I've just received and read the post I sent to the group June 23 RE: Jim's request that we analyze our forward strokes and post details of the analysis to the group. It comes across to me, its author, as a sniping, unkind note. I'm truly sorry for that. I didn't intend that mindset or tone. The various posts on forward technique have been of interest to me - some of the approaches (push with the same foot as your on-water arm) are quite different from what I've been taught both in ACA and BCU courses. But I guess that's why they make chocllate, vanilla, and strawberry. Jim and others - please know that I did not intend to be dismissive or brusque. - Bill Hansen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: Bhansen97_at_aol.com <Bhansen97_at_aol.com> The various >posts on forward technique have been of interest to me - some of the >approaches (push with the same foot as your on-water arm) are quite different >from what I've been taught both in ACA and BCU courses. But I guess that's >why they make chocllate, vanilla, and strawberry. > Bill Hansen I have always pushed with foot on the side of the stroke.( Disclosure: I never took any lessons when I started kayaking.) It seemed so natural that when first read some literature (ACA I believe) recently that said to do the opposite I thought it was a typo. Later I read the keeping your boat straighter explanation and it seemed to make a certain sense. When I tried it it felt awkward. But, to somebody with 25 years of doing the opposite how could it be otherwise, maybe it wouldn't be awkward for a beginner. Then I thought, "maybe thats why I can't keep up with Greg Barton". At least why he goes by me like I'm standing still. I haven't watched Olympic paddlers close enough since reading this to know what they really do other than having their knees way more vertical than I do. Strange I should pay so little attention to the feet when I had read many things regarding racing strokes both before and after the wing revolution. I guess I just took my way as a given. I looked at Andree's pictures of Olympic paddlers but couldn't tell which knee was up under the spraydeck. I use my legs alot when paddling, especially when paddling hard. The lack of solid footpedals with most rudder systems is very annoying and when I remove one foot from a solid pedal I go in circles. My question is WHAT DO OLYMPIC PADDLERS ACTUALLY DO? Sub-question: If they do it the same way I do it how did the ACA/BCUer's get it so wrong? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Every flatwater kayaker I have seen pushes with the onside leg. That is, they drive with the leg that is on the same side as the stroke. I have studied quite a few racers and videos of races and I have yet to see an exception. I believe the idea is to increase the rotation of the torso by rotating the hips with the legs. Your legs are generally even more powerful than the back. The knees are really high to provide a lot of travel for that side of the hip. When I use the technique I slide about 4". This works really well in a sprint kayak with an open flat seat that the paddler can slide on. It is less noticable in a snuggly fitted sea kayak, but it does still work. In my 17'x24" freighter of a sea kayak and a Werner Kuai paddle I can sprint over 7 knots and cruise at 5+ knots. Pushing with the other leg just feels wrong after all that practice. I can't see how pushing with the opposite leg can help tracking much. Assuming the force on your paddle blade is going to be the same as that on your foot, the moment of the paddle blade can be about 4 times bigger than that of your foot on the peg. I don't know if Olympic paddlers use the rudder for stroke induced yaw correction or just to track the course. Daniel At 08:44 PM 6/25/99 -0700, Matt Broze wrote: >-----Original Message----- >From: Bhansen97_at_aol.com <Bhansen97_at_aol.com> > The various >>posts on forward technique have been of interest to me - some of the >>approaches (push with the same foot as your on-water arm) are quite >different >>from what I've been taught both in ACA and BCU courses. But I guess that's >>why they make chocllate, vanilla, and strawberry. >> Bill Hansen > > I have always pushed with foot on the side of the stroke.( Disclosure: I >never took any lessons when I started kayaking.) It seemed so natural that >when first read some literature (ACA I believe) recently that said to do the >opposite I thought it was a typo. Later I read the keeping your boat >straighter explanation and it seemed to make a certain sense. When I tried >it it felt awkward. But, to somebody with 25 years of doing the opposite how >could it be otherwise, maybe it wouldn't be awkward for a beginner. Then I >thought, "maybe thats why I can't keep up with Greg Barton". At least why he >goes by me like I'm standing still. I haven't watched Olympic paddlers close >enough since reading this to know what they really do other than having >their knees way more vertical than I do. Strange I should pay so little >attention to the feet when I had read many things regarding racing strokes >both before and after the wing revolution. I guess I just took my way as a >given. I looked at Andree's pictures of Olympic paddlers but couldn't tell >which knee was up under the spraydeck. I use my legs alot when paddling, >especially when paddling hard. The lack of solid footpedals with most rudder >systems is very annoying and when I remove one foot from a solid pedal I go >in circles. My question is WHAT DO OLYMPIC PADDLERS ACTUALLY DO? >Sub-question: If they do it the same way I do it how did the ACA/BCUer's get >it so wrong? > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Daniel Key wrote: > Every flatwater kayaker I have seen pushes with the onside leg. That is, > they drive with the leg that is on the same side as the stroke. I have > studied quite a few racers and videos of races and I have yet to see an > exception. I believe the idea is to increase the rotation of the torso by > rotating the hips with the legs. Your legs are generally even more > powerful than the back. The knees are really high to provide a lot of > travel for that side of the hip. When I use the technique I slide about > 4". This works really well in a sprint kayak with an open flat seat that > the paddler can slide on. It is less noticable in a snuggly fitted sea > kayak, but it does still work. Does this mean that you have to "loosen up" the fitting of your sea kayak to use the leg power effectively? I don't get the leg push, to be honest. I've tried it and it seems that I'm so snugly wedged into my SK that I get nothing out of it. All I'm doing is pushing my backside tighter into the back of the seat. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sat, 26 Jun 1999, Michael Daly wrote: > (I believe this is quoting matt broze) > > Every flatwater kayaker I have seen pushes with the onside leg. That is, > > they drive with the leg that is on the same side as the stroke. > > Does this mean that you have to "loosen up" the fitting of your sea > kayak to use the leg power effectively? I don't get the leg push, to > be honest. I tried using the offside leg push this past weekend when I was out on my surf ski, it's a whole lot easier to figure out what your legs do when you can watch them. I get completely mixed up trying to push with the offside leg. I don't feel that I can decently "trigger" my stroke unless I can push on the side I'm paddling on. Pushing with my onside leg keeps my hips solidly in place as I rotate my torso. I find I don't have a whole lot of lower body motion during a stroke, my onside knee may drop an inch during the leg push and my hips only rotate a small amount. I do think I push down slightly on the opposite side of the boat during the stroke in order to keep the boat level - I've almost eliminated side to side tipping of the boat while paddling a straight line. kirk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Matt: Go to Fred Mechini's page at http://pluto.njcc.com/~fmec/ for some photos of Greg Barton in action (no skirt -- legs visible) and for lots mpeg videos of olympic level paddlers in training. The forward stroke used in sprint racing has you drive/straighten the leg on the side you are stroking on. Straightening this leg pushes one of your butt cheeks back, which in turn helps you rotate your torso. Torso rotation gives you much of the power for your stroke. Cheers, Richard Culpeper OCSRA Sprint Racing Instructor Matt Broze wrote: > > I have always pushed with foot on the side of the stroke.( Disclosure: I > never took any lessons when I started kayaking.) It seemed so natural that > when first read some literature (ACA I believe) recently that said to do the > opposite I thought it was a typo. Later I read the keeping your boat > straighter explanation and it seemed to make a certain sense. When I tried > it it felt awkward. But, to somebody with 25 years of doing the opposite how > could it be otherwise, maybe it wouldn't be awkward for a beginner. Then I > thought, "maybe thats why I can't keep up with Greg Barton". At least why he > goes by me like I'm standing still. I haven't watched Olympic paddlers close > enough since reading this to know what they really do other than having > their knees way more vertical than I do. Strange I should pay so little > attention to the feet when I had read many things regarding racing strokes > both before and after the wing revolution. I guess I just took my way as a > given. I looked at Andree's pictures of Olympic paddlers but couldn't tell > which knee was up under the spraydeck. I use my legs alot when paddling, > especially when paddling hard. The lack of solid footpedals with most rudder > systems is very annoying and when I remove one foot from a solid pedal I go > in circles. My question is WHAT DO OLYMPIC PADDLERS ACTUALLY DO? > Sub-question: If they do it the same way I do it how did the ACA/BCUer's get > it so wrong? > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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