On Thu, 15 Jul 1999, Elaine Harmon wrote: > Hi- been reading about this in rec.boats.paddle (incidentally, > rec.boats.paddle.touring was just voted in and will start up in a week or > so). That kid was NOT A BOATER but a hiker who was wading and fell in. > > We should all email Strom Thurmond and bitch (or something). Why not just > put signs up whereever hiking paths come up to rivers? e First, relax! Don't email. Don't "bitch". If you want to write, be polite, positive, and express your concern for the victim and grieving family. Be diplomatic and courteous! Second, the value of the Chatooga comes in great part because it *is* a Wild and Scenic river. That designation has benefits: mainly that it's a much more "natural" setting, free from the visual pollution of human development. It's a beautiful place, and I feel fortunate to have paddled parts of the river. And more fortunate that I caught the rescue line the one time that I swam a rapid ;-). This value comes with cost: there are no warning signs, and access is difficult. These are the terms under which everyone approaches the river. Wild and Scenic rivers are the most beautiful places to paddle, and the worst to have accidents on. These things go hand in hand, and simply must be accepted. If you want to have the option of a no-holds-barred recovery effort for yourself or your loved ones, stay away from restricted wilderness areas. Period. Third, it seems to me that the victim's family and rescuers might have been trying too hard to retrieve a lifeless body, and too little to protect the value of the wilderness area that the woman probably loved as much as many of us who have paddled there. Fourth, the notion of what the victim wanted gives rise to the question of "advanced care directives", to borrow a phrase. Don't g out into the wild, or let your children go into the wild, without honestly addressing the risks involved and talking to your loved ones. There's no need to dwell on the details of worst-case scenarios, but I think there's real value in confronting the issues. Many here have said they would not object to being left in such a place, especially if the recovery effort would endanger the recovery crew and/or the environment. How many of us feel the same but have not told our loved ones? Do our loved ones know that we would not consider it disrespectful to abandon a dangerous rescue? That out of respect for others, the future, and this marvelous creation, we would prefer that recovery efforts "leave no trace"? Etc. -Peter *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, 15 Jul 1999, Peter W wrote: [snip] > Fourth, the notion of what the victim wanted gives rise to the question of > "advanced care directives", to borrow a phrase. Don't g out into the wild, > or let your children go into the wild, without honestly addressing the > risks involved and talking to your loved ones. There's no need to dwell on > the details of worst-case scenarios, but I think there's real value in > confronting the issues. Many here have said they would not object to being > left in such a place, especially if the recovery effort would endanger the > recovery crew and/or the environment. How many of us feel the same but > have not told our loved ones? Do our loved ones know that we would not > consider it disrespectful to abandon a dangerous rescue? That out of > respect for others, the future, and this marvelous creation, we would > prefer that recovery efforts "leave no trace"? Etc. > > -Peter the discussion of this was quite heated in my house ... my wife said she would want my body back at any cost ... when i asked her why, she wouldn't answer... i told her, since we were already clear either of us were to be creamated, that i absolutely would NOT want people to risk their lives for my dead ass. of course i expected people to work like hell to RESCUE me, but not to retreive a body. it may be a few days before she speaks to me again ;-( but we're on the same page ... peter is right, talk to your spouses, SO's families, etc... mark #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com----http://www.diac.com/~zen/mark ---- # mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. po box 474 </ [\/ [_| [_\ ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ http://www.diac.com/~zen/paddler [index to club websites i administer] Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club, Colorado River Flows, Poudre Paddlers The Colorado Paddlers' Resource, Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page -- Fortune: Bravery is the capacity to perform properly even when scared half to death. --General Omar Bradley *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mark Zen wrote: > On Thu, 15 Jul 1999, Peter W wrote: > > > > [snip] Don't go out into the wild, > > or let your children go into the wild, without honestly addressing the > > risks involved and talking to your loved ones. [snip] > > Many here have said they would not object to being > > left in such a place, especially if the recovery effort would endanger the > > recovery crew and/or the environment. How many of us feel the same but > > have not told our loved ones? Do our loved ones know that we would not > > consider it disrespectful to abandon a dangerous rescue? That out of > > respect for others, the future, and this marvelous creation, we would > > prefer that recovery efforts "leave no trace"? Etc. > the discussion of this was quite heated in my house ... my wife said she > would want my body back at any cost ... when i asked her why, she wouldn't > answer... i told her, since we were already clear either of us were to be > cremated, that i absolutely would NOT want people to risk their lives for > my dead ass. I'm in Mark's camp, but understand the emotions of the family. No one has said this, but I suspect the body of the young girl is partially *visible* at times. If that were my son's body, that would be a very difficult thing to walk away from, despite my (and his) strong commitment to wilderness and no-trace interaction with it. It's cultural, also. My friends Mary and Link, who have Native American heritage, are aghast that I am not concerned about the eventual fate of my remains. They are culturally and religiously attached to the remains of their ancestors in a way I can not appreciate. I sympathize and understand the emotions of family members who balk at the abstract principle of a Wild and Scenic River designation in the face of their daughter's plight. Not an easy or comfortable thing to confront. And, a damn shame it has become a political football for the likes of the Honorable Senator Thurmond. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I was discussing this issue with my mother (of all people!) via email and was pleasantly surprised by her thoughtful response. "One doesn't need a body to mourn a death. Putting the shell in a grave means nothing - the spirit is gone. Plant a tree - make a living memorial - don't destroy something else to find what has been destroyed. Don't destroy another life to find a shell." Dave Seng Juneau, Alaska *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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