It sounds as if both comments are true provided the kayak Erik Sprenne refers to was using a rudder (see snips)and you may have answered an earlier question, thanks. If I understand correctly paddling with a rudder and pushing with the foot opposite the stroke side would accentuate rotation. However, if paddling without a rudder then pushing with the foot opposite the stroke side would tend to compensate/null the torque. Should one change style when using a rudder? Is this what is referred to as yaw correction? PeterO Erik Sprenne wrote >3. If the foot opposite the stroke side is used to push forward, a >twisting motion is imparted to the boat, because the increased >separation of the 'opposite' forces introduces a stronger lever arm >action, which causes the boat to turn. This turning moment/force is >not as noticeable in a sea kayak as it is in a whitewater boat. Matt Broze wrote >It seems to me that by having your foot pressure on the opposite side of the >boat this might be reducing the turning moment caused by the paddle stroke. >This reduction in turning moment appears to be the justification for doing >the opposite foot push I have heard. Peter Osman wrote >When using a rudder I find that I'm alternately pushing the right and left pedals in >response to the paddling stroke, This doesn't seem right! But the kayak >seems to track well. I've often wondered how much speed I'm losing and how >to improve the situation? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Michael Daly wrote: > > > Daniel Key wrote: > > > Every flatwater kayaker I have seen pushes with the onside leg. That is, > > they drive with the leg that is on the same side as the stroke. I have > > studied quite a few racers and videos of races and I have yet to see an > > exception. I believe the idea is to increase the rotation of the torso by > > rotating the hips with the legs. Your legs are generally even more > > powerful than the back. The knees are really high to provide a lot of > > travel for that side of the hip. When I use the technique I slide about > > 4". This works really well in a sprint kayak with an open flat seat that > > the paddler can slide on. It is less noticable in a snuggly fitted sea > > kayak, but it does still work. > > Does this mean that you have to "loosen up" the fitting of your sea > kayak to use the leg power effectively? I don't get the leg push, to > be honest. I've tried it and it seems that I'm so snugly wedged into > my SK that I get nothing out of it. All I'm doing is pushing my backside > tighter into the back of the seat. > I'm not that familiar with sprint boating, so perhaps the outfitting in those boats allows the paddler to move fore and aft while paddling, but I'd think that having your butt sliding fore and aft would reduce the efficiency of the stroke. Being snug in your boat ('wearing' your boat) allows for the most efficient energy transfer, as no energy is lost in the fore and aft movement of a fair amount of weight (your body). Some things to consider in the forward stroke: 1. Be sure to plant the blade completely in the water. To efficiently transfer your stroke energy into forward motion, you want to minimize the slippage of the paddle through the water when applying force. There will always be a little slippage, but it is minimized with the blade being completely immersed. 2. To more efficiently transfer the energy to the boat, it's best to 'push' with the foot on the side of the stroke. The foot push helps translate the backward pull of the stroke into forward motion of the boat. While the pull of the stroke and the push of the foot appear to be opposite forces, they are acting in tandem to propel the boat forward. If the paddler fits snugly in the boat, maximum energy is transferred from the stroke into forward motion (at least for whitewater boats and sea kayaks). 3. If the foot opposite the stroke side is used to push forward, a twisting motion is imparted to the boat, because the increased separation of the 'opposite' forces introduces a stronger lever arm action, which causes the boat to turn. This turning moment/force is not as noticeable in a sea kayak as it is in a whitewater boat. 4. Daniel, Richard, and Matt are correct in stating that pushing forward with the onside (same side as stroke) foot makes it easier to employ torso rotation in the stroke. If paddling on the right side, pushing with the right foot 'immobilizes' the right side of the body, and lets the left side of the body (including a slight movement of the left hip) rotate forward in the torso rotation. If torso rotation is used (pushing forward - or 'punching out' - with the left arm while pulling with the right arm), more muscles are used in the forward stroke. reduces the load on any single muscle or small group of muscles, thereby enabling one to paddle longer and stronger before becoming fatigued. Most beginners paddle with only their arms and tire quickly. Involving the whole upper body spreads the work load over more muscles. Adding the legs into the equation further spreads the load to _most_ of the large muscles in the body, and allows for much more comfortable all-day paddling. (I also don't paddle a boat with a rudder, and the one time I tried it, it felt funny to me becuase of the lack of firm foot support.) This is what I teach as an ACA Whitewater Kayak Instructor Trainer. I, too, have run across ACA instructors that teach pushing with the foot opposite the stroke side. The ACA Canoeing and Kayaking Instruction Manual doesn't even address the use of the feet in the forward stroke, so this is one of the gray areas in the ACA curriculum. Remember that ACA Instructors (and Trainers!) don't always have ALL the answers, and don't always do everything the best way. The certification program is designed to help ensure that _minimum_ standards are met, but there is still lots of room for variation - and innovation - from one instructor to another. Racers and instructors can discuss the fine points of paddling for hours on end, because their goals are to become faster paddlers and better teachers. Each paddler has to determine what works best for her/him and the type of paddling that (s)he prefers. If this sometimes goes contrary to "established" beliefs, so be it. Play Hard, Erik Sprenne *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Erik Sprenne wrote: > > Michael Daly wrote: > > > > > Daniel Key wrote: > > > > > Every flatwater kayaker I have seen pushes with the onside leg. That is, > > > they drive with the leg that is on the same side as the stroke. I have > > > studied quite a few racers and videos of races and I have yet to see an > > > exception. I believe the idea is to increase the rotation of the torso by > > > rotating the hips with the legs. Your legs are generally even more > > > powerful than the back. The knees are really high to provide a lot of > > > travel for that side of the hip. When I use the technique I slide about > > > 4". This works really well in a sprint kayak with an open flat seat that > > > the paddler can slide on. It is less noticable in a snuggly fitted sea > > > kayak, but it does still work. > > > > > Does this mean that you have to "loosen up" the fitting of your sea > > kayak to use the leg power effectively? I don't get the leg push, to > > be honest. I've tried it and it seems that I'm so snugly wedged into > > my SK that I get nothing out of it. All I'm doing is pushing my backside > > tighter into the back of the seat. > > > > Yes, it does. That's why many sea kayakers prefer not to use their legs. > > Cheers, > Richard Culpeper > > I'm not that familiar with sprint boating, so perhaps the outfitting > in those boats allows the paddler to move fore and aft while > paddling, but I'd think that having your butt sliding fore and aft > would reduce the efficiency of the stroke. Being snug in your > boat ('wearing' your boat) allows for the most efficient energy > transfer, as no energy is lost in the fore and aft movement of a > fair amount of weight (your body). In the extreme - rowing sculls with sliding seats - the leg actually adds significant amounts of power to the stroke. Ok, I have two different opinions here, it seems. Warning - I'm an engineer (Aside: I remember reading a local magazine years back that had an interview with a sailboard instructor when that was a big craze. They asked him who made the best and worst students. He said doctors made the best; they do exactly what you tell them every time. Engineers are the worst; first they want to know why you do it that way, then they try to experiment and find a better way to do it. end aside) > 2. To more efficiently transfer the energy to the boat, it's best > to 'push' with the foot on the side of the stroke. The foot push > helps translate the backward pull of the stroke into forward motion > of the boat. While the pull of the stroke and the push of the foot > appear to be opposite forces, they are acting in tandem to propel > the boat forward. If the paddler fits snugly in the boat, maximum > energy is transferred from the stroke into forward motion (at least > for whitewater boats and sea kayaks). If I'm snugly fit into the boat, the foot force does _not_ transmit into the boat. It only pushes me harder into the seat. I cannot apply an external force to the boat with my foot. I have to be able to move independently of the boat to do this. This means, as Richard says, that I have to loosen up my fitting and allow my backside to slide. Otherwise I'm pulling myself up by my bootstraps. > > 3. If the foot opposite the stroke side is used to push forward, a > twisting motion is imparted to the boat, because the increased > separation of the 'opposite' forces introduces a stronger lever arm > action, which causes the boat to turn. This turning moment/force is > not as noticeable in a sea kayak as it is in a whitewater boat. Again, this cannot happen. It doesn't matter what side I push on, since I'm locked into the boat. I'm not applying an external force. If I slide in the seat, I move "with the paddle" and the point of contact is the foot. Then the same side/opposite side makes a difference. > 4. Daniel, Richard, and Matt are correct in stating that pushing > forward with the onside (same side as stroke) foot makes it easier > to employ torso rotation in the stroke. If paddling on the right side, > pushing with the right foot 'immobilizes' the right side of the body, > and lets the left side of the body (including a slight movement of the > left hip) rotate forward in the torso rotation. If torso rotation is used > (pushing forward - or 'punching out' - with the left arm while pulling > with the right arm), more muscles are used in the forward stroke. > reduces the load on any single muscle or small group of muscles, > thereby enabling one to paddle longer and stronger before > becoming fatigued. I'm only doing this if I would otherwise slide around. If I'm secured in, the force will be transmitted by my foot or knee/thigh or hips etc. I have tried this repeatedly and I get full power out of torso rotation regardless of whether I use my feet or not. That's why I asked for clarification. In my kayak, tight as it is, I don't benefit from foot pressure. > This is what I teach as an ACA Whitewater Kayak Instructor Trainer. > I, too, have run across ACA instructors that teach pushing with the > foot opposite the stroke side. The ACA Canoeing and Kayaking > Instruction Manual doesn't even address the use of the feet in the > forward stroke, so this is one of the gray areas in the ACA curriculum. > Remember that ACA Instructors (and Trainers!) don't always have > ALL the answers, and don't always do everything the best way. In the umpteen years of sports I've been involved in, I've seen repeated examples of where coaching and instruction standards follow incorrect notions and advise athletes to break various laws of physics. This, IMHO, is another example. Watch the video clips on the website that someone else posted. The paddlers are clearly moving their hips while pumping their knees. They are not tightly connected to the kayaks, and as such, can impart an _external_ force to the pedals. If you're tight in the boat, the only external force is applied, basically through the hands from the paddle. I've worked on this for a long time, having been taught it by several instructors, BCU, AECSKO, whatever (the most recent was Mark Scriver, better known as an OC1 WW rodeo champ). I've gone out on calm water and paddled hard with high and low strokes, wide and narrow grip, euro and wing paddle and in all cases, I've yet to discover a difference in using either same or opposite side or using no foot pressure at all. And of course, it flies in the face of common sense, since I'm too tightly locked into the boat to allow it to work. The only time I do use foot pressure is in a hard-leaned, sweep turn - only because it concentrates my mind on leaning and turning hard. I started doing this in WW to get my tilt right in eddy entry/exit. My instructor told me I shouldn't do this! :-) Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: Michael Daly <michaeldaly_at_home.com> >Does this mean that you have to "loosen up" the fitting of your sea >kayak to use the leg power effectively? I don't get the leg push, to >be honest. I've tried it and it seems that I'm so snugly wedged into >my SK that I get nothing out of it. All I'm doing is pushing my backside >tighter into the back of the seat. I think even if you can't rotate your hips it still helps a lot because you block that side of your body from making an (equal and) opposite reaction to your stroke. Try taking one foot off a fixed pedal and leave one on the pedal and then paddle hard. If you don't notice much difference try it with your eyes closed so you will be less likely to be making unconcious corrections. Matt Broze http://marinerkayaks.com >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: Erik Sprenne <sprenne_at_netnitco.net> >I'm not that familiar with sprint boating, so perhaps the outfitting >in those boats allows the paddler to move fore and aft while >paddling, but I'd think that having your butt sliding fore and aft >would reduce the efficiency of the stroke. Being snug in your >boat ('wearing' your boat) allows for the most efficient energy >transfer, as no energy is lost in the fore and aft movement of a >fair amount of weight (your body). The Olympic seat is more like just a butt platform attached to the bottom of the kayak. There is no side or back that would interfere with the butt rotating on it so you get not only torso rotation but even your butt rotates as you pivot it with your legs. It is more powerful for a sprint than the (I thought generally excellent) description of paddling you provided below. > >Some things to consider in the forward stroke: >1. Be sure to plant the blade completely in the water. To >efficiently transfer your stroke energy into forward motion, >you want to minimize the slippage of the paddle through the >water when applying force. There will always be a little >slippage, but it is minimized with the blade being completely >immersed. >2. To more efficiently transfer the energy to the boat, it's best >to 'push' with the foot on the side of the stroke. The foot push >helps translate the backward pull of the stroke into forward motion >of the boat. While the pull of the stroke and the push of the foot >appear to be opposite forces, they are acting in tandem to propel >the boat forward. If the paddler fits snugly in the boat, maximum >energy is transferred from the stroke into forward motion (at least >for whitewater boats and sea kayaks). >3. If the foot opposite the stroke side is used to push forward, a >twisting motion is imparted to the boat, because the increased >separation of the 'opposite' forces introduces a stronger lever arm >action, which causes the boat to turn. This turning moment/force is >not as noticeable in a sea kayak as it is in a whitewater boat. It seems to me that by having your foot pressure on the opposite side of the boat this might be reducing the turning moment caused by the paddle stroke. This reduction in turning moment appears to be the justification for doing the opposite foot push I have heard. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com >4. Daniel, Richard, and Matt are correct in stating that pushing >forward with the onside (same side as stroke) foot makes it easier >to employ torso rotation in the stroke. If paddling on the right side, >pushing with the right foot 'immobilizes' the right side of the body, >and lets the left side of the body (including a slight movement of the >left hip) rotate forward in the torso rotation. If torso rotation is used >(pushing forward - or 'punching out' - with the left arm while pulling >with the right arm), more muscles are used in the forward stroke. > reduces the load on any single muscle or small group of muscles, >thereby enabling one to paddle longer and stronger before >becoming fatigued. >Most beginners paddle with only their arms and tire quickly. >Involving the whole upper body spreads the work load over >more muscles. Adding the legs into the equation further spreads >the load to _most_ of the large muscles in the body, and allows >for much more comfortable all-day paddling. (I also don't paddle >a boat with a rudder, and the one time I tried it, it felt funny to me >becuase of the lack of firm foot support.) > >This is what I teach as an ACA Whitewater Kayak Instructor Trainer. >I, too, have run across ACA instructors that teach pushing with the >foot opposite the stroke side. The ACA Canoeing and Kayaking >Instruction Manual doesn't even address the use of the feet in the >forward stroke, so this is one of the gray areas in the ACA curriculum. >Remember that ACA Instructors (and Trainers!) don't always have >ALL the answers, and don't always do everything the best way. >The certification program is designed to help ensure that _minimum_ >standards are met, but there is still lots of room for variation - and >innovation - from one instructor to another. Racers and instructors >can discuss the fine points of paddling for hours on end, because >their goals are to become faster paddlers and better teachers. >Each paddler has to determine what works best for her/him and the >type of paddling that (s)he prefers. If this sometimes goes contrary >to "established" beliefs, so be it. > >Play Hard, >Erik Sprenne > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
m. daly wrote "'m only doing this if I would otherwise slide around. If I'm secured in, the force will be transmitted by my foot or knee/thigh or hips etc. I have tried this repeatedly and I get full power out of torso rotation regardless of whether I use my feet or not. That's why I asked for clarification. In my kayak, tight as it is, I don't benefit from foot pressure." I'm sufficiently snug in my kayak but not tight fitting and I find foot pressure very helpful. I find it helps torso use and thought i was doing thuis just fine. On the weekend I spent some time with a kayaking coach who is also a physio (I have shoulder tendonitis). She pointed out that I was not using my lower lower torso (like right at the base of the stomach and the obliques, around the hips etc), especially the lower part of my lats, thus missing out on power. I thought I was using my torso but I was wrong!! As someone else alluded to: As she put it by pushing on your stroke side leg, slightly lifting and rotating your offside hip facilitates better rotation and allows you to more easily bring your lower lower torso into play - i hope I've got her right. my fitting in my boat allows this although not to the extent of a flatwater racing kayak of course. I am however perfectly snug enough for rolls, bracing, power transmission etc nick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I agree with this but Daniel Key said it? Matt Broze -----Original Message----- From: Kirk Olsen <kolsen_at_imagelan.com> To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net>; Michael Daly <michaeldaly_at_home.com> Date: Monday, June 28, 1999 8:19 AM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Leg Power (was an apology to Jim et. al. - ) >On Sat, 26 Jun 1999, Michael Daly wrote: > >> (I believe this is quoting matt broze) >> > Every flatwater kayaker I have seen pushes with the onside leg. That is, >> > they drive with the leg that is on the same side as the stroke. >> >> Does this mean that you have to "loosen up" the fitting of your sea >> kayak to use the leg power effectively? I don't get the leg push, to >> be honest. > >I tried using the offside leg push this past weekend when I was out on my >surf ski, it's a whole lot easier to figure out what your legs do when >you can watch them. > >I get completely mixed up trying to push with the offside leg. >I don't feel that I can decently "trigger" my stroke unless I can push >on the side I'm paddling on. Pushing with my onside leg keeps my hips >solidly in place as I rotate my torso. > >I find I don't have a whole lot of lower body motion during a stroke, my >onside knee may drop an inch during the leg push and my hips only rotate >a small amount. I do think I push down slightly on the opposite side of the >boat during the stroke in order to keep the boat level - I've almost >eliminated side to side tipping of the boat while paddling a straight line. > >kirk >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Yes, that was me and I have a couple things to add. No matter how tight your cockpit fitting is, you can always gain efficiency by pushing with the onside leg. You body, clothing and pads around the seat are all compressible and flexible to some degree. If you rely on the friction and compression from these alone, you will spend a signifigant amount of energy compressing the neoprene of your wetsuit or what have you with every stroke. The connection of your torso to the boat through your legs is as stiff as the bones in your leg. As far as loosening the fitting in your sea kayak, I wouldn't recommend it. You can gain a significant amount just by using the legs at all. That extra 5% is not worth compromising your roll. Daniel At 07:41 PM 6/29/99 -0700, Matt Broze wrote: >I agree with this but Daniel Key said it? >Matt Broze >-----Original Message----- >From: Kirk Olsen <kolsen_at_imagelan.com> >To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net>; Michael >Daly <michaeldaly_at_home.com> >Date: Monday, June 28, 1999 8:19 AM >Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Leg Power (was an apology to Jim et. al. - ) > > >>On Sat, 26 Jun 1999, Michael Daly wrote: >> >>> (I believe this is quoting matt broze) >>> > Every flatwater kayaker I have seen pushes with the onside leg. That >is, >>> > they drive with the leg that is on the same side as the stroke. >>> >>> Does this mean that you have to "loosen up" the fitting of your sea >>> kayak to use the leg power effectively? I don't get the leg push, to >>> be honest. >> >>I tried using the offside leg push this past weekend when I was out on my >>surf ski, it's a whole lot easier to figure out what your legs do when >>you can watch them. >> >>I get completely mixed up trying to push with the offside leg. >>I don't feel that I can decently "trigger" my stroke unless I can push >>on the side I'm paddling on. Pushing with my onside leg keeps my hips >>solidly in place as I rotate my torso. >> >>I find I don't have a whole lot of lower body motion during a stroke, my >>onside knee may drop an inch during the leg push and my hips only rotate >>a small amount. I do think I push down slightly on the opposite side of >the >>boat during the stroke in order to keep the boat level - I've almost >>eliminated side to side tipping of the boat while paddling a straight line. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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