Steve I agree that it is terribly sad. And wading across upstream of a Class IV is just wrong. But the debate isn't the rightness or wrongness of signs in wild areas or wading in the wrong place. It's about a dead girl. If it was your child, I suspect you would do anything and everything possible to retrieve their body. I know I would. I put people ahead of things every time. Larry Mills Purchase, NY > -----Original Message----- > From: Steve Cramer [SMTP:cramer_at_coe.uga.edu] > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 10:12 A.M. > To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Teenager drowns on Chatooga, retrieval > efforts dangerous > > Elaine Harmon wrote: > > > > Hi- been reading about this in rec.boats.paddle. That kid was NOT A > BOATER but a hiker who was wading and fell in. > > > > We should all email Strom Thurmond and bitch (or something). Why not > just > > put signs up whereever hiking paths come up to rivers? > > Mainly because this is a National Wild and Scenic River. You don't put > structures in W&SR corridors. Also, wading across a river upstream of a > Class IV rapid is perhaps not the safest approach to crossing a river. > > A very sad situation. > > Steve > > Test Scoring and Reporting Services > University of Georgia > Athens, GA 30602-5593 > ************************************************************************** > * > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > ************************************************************************** > * *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mills, Larry wrote: > > Steve > > I agree that it is terribly sad. > > And wading across upstream of a Class IV is just wrong. > > But the debate isn't the rightness or wrongness of signs > in wild areas or wading in the wrong place. It's about > a dead girl. > > If it was your child, I suspect you would do anything > and everything possible to retrieve their body. I know I > would. I put people ahead of things every time. > Actually, I'm not sure I would. If it were me, I can't think of a better place to spend eternity than in a Wild and Scenic River. Far better than a 3x6x6 hole in a cemetary. If it were my daughter, I would certainly allow them to remain there before I asked others to risk their lives to extract them. And I'm confident that my son, who knows the Chatooga intimately, would be happy to have it serve as his final resting place. Actually, I've already instructed my wife to have me cremated (after I'm dead, that is) and sprinkled into Bull Sluice, a Class V rapid about 2 miles upriver from where the girl is. [warning: the next paragraph may seem tasteless] The effort has, at this point, an element of futility. It's highly unlikely that they will recover the girl whole, or even the whole girl. It's not as if her parents will be able to hug her one last time. She's been under water for weeks. BTW, my comment about wading above rapids was not meant to diss the girl and her companion, but to illustrate that people in the wilds will do inapproriate things, and that signs cannot anticipate them all. I have to disagree with Larry about the point of the debate, though. Around here, at least, it is about making permanent changes to a national treasure. Those of us who have spent appreciable amounts of time on the Chatooga don't consider it a thing. The river has a life of its own, and for centuries has lived that life independent of man. If the parents want the body recovered and it can be, fine, but let's leave the river alone. -- Steve Cramer Test Scoring and Reporting Services University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-5593 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, 15 Jul 1999, Steve Cramer wrote: > I have to disagree with Larry about the point of the debate, though. > Around here, at least, it is about making permanent changes to a > national treasure. Those of us who have spent appreciable amounts of > time on the Chatooga don't consider it a thing. The river has a life of > its own, and for centuries has lived that life independent of man. If > the parents want the body recovered and it can be, fine, but let's leave > the river alone. Agree completely. By the way, the caving community feel much the same about body recovery. Most all of us would rather be left in the cave, and certainly if any danger were involved in the recovery. And this is what often happens. e Elaine Harmon - eilidh_at_dc.seflin.org - eharmon_at_cs.miami.edu *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Elaine Harmon wrote: > > On Thu, 15 Jul 1999, Steve Cramer wrote: > > I have to disagree with Larry about the point of the debate, though. > > Around here, at least, it is about making permanent changes to a > > national treasure. Those of us who have spent appreciable amounts of > > time on the Chatooga don't consider it a thing. The river has a life of > > its own, and for centuries has lived that life independent of man. If > > the parents want the body recovered and it can be, fine, but let's leave > > the river alone. > > Agree completely. By the way, the caving community feel much the same > about body recovery. Most all of us would rather be left in the cave, and > certainly if any danger were involved in the recovery. And this is what > often happens. e I have to agree also. Having been envolved for several years, with search and rescue in Alaska, I can say that altho difficult, there is a time to back off when you are dealing with a body, as apposed to a rescue. Tragic as it is, putting more lives at risk or destroying a river, just won't undue what has happened. I know what it's like to leave someone you care deeply about, in an inacessable place too. I had the unpleasant task of telling the wife of a very good friend, that he and three others were in a glacier and trying to retreave the bodies was going to put several people at risk, and likely just add more bodies to the mountain. She understood. They do have a perfect resting place tho, over looking the copper river valley and the wrangells. Bottom line: wildness has risks, and beauty. Lets not change either. James, whose ashes will be hopefully drifting down a river in AK someday *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>From: Steve Cramer <cramer_at_coe.uga.edu> snip >I've already instructed my wife to have me cremated (after I'm >dead, that is) and sprinkled into Bull Sluice, a Class V rapid about 2 >miles upriver from where the girl is. > >[warning: the next paragraph may seem tasteless] >The effort has, at this point, an element of futility. It's highly >unlikely that they will recover the girl whole, or even the whole girl. >It's not as if her parents will be able to hug her one last time. She's >been under water for weeks. > >BTW, my comment about wading above rapids was not meant to diss the girl >and her companion, but to illustrate that people in the wilds will do >inapproriate things, and that signs cannot anticipate them all. > >I have to disagree with Larry about the point of the debate, though. >Around here, at least, it is about making permanent changes to a >national treasure. Those of us who have spent appreciable amounts of >time on the Chatooga don't consider it a thing. The river has a life of >its own, and for centuries has lived that life independent of man. If >the parents want the body recovered and it can be, fine, but let's leave >the river alone. Hi Steve, I share your desire to have a "watery grave" (again -after I'm dead). In fact, if the authorites would permit it, I'd have a Viking fireship cremationr, with Coleman fuel on my sea kayak. However, I can also sympathize with the family's desire to recover the body as a needed part of "closure" (to use that trendy word). I've been through several deaths in my family, and missed the funeral of one because I had been in the backcountry and unreachable at the time of the death. The air of unreality and disbelief that any survivor feels with any death was extended in this case because there had been no ceromony, no viewing of a body, etc. I'm not suggesting the river should be diverted, or other lives put at risk to recover the body; I'm just saying I understand the family's yearning to do so. Philip T. N49°16' W123°08' *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>Larry Mills said: >If it was your child, I suspect you would do anything >and everything possible to retrieve their body. I know I >would. I put people ahead of things every time. > Larry, Once dead, a person becomes a thing. By jeopardizing other lives and destroying wild country to retrieve a body, you are putting your feelings ahead of things. Deb *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The drowning thread is timely as it comes after a trying (and tragic) weekend here in Pamlico County, North Carolina. Two children ages 3 and 9 stepped off a sandbar in front of their family on the Neuse River and were swept under by the current. The "rescue" effort soon turned into a recovery effort. A massive search was mounted to find the bodies. It included fire, rescue, coast guard, CG auxiliary, just about every acronym in law enforcement you can think of and the US Marine rescue helicopter from Cherry Point MCAS. The river is almost three nautical miles wide at the last seen location. As a volunteer involved in the effort I marveled at the resources that were used to try to locate and recover the bodies. The commonly overheard volunteer worker comment was "the family needs closure". The interesting thing was nobody questioned that the safety of the rescue workers ALWAYS came first. When a thunder storm threatened, the entire operation was suspended until it passed an hour later. ALL rescue workers on or near the water wore PFD's and nobody questioned the orders to wear them, whether they were on a boat or combing the shoreline. The family was incredibly supportive and appreciative of the effort. They repeatedly stated that while they desperately wanted their children recovered, they understood it may not be possible. People realize around here that these bodies of water don't always "give up their dead". It is a sad but very real fact. Second to the safety issue is the fact that 95% of the rescue workers are volunteers. The recovery effort lasted from Saturday afternoon until Monday morning. That means that many workers were not at paying jobs. I think this is an often overlooked issue in recovery efforts that are dependent on volunteers. The grieving family overlooks the true cost of the effort that cannot be measured in "government funded" agency involvement. It may sound unnecessarily harsh but the girl in the Chatooga is dead. If it were an easy recovery that does not risk lives and carry an exceptional cost then do it. O-T-O-H it is tough to justify the risk of additional lives as well as expense for a difficult recovery. In our case the bodies were recovered. Side scan sonar located them only 20 yards from where they were last seen just before dark on Saturday July 10th. Divers recovered the 9 year old at that time. The smaller child's body eluded all efforts and was not sighted and recovered until Monday the 12th. It was found many miles away on the opposite side of the river. The incident has been a sobering experience for everyone in the area. Boaters seem to have taken it to heart even though this was not a "boating accident". I suspect the use of PFD's will become more evident. The waters around here usually look tranquil. This has been a reminder that water can always be dangerous. Now I'll get off my soap box. Ed Bean *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Larry, I used a poor choice of words. What I meant to say was that you are putting your feelings above those things, meaning the searchers and the river. I don't think that assuaging our grief by putting others at risk is right. I would consider the parent who would suspend the search to be morally equivalent to the parent who would donate his child's organs to another child. Those parents are willing to give up their need for closure so that others may benefit. As for me, let my ashes float through the Canyonlands of Utah, Deb >Deb >I realize I am putting my feelings ahead of things. That >would be my intent. I would do whatever I could to get her >back. And that would include damming the river, diverting the >flow, blowing up the rocks, ... It wouldn't matter to me. >>Larry >> Larry, >> Once dead, a person becomes a thing. By jeopardizing other lives and >> destroying wild country to retrieve a body, you are putting your feelings >> ahead of things. >> Deb *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I disagree. Often, things such as wilderness are more important than people. Although the death of the girl is unfortunate, she is just one person do did an extremely stupid act. I don't think the tradeoff of harming unique wilderness is worth the closure. Bottom line, and this will seem harsh, is that if you go into the wilderness and do dumb things, you should be prepared to pay the consequences without expecting other people to endanger their lives to rescue you. I hav never figured out why people risk their lives to rescue people who dosuch dumb things that they do not deserve to be rescued. "Mills, Larry" wrote: > Steve > > I agree that it is terribly sad. > > And wading across upstream of a Class IV is just wrong. > > But the debate isn't the rightness or wrongness of signs > in wild areas or wading in the wrong place. It's about > a dead girl. > > If it was your child, I suspect you would do anything > and everything possible to retrieve their body. I know I > would. I put people ahead of things every time. > > Larry Mills > Purchase, NY > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Steve Cramer [SMTP:cramer_at_coe.uga.edu] > > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 10:12 A.M. > > To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Teenager drowns on Chatooga, retrieval > > efforts dangerous > > > > Elaine Harmon wrote: > > > > > > Hi- been reading about this in rec.boats.paddle. That kid was NOT A > > BOATER but a hiker who was wading and fell in. > > > > > > We should all email Strom Thurmond and bitch (or something). Why not > > just > > > put signs up whereever hiking paths come up to rivers? > > > > Mainly because this is a National Wild and Scenic River. You don't put > > structures in W&SR corridors. Also, wading across a river upstream of a > > Class IV rapid is perhaps not the safest approach to crossing a river. > > > > A very sad situation. > > > > Steve > > > > Test Scoring and Reporting Services > > University of Georgia > > Athens, GA 30602-5593 > > ************************************************************************** > > * > > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > > ************************************************************************** > > * > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Chris & Ellen Kohut wrote: The priority here should be reclaiming the girl's body for burial, ......... > I disagree. When my mother died (in hospital, not by drowning) it became very obvious to me that the body lying in the bed was no longer my mother, just an empty shell. My mother was gone. Where? I don't know, people have been debating that for ever. This girl is gone, the body in the river (or what is left of it by now) is not that girl. From the girl's perspective, what is the difference whether the empty shell decomposes at the bottom of the river or in an expensive cemetery plot. This whole campaign of the father to retrieve the body is a way to avoid the reality that the body in the river is no longer his daughter. I have three children, and if it was my child I would be devastated yes, but definitely unwilling to risk damaging the fragile ecology of the area or putting other lives at risk. Irene McGarvie: *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi guys- While I am with the people who consider the no longer inhabited body to be "disposable", I can still appreciate that not all think the same. And I'm sure there are many others that would have strong feelings about it even though admitting that such feelings are not rational. As someone said (William James?), "The intellect is a speck on the sea of emotion." Intuition and emotion are after all paths to a different, and often superior, way of apprehending reality (whatever that may be). Body recovery is for the survivors, not the victim, and if it is important to them, then it should be important to all of us as fellow human beings, because of their suffering. Important, but not the sole determining factor. I wonder how much of all this furor has been whipped up for political purposes? Elaine Harmon - eilidh_at_dc.seflin.org - eharmon_at_cs.miami.edu *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Elaine Harmon wrote: > > I wonder how much of all this furor has been whipped up for political > purposes? > I can't imagine that Senator Thurmond would ever think of such a thing. -- Steve Cramer Test Scoring and Reporting Services University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-5593 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: Donald Schoengold <donaldsc_at_vegas.infi.net> To: Mills, Larry <Larry.Mills_at_exchange.purchase.edu>; <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 4:43 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Teenager drowns on Chatooga, retrieval effortsd angerous > Bottom line ..... I have never figured out why people risk their lives to rescue people who do such dumb things that they do not deserve to be rescued. This has been one of the most interesting threads since John Winters (I think) discussed a group decision to attempt a dangerous transit in which each paddler was on his or her own, and that rescues should not be expected if one member crashed. To address Donald Schoengold's point: I used to be a combat SAR pilot, and I've hung my crew's life and mine on the line a couple or three times in attempts to get really stupid people out of harm's way. Why? 'Cause. 'Cause that's what people in that business do. We don't check the motivation of the person in trouble before we go in to get them. Same thing applies in civilian situations. Pretty simple, really. I guess everybody deserves to be rescued. (For background reading, Sebastian Junger's book, "A Perfect Storm" will provide some interesting perspectives on SAR.) To the issue: I, too, have run various parts of the Chatooga at various times, and almost did not make it out of one because of a stupid thing I did. Almost took my son --- who was a guide there --- with me. It wasn't a tactical "stupid" --- it was strategic. It was the decision to attempt one run where I didn't belong. The Chatooga River is a beautiful and wondrous world asset. As much as my son was part of that river, I'm not sure how I would have felt if he had not flushed out and had become literally part of the river. It's easier to have dispassionate and ecologically sound viewpoints about the situation when it's not your kid on the bottom, I guess. Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I quite agree with Mr. Mills assessment of the tragedy. The priority here should be reclaiming the girl's body for burial, and indeed that where the L.A. Times article seems to indicate the emphasis has been, but it is indeed difficult to envision a river hole of this nature and magnitude that would thwart so many attempts of professionals to retrieve the body. I cannot imagine anyone daring to dive into waters that are of sufficient force to rip off a diver's mask, and certainly such brave souls should not be put at risk, potentially compounding this unbelievable misfortune with other deaths. My experience with river boating is nil, and now my desire to ever go is also at an all time ebb. I thought about her all day today, recirculating in that vortex, withheld from her loved ones, and they denied closure on so signal a tragedy. I've pulled a body out of the surf as well, and saved more than a few in my kayaking and longboarding along shore, and none of that has worked on me like this has. Of particular interest to me here is the battle shaping up between the father of the girl and what appears to be the self-anointed custodians of the Chatooga, which is grand to be sure but is, after all, but rocks, water, and gradient........and dare I say it.......not Deity. Still, we who venture out into wilderness situations are shocked to have to continually learn the lesson that larger cranium capacity and opposable thumbs may not be the last word after all. Perhaps this is what *wilderness* means: Disney didn't draw it. Mills, Larry wrote: > Steve > > I agree that it is terribly sad. > > And wading across upstream of a Class IV is just wrong. > > But the debate isn't the rightness or wrongness of signs > in wild areas or wading in the wrong place. It's about > a dead girl. > > If it was your child, I suspect you would do anything > and everything possible to retrieve their body. I know I > would. I put people ahead of things every time. > > Larry Mills > Purchase, NY > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Steve Cramer [SMTP:cramer_at_coe.uga.edu] > > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 10:12 A.M. > > To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Teenager drowns on Chatooga, retrieval > > efforts dangerous > > > > Elaine Harmon wrote: > > > > > > Hi- been reading about this in rec.boats.paddle. That kid was NOT A > > BOATER but a hiker who was wading and fell in. > > > > > > We should all email Strom Thurmond and bitch (or something). Why not > > just > > > put signs up whereever hiking paths come up to rivers? > > > > Mainly because this is a National Wild and Scenic River. You don't put > > structures in W&SR corridors. Also, wading across a river upstream of a > > Class IV rapid is perhaps not the safest approach to crossing a river. > > > > A very sad situation. > > > > Steve > > > > Test Scoring and Reporting Services > > University of Georgia > > Athens, GA 30602-5593 > > ************************************************************************** > > * > > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > > ************************************************************************** > > * > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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