushing your opposite leg (as you do) counterracts the paddle, this happens due to the boat leaning opposite from the paddle cancelling out the effects. Like carving a turn but paddling on the wrong side. Keep in mind when I say lean I mean just enough to change the geometry of the keel in the water, not a full on sloppy back and forth slosh, I have tried to decide what is meant by others when they say "push with the opposite leg" does it mean jam the knee up? I can do this by "pushing" with my power side knee, dropping it down.leaving the opposite knee up. Which is why I phrased my questions in the specific, simplistic manner that I did. I am a little confused.Not confused enough to change my stroke for a less comfortable one but confused enough to see how the list handles their strokes. Thanks Jim Dave Kruger wrote: > the mechanics of a paddle stroke style are so complex, I >wonder how well this medium conveys the style. > >Nonetheless, other considerations which affect paddling efficiency: > >1. Where is your catch -- how far forward of your knee? -- how far out from >the hull? -- what is the width of your hull at the catch point? > >2. Where do you pull the paddle out of the water -- how far back from your >hips? > >3. How much torso rotation do you incorporate into your stroke? > >4. Others? > >-- >Dave Kruger >Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I guess I'll bite, but I'll also recommend Performance Sea Kayaking by Kent Ford. > >1) when you paddle, do you "pedal" your boat; that is to say do you exert > >pressure on one foot then the other, depending on where you are in your > >stroke? Same foot as active blade in the water. It's all wrapped up with the upper body rotation (wind-up, plant, rotate, release) > > > >3) When you push with your right leg, are you also pushing your knee > >upwards, or does your opposite knee pull up? If you watch Greg Barton and other flat water competitors, you'll see their knees pumping. I was sitting next to a surgeon once while watching some athletes train, and he was seeing the dollars in knee surgery accumulating! > > > >4) when your left paddle is in the water between A and B which way does > >your boat lean left or right? Boat stays still in all directions (except in moving forward of course) > > > >5) when you paddle does the stern of your boat zig zag? No.. Andree Hurley Hurley Design Communications - ICQ# 27469637 On-line Editor - http://www.canoekayak.com Other Kayaking - http://www.onwatersports.com - http://www.viewit.com/KIX/ Web Sites for Specialty Businesses - http://www.viewit.com/HDC/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I guess I have some extra time today as I made a web page with some images of the forward stroke. The address is: http://viewit.com/KIX/KayakFlatWater.html Andree Hurley Hurley Design Communications - ICQ# 27469637 On-line Editor - http://www.canoekayak.com Webmaster - Olypic Outdoor Center - http://www.kayakproshop.com Other Kayaking - http://www.onwatersports.com Web Sites for Specialty Businesses - http://www.viewit.com/HDC/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, 23 Jun 1999, Jim Champoux wrote: > Let me repeat, I am not interested in "exposing" anyone or embarrasing > anyone, or even making anyone think about their stroke. I am just a newbie > paddler who is curious about how other people who enjoy and take comfort in > their paddle stroke do it. I have found out that using my legs really does > help my paddling and I have found out that depending on which leg I "push" > changes the direction of the stern of my boat. I am trying to reconcile > comfort with efficiency. Maybe someone out there has done the same. > > > ___________________________________________________________________ > >Im trying to deconstruct my stroke. I have finally found a really > >comfortable stroke that I can seemingly use all day long. Just curious > >about how you all do it. > > > >let's assume that when the left blade enters the water, its point A > >when the left blade leaves the water, point B > >right blade enters the water, its point C > >when the right blade leaves the water, point D > > > > > >1) when you paddle, do you "pedal" your boat; that is to say do you exert > >pressure on one foot then the other, depending on where you are in your > >stroke? canoe, nope. kayak, yes. > >2) If you do, when do you push with your right leg (A->B,B->C,C->D, B->A > etc) canoe, n/a kayak, a->b > >3) When you push with your right leg, are you also pushing your knee > >upwards, or does your opposite knee pull up? canoe, n/a kayak, no, no > >4) when your left paddle is in the water between A and B which way does > >your boat lean left or right? canoe, sorry, my paddle stays on one side of my boat ;-) kayak, i try not to let the boat lean unless i want it to > >5) when you paddle does the stern of your boat zig zag? canoe, yes. kayak, yes also. > >Maybe you can answer these, try not to think about it too hard, you know, > >try for "muscle memory" answers. > > > >thanks alot > >jim i don't think you'll really learn much from this, but good luck. mark #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com----http://www.diac.com/~zen/mark ---- # mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. po box 474 </ [\/ [_| [_\ ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ http://www.diac.com/~zen/paddler [index to club websites i administer] Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club, Colorado River Flows, Poudre Paddlers The Colorado Paddlers' Resource, Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page -- Fortune: Do not squander time, for that is the stuff life is made of. --Benjamin Franklin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jim, I'm also a newbie who has recently figured out a stroke I like--though I'm still not sure it's the right one! I'm trying to learn. But I'll dive in and answer your questions. >>1) when you paddle, do you "pedal" your boat; that is to say do you exert >>pressure on one foot then the other, depending on where you are in your >>stroke? I think I do something like this; I got a helpful tip early on about using my lower back and thighs to move the boat past the paddle blade in the water. I am trying to replicate my stroke in an office chair right now and tell you what's happening: I think I lift or push forward the hip on the same side of the boat as the paddle blade which is in the water, and push with that foot. >>3) When you push with your right leg, are you also pushing your knee >>upwards, or does your opposite knee pull up? Same knee. >> >>4) when your left paddle is in the water between A and B which way does >>your boat lean left or right? My boat is a Loon 138, so stable in the water that I don't think it leans noticeably on a regular stroke. >> >>5) when you paddle does the stern of your boat zig zag? This seems to depend a lot on where I'm placing the paddle blade. In the stroke I'm learning to like, the paddle is nearly vertical and the blade travels through the water very near the boat. This seems to give me a lot of speed and forward motion, and the boat barely zigs or zags at all. I know that people doing the kind of casual, recreational paddling I do often paddle with their paddles less vertical and the blade farther from the boat, and I've tried to develop such a stroke as a kind of resting stroke, but I get frustrated at recognizing that so much of my energy is going to turn the boat, as evidenced by the distinct wagging of my bow. I'm interested in the vertical-versus-horizontal paddling thing. There don't seem to be any kayaking books out there called things like "The Complete Causal Recreational Class-I River Paddler," so I'm trying to piece together useful bits of info for myself from books on whitewater paddling and sea kayaking (and from talking to more experienced paddlers, of course). Whitewater books stress a high angle on the paddle, while sea kayaking books stress the opposite. Each recommendation makes sense for the kinds of conditions being paddled in, and I'm not quite sure where the kind of paddling I do fits in. I'd be interested to hear about this aspect of paddling, if people feel like dropping in their two cents. Su Penn *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Jim: 1) Yes, some folks do paddle with their legs, the purpose being to use the large leg and thorax muscles rather than wee little arm muscles. For this type of stroke (often called the high stroke), break you stroke into setup, catch, pull, and recovery. During the pull, try to keep your arms fairly straight so that force transmits through the bones rather than working the muscles (obviously a huge exaggeration, so don't take it literally). Rather than hauling back with your arms, propel the boat by rotating your body. Key to rotating your body is to drive with the leg on the side on which you are stroking. When you straighten your leg, one of the cheeks of your butt slides back, and this rotates your body. Recover (take the paddle out of the water) as the paddle approaches your hips. (Obviously you'll bend one of your arms at this point). If the pull went well, this will leave you all wound up, wanting to unwind by taking a stroke on the other side. Instead of thinking stroke, stroke, stroke, think unwind, unwind, unwind. Sortta like scything wheat. A lot of folks don't like this type of stroke. It takes a lot of energy, so it is good for short quick jaunts, but requires conditioning to be used for extended periods. Most boats are not set up with footboards that you can drive aggressively against. Many boats are outfitted for bracing and rolling so they do not let you slide about on your seat. To best see it, check out folks in Olympic sprint racing kayaks. (You also mentioned movement of the boat -- try to keep the boat moving as smoothly as possible -- no turning, no rotating, no bobbing.) 2) Is this dull to write about? Yup. And that's coming from a fellow who had a prior life as a technical writer. More seriously, the forward stroke (particularly the high stroke) is best taught one on one. The information I just gave you is an extreme over-simplification. Describing the technique thoroughly would take a huge amount of time. This effort has to be weighed against what it would take to simply go out with an instructor and take some lessons. For example, I'll be introducing the high forward stroke to some beginners tonight. I'd be willing to bet that they get a lot more out of our time on the water than anyone would from reading this post. Some topics are best discussed in text (e.g. "esoterica involved in cross linked polymeric chains"), but others, such as introducing new paddlers to the high forward stroke, are best handled on the water in person. Lots more feedback and less room for misunderstanding or development of bad habits that way. Perhaps the best way for you to learn more about the high forward stroke would be to ask the folks on Paddlewise if they can refer you to instructors in your area. No one is trying to give you the short shift. You have some great questions which deserve solid answers, but we just can't give you the answers that you deserve over the net anywhere near as well as we could in person. Cheers, Richard Culpeper www.geocities.com/~culpeper ---------- > From: Jim Champoux <jim_at_sigall.com> > To: Paddle~Wise <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] stroke poll...aw, c'mon > Date: Wednesday, June 23, 1999 11:11 AM > > Barbara Kossey Wrote: > > >I think the reason few answered is that is so damn tedious to write about a > >paddle stroke. It's technical writing. Videos are better. > >Barbara > > > > > > Barbara, > With all the respect due you, are you serious? Tedious?...*Tedious*? This > list eats breathes and sleeps tedious, its what we live for. Seriously, I > have never, ever, ever heard anyone make a distinction that writing about a > paddle stroke is "technical writing" or "tedious" I mean, how basic to > paddling is your stroke...surely a good stroke brings you more comfort and > joy than knowing the esoterica involved in cross linked polymeric chains > or...well, you know what I mean. > As far as relieving you all from the tediousness of technical writing, I > had posed my poll as a series of questions which can be answered pretty > much with one word sentences, repeated below > > Let me repeat, I am not interested in "exposing" anyone or embarrasing > anyone, or even making anyone think about their stroke. I am just a newbie > paddler who is curious about how other people who enjoy and take comfort in > their paddle stroke do it. I have found out that using my legs really does > help my paddling and I have found out that depending on which leg I "push" > changes the direction of the stern of my boat. I am trying to reconcile > comfort with efficiency. Maybe someone out there has done the same. > > > ___________________________________________________________________ > >Im trying to deconstruct my stroke. I have finally found a really > >comfortable stroke that I can seemingly use all day long. Just curious > >about how you all do it. > > > >let's assume that when the left blade enters the water, its point A > >when the left blade leaves the water, point B > >right blade enters the water, its point C > >when the right blade leaves the water, point D > > > > > >1) when you paddle, do you "pedal" your boat; that is to say do you exert > >pressure on one foot then the other, depending on where you are in your > >stroke? > > > >2) If you do, when do you push with your right leg (A->B,B->C,C->D, B->A > etc) > > > >3) When you push with your right leg, are you also pushing your knee > >upwards, or does your opposite knee pull up? > > > >4) when your left paddle is in the water between A and B which way does > >your boat lean left or right? > > > >5) when you paddle does the stern of your boat zig zag? > > > > > >Maybe you can answer these, try not to think about it too hard, you know, > >try for "muscle memory" answers. > > > >thanks alot > >jim > > > > > > > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hey again Jim: You are correct about pushing and straightening the leg which is on the same side as your stroke -- it is what gets your torso rotating, and that is where the power comes from. Don't push with the opposite leg. This will prevent body rotation and consequently will limit you to only using your arms rather than all the big thorax muscles. (For some rolls, such as the screw roll, pushing with the opposite leg can help initiate the hip snap, but this has nothing to do with the forward stroke.) Yes, fishtailing, boat rotation and bobbing should be avoided as much as possible. Pushing with the opposite leg is not the way to do it. A first step to avoiding fishtailing is to recover (take the paddle out of the water) as the paddle approaches your hips. Aside from wasting energy, a late recovery really messes up boat balance. (Re. my last post, in addition to thinking unwind, unwind, unwind, also think out, out, out.) A solid high forward stroke requires the smooth application of explosive force, so don't expect it to go to well at first. It is common for sprint paddlers to torque themselves right out of their boats during power starts in their first couple of seasons. Give it time. Cheers, Richard Culpeper www.geocities.com/~culpeper ---------- > From: Jim Champoux <jim_at_sigall.com> > To: Paddle~Wise <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net>; Dave Kruger <dkruger_at_pacifier.com> > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] stroke poll...aw, c'mon > Date: Wednesday, June 23, 1999 12:19 PM > > Dave, > Thanks for responding, and your questions. I can explain my purpose for > limiting my questions. Within the past couple of weeks, I have discovered a > very comfortable stroke, during which my body seems to "flow" with the > paddling motion. It has really improved my enjoyment of paddling and I > liken it to being "in the zone" paddling doesnt feel like work any more and > I do not get sore ( Im not a kid anymore). > > The conflict that I have is that I push with the same leg as the power > stroke. > > I have heard, and it makes sense, that pushing your opposite leg (as you > do) counterracts the paddle, this happens due to the boat leaning opposite > from the paddle cancelling out the effects. Like carving a turn but > paddling on the wrong side. Keep in mind when I say lean I mean just enough > to change the geometry of the keel in the water, not a full on sloppy back > and forth slosh, > > I have tried to decide what is meant by others when they say "push with the > opposite leg" does it mean jam the knee up? I can do this by "pushing" with > my power side knee, dropping it down.leaving the opposite knee up. > > Which is why I phrased my questions in the specific, simplistic manner that > I did. I am a little confused.Not confused enough to change my stroke for a > less comfortable one but confused enough to see how the list handles their > strokes. > > Thanks > Jim > > > Dave Kruger wrote: > > > the mechanics of a paddle stroke style are so complex, I > >wonder how well this medium conveys the style. > > > >Nonetheless, other considerations which affect paddling efficiency: > > > >1. Where is your catch -- how far forward of your knee? -- how far out from > >the hull? -- what is the width of your hull at the catch point? > > > >2. Where do you pull the paddle out of the water -- how far back from your > >hips? > > > >3. How much torso rotation do you incorporate into your stroke? > > > >4. Others? > > > >-- > >Dave Kruger > >Astoria, OR > > > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Richard Culperer wrote: > >A solid high forward stroke requires the smooth application of explosive >force, >A lot of folks don't like this type of stroke. It takes a lot of energy, >so it is good for short quick jaunts, but requires conditioning to be used >for extended periods. Long distance racing friends of mine use this stroke and win 20 mile races. It requires a paddle 220 cm or less. I have tried to learn this stroke with a short power paddle, but it seems much more tiring to me than my own 230 cm paddle with a smallish blade and low stroke. The key to either is power from the torso, with almost no motion at the elbow during the power phase. Ken Fink just wrote a long interesting article for Atlantic Coastal Kayaker on paddles. He advises Euro paddles less than 220 cm and avoiding the low stroke. Jerry *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
,<NIP> >> >5) when you paddle does the stern of your boat zig zag? > >No.. > >Andree Hurley Andree, it appears you are still paddling that old Dawn Treader. I'll bet if you get somebody to follow right behind you to check that even that stiff old Dawn Treader will zig-zag a little. Really put the power to it though and then it might only zag. Matt Broze >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Yeah, well, I wasn't talking about MY boat! I love my Dawn Treader to bits. I wish someone would make a new incarnation of it....you know every boat has to have at least one flaw! You know it ended up doing pretty well in the Sea to Ski race a couple of years ago! > ,<NIP> > >> >5) when you paddle does the stern of your boat zig zag? > > > >No.. > > > >Andree Hurley > > > Andree, it appears you are still paddling that old Dawn Treader. I'll bet if > you get somebody to follow right behind you to check that even that stiff > old Dawn Treader will zig-zag a little. Really put the power to it though > and then it might only zag. > Matt Broze Andree Hurley Hurley Design Communications - ICQ# 27469637 On-line Editor - http://www.canoekayak.com Other Kayaking - http://www.onwatersports.com Web Sites for Specialty Businesses - http://www.viewit.com/HDC/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jim - I'm with Barbara on this one. I'll admit that I delete the things on this list which I'm sure I won't be interested in. I haven't the time to read and/or reply to everything here. Worse yet, I really don't paddle forward in the same way at all times. I haven't the expertise or the time to lay out in print the exact ways in which I paddle under which different circumstances. Sorry if this seems to be petty. I don't mean to belittle your query, only to explain why I can't honor it. I suspect others may feel the same. - Bill Hansen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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