<Giant Snip from Matt Broze post> >If at all possible don't buy a kayak without trying it out, preferably in some wind and waves! I think the entire discussion on the waterline vs. overall length has been very interesting. Particularly because it is a discussion that is taking place at the very leading edge of the sport between such excellent and knowledgeable designers/paddlers as John Winters, Matt Broze and Nick Schade. It's this kind of thing that makes Paddlewise so valuable as well as the Internet as a whole. Although I rarely have the time to contribute I thoroughly enjoy reading every post. The Internet is also the vehicle that has expanded the choices and options for both buyers and sellers. To adhere to a strict rule of "try before you buy" is to dramatically limit your options. My company, QCC as well as Mariner, do not utilize retailers to sell our kayaks. Probably for very similar reasons, we have opted to design, build and offer our kayaks directly to the paddler. I think the advantages to this are immense, however, were it not for the Internet the people who enjoy our kayaks all over the world would be unable to do so. By the same token, if they had adhered to a strict rule of don't buy it until you try it they would not be paddling our boats either. For many individuals in many areas of the country, and the world for that matter, their choices are very limited. I live just 30 minutes from one of the largest paddle sports retailers in the USA yet there are more kayaks that are not offered than are offered, QCC and Mariner just to name a few. I know from talking to customers that in many areas their choices are very limited or there are no retailers at all. I agree that there is an added element of risk for the buyer purchasing sight unseen. However, there are things that can be done to mitigate the risk. I'm sure there many stories to be told about unhappy kayak buyers who purchased from retailers as well. Personally I won't buy anything from a local store, catalog house or Internet store unless they will give a 100% satisfaction money back guarantee, including shipping both ways. That tells me that returns are rare and they stand behind what they sell. The other thing is how I'm treated as a customer prior to purchasing. We regularly receive comments from folks that they received better service, more knowledgeable help and better answers to their questions than they did in their local store. I'm sure Matt Broze would concur with this and receives the same type of comments. Like in any industry some businesses are better run than others and there are very good shops and there are very good direct sellers as well, but to limit your choice to boats you can touch and feel is to exclude some very fine kayaks and values as well. Please don't construe this to mean that I am adverse to test paddling, quite the opposite, I think potential kayak purchasers should paddle as many boats as possible to get a good feel for the range of performance, comfort, outfitting and quality. However, having done that, they should not feel compelled to limit their choices to those paddled. A long distance purchase can be made with little risk when done so with a reputable company offering a good satisfaction guarantee as well as referrals from other satisfied customers. Then when you get your kayak you can paddle it on your waters, under your terms and in various conditions over several days and if it isn't everything you hoped, wanted or were told it would be, send it back! Regards, Steve Freund QCC Kayaks http://www.qcckayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I am one of QCC's satisfied customers. My wife has a QCC 400 and I have a QCC500 both in kevlar. We paddled many boats at different shops, attended the canoecopia and then checked boats online. Steve and his staff were very helpful and answered all our questions and concerns. We live in the Milwaukee area and Steve invited us down to view his production facilities and talk boats. They built the boats for us and delivered them on time. The pictures on their web site are not as exciting as seeing the boats in your driveway. Their staff called us after the purchase to make sure that we were completely satisfied with our purchase. Steve is right, you can purchase the right boat if you buy it from a first rate company that is truly concerned about customer satisfaction. Fred *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 4:33 PM -0500 7/28/99, QCC Kayaks wrote: ><Giant Snip from Matt Broze post> >>If at all possible don't buy a kayak without trying it out, preferably in >some wind and waves! <snipola> >I agree that there is an added element of risk for the buyer purchasing >sight unseen. However, there are things that can be done to mitigate the >risk. I'm sure there many stories to be told about unhappy kayak buyers who >purchased from retailers as well. Personally I won't buy anything from a >local store, catalog house or Internet store unless they will give a 100% >satisfaction money back guarantee, including shipping both ways. That tells >me that returns are rare and they stand behind what they sell. The other >thing is how I'm treated as a customer prior to purchasing. We regularly >receive comments from folks that they received better service, more >knowledgeable help and better answers to their questions than they did in >their local store. I'm sure Matt Broze would concur with this and receives >the same type of comments. Imagine trying to sell a boat where there is little opportunity to try-before-you-buy and before the customer even gets to try the boat he purchased, he must spend 200+ hours in the basement building it. I would love people have the opportunity to try my boats, but they basically need to visit me to do it. I would gladly refund any money they sent me if they are not happy, but I can not give them back their hours spent in the basement. Typically the only assurance they have that they are getting a good boat is my inflated opinion of my own work and their uncertain knowledge of their own ability to execute the plans. I don't want people to be disappointed in my designs but I know some people will be. I try to be accurate in my description of performance, but my idea of good performance is not neccessarily the same as someone elses. And as John has pointed out perception is a funny thing. In the past week someone said of one of my designs that he found it a little unstable, but the tracking was great. Someone else said of the same design that the stability was amazing, but he had problems with the tracking. This is a design I sold with the understanding that I had not tried it myself and that they would be taking a greater risk than normal. Now I don't know if the design needs fixing or what to fix about it. I am grateful that people are willing to take the risk. It is definitely fun for me, and I hope fun for the people building my designs. However, I hope people will at least try a selection of other boats before they start searching for a boat. Even if they can not try the boat they are interested in, they will have a better idea of what they like so they can ask informing questions. Nick Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 10 Ash Swamp Rd Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 Schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ >>>>"It's not just Art, It's a Craft!"<<<< *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Nick wrote; (SNIP) > In the past week someone >said of one of my designs that he found it a little unstable, but the >tracking was great. Someone else said of the same design that the stability >was amazing, but he had problems with the tracking. This is a design I sold >with the understanding that I had not tried it myself and that they would >be taking a greater risk than normal. Now I don't know if the design needs >fixing or what to fix about it. I believe this kind of thing happens a lot. I go so far as to provide comparisons of stability etc. with boats the buyer has some knowledge of and even then I get the same reactions as Nick got. Very frustrating. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Web site address, http://home.ican.net/~735769 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, 28 Jul 1999, QCC Kayaks wrote: [snip] > I agree that there is an added element of risk for the buyer purchasing > sight unseen. However, there are things that can be done to mitigate the > risk. I'm sure there many stories to be told about unhappy kayak buyers who > purchased from retailers as well. Personally I won't buy anything from a > local store, catalog house or Internet store unless they will give a 100% > satisfaction money back guarantee, including shipping both ways. That tells > me that returns are rare and they stand behind what they sell. The other > thing is how I'm treated as a customer prior to purchasing. We regularly > receive comments from folks that they received better service, more > knowledgeable help and better answers to their questions than they did in > their local store. I'm sure Matt Broze would concur with this and receives > the same type of comments. [snip] i've got to tell this from my side then ;-) my dad used to race sailboats, then he got into canoeing, and a few years ago, decided he liked sea kayaking the best... he started with a plastic boat [which he later sold me ;-], then got a glass boat. after a few years, he decided time to buy the one boat he would paddle the rest of his life ... after lots of research, and a few test paddles, he decided on the "mariner II"... he contacted matt, through the mail, as he's not on the net. matt asked what he was paddling, how tall, how much he weighed, how and where the boat would be paddled, then said two things. the first was my dad's [then] current boat was designed for a bigger paddler [matt, i'd _love_ to hear how you really described it, off-line if you'd like, the seda viking] and the 2nd recommendation was to NOT buy the mariner II. he felt it wouldn't be a good choice. now, he did recommend another mariner boat, more suited to my dad's alleged ;-) needs. [i say that in jest, as more experienced paddlers know, what you want now, might not be what you want in a year, or when you get it, you find you really wanted something else!!] anyway, through their mail and a phone call, my dad got the mariner max ... and loves it. he got the "feel" he wanted. he hasn't gotten to paddle it in rough weather yet, but has had a chance to paddle in 1ft chop. he was very satisfied by the way he was handled, and by the boat when he did finally receive it [i think he agonized a year over the purchase, it was shipped as soon as it was made, so the agony was because of him, not mariner kayaks] mark #------canoeist[at]netbox[dot]com----http://www.diac.com/~zen/mark ---- # mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. po box 474 </ [\/ [_| [_\ ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ http://www.diac.com/~zen/paddler [index to club websites i administer] Rocky Mtn Sea Kayak Club, Colorado River Flows, Poudre Paddlers The Colorado Paddlers' Resource, Rocky Mtn Canoe Club Trip Page -- Fortune: Why can we remember the tiniest detail that has happened to us, and not remember how many times we have told it to the same person? ---Francois De La Rochefouauld *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mark Zen wrote [Kruger's editing in brackets]: > [my father] was very satisfied by the way he was handled, [by Matt of > Mariner Kayaks] and by the boat when he did > finally receive it (i think he agonized a year over the purchase, it was shipped > as soon as it was made, so the agony was because of him, not mariner kayaks) Like your father, I tried to buy a kayak from Matt, but I wandered into their retail outlet on Lake Union in Seattle (this was 1992, I believe) as a complete, total ignoramus, babbling things like " ... well, I want a really stable, wide kayak ...." and had never paddled one before. I give Matt enormous credit for recognizing a mismatch in a flash. He sent me down the road to a more appropriate set of choices. Today, I'd LOVE a Mariner kayak, and could probably even make decent use of its capabilities. Few retailers would be as candid and honest as Matt was. "Blunt" is a better descriptor of the reaction he gave me. I think he is even a little above *my* rating on the curmudgeon scale! <g> -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: Mark Zen <canoeist_at_netbox.com> To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Date: Thursday, July 29, 1999 4:44 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Try before you buy? <SNIP> after lots of research, and a few test paddles, he decided on the "mariner II"... he contacted matt, through the mail, as he's not on the net. matt asked what he was paddling, how tall, how much he weighed, how and where the boat would be paddled, then said two things. the first was my dad's [then] current boat was designed for a bigger paddler [matt, i'd _love_ to hear how you >really described it, off-line if you'd like, the seda viking] and the 2nd >recommendation was to NOT buy the mariner II. he felt it wouldn't be a good >choice. <SNIP> I don't recall how I described the Seda Viking, nor do I recall the details of the conversation with your dad. I suspect that I thought your dad was smaller than what was optimal for the 25" wide, very deep Viking and he would be better suited by a narrower and lower kayak. I think the Viking is a very good kayak (for a much larger than average guy) and a great value as well so I doubt I criticized anything about it but its suitability for him. I happily sell Vikings to those suited to them. I suspect I recommended against the Mariner II because your dad was smaller, or older, or a less powerful paddler and might have more trouble handling the extra lever arm handed to the wind by a longer kayak. Alternately, maybe based on our conversation I realized that the Mariner II might not be as stable a kayak as he needed for what he planned to do with it (photography, fishing, etc.). I do not believe the customer is always right and try to get them into the kayak that will be what they need, not necessarily what they think they want. Hopefully if I've done my job well we handle a kayak model well suited to the caller. However, that is not always the case, one retired customer who had purchased an Escape from us in the early 80's called and needed a new kayak because as the result of a hip (or some other) operation he could no longer easily get into his Escape. None of the kayaks we sell would have been any significant improvement on the Escape so I recommended that he look into a Current Designs Pachena, as it had a huge cockpit and met his other modest needs for paddling in Florida. I had paddled one years before and found its handling seemed reasonable, I hated the huge cockpit, but remembered it. He bought one somewhere and sent us a nice (although with a sexist picture) postcard saying it was perfect for him. Even if a non-Mariner kayak we stock and sell fit his bill perfectly I would probably have suggested he look for a local dealer where he could try it out and buy it. If no local dealer had one in stock and he wanted to buy from us (and we were sure it was what he needed) then we would sell it and ship it to him. Our philosophy is that it is better (even financially in the long run) to lose the sale and make a friend than to make the sale but create a dissatisfied customer. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 01:49 AM 7/31/99 -0700, Matt Broze wrote: > Our philosophy is that it >is better (even financially in the long run) to lose the sale and make a >friend than to make the sale but create a dissatisfied customer. > Matt, that attitute is refreshing, and all too rare these days. That is one of the main things wrong with society today. Please hold onto that philosophy. Such a philosophy may leave you poorer in money for a time, but richer in spirit -- and it will ultimately pay off in the long run. Unfortunately for me, you're in the Pacific Northwest and I'm in Michigan or you'd have me in there looking for my next boat. However, I'm trying to talk my wife into a vacation out there next year . . . Keep up the good work! -- Wes *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Wes, And equally impressive is a man willing to stand up and say what YOU have. (Matt arguably has something to gain by his declaration. But from my reading, I BELIEVE he's sincere, and I hope he DOES gain business.) You, on the other hand, have nothing to gain, save for perhaps the snorts of derision from other members of the community. It's often much harder to speak out as you have. If only more folks would stand up and speak out for what's RIGHT in this increasingly uncivil world, this declining culture we live in, then maybe the future might look brighter. To me, at least. A tip of the hat to you, Wes. Bruce *** NOTE TO JACKIE: Fear not. I'm not a political rabble-rouser. Far from it. I'm just another Old Fart, soon to turn 52, who read Matt's good words, thought "Yeah!" and wanted to cheer him, but figured "Who knows who I am? Maybe I'd better just be quiet." And then Wes wrote this and I thought "Hooray! There are still good people out there! People with the courage of their convictions." So, I kinda piggy-backed my way into this. I'll be quiet now. Y'r H'mble S'rv'nt - Bruce >At 01:49 AM 7/31/99 -0700, Matt Broze wrote: > >> Our philosophy is that it >>is better (even financially in the long run) to lose the sale and make a >>friend than to make the sale but create a dissatisfied customer. >> > >Matt, that attitute is refreshing, and all too rare these days. That is one >of the main things wrong with society today. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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