Reminds me of an old joke... Q - Do you know the difference between a black bear and a grizzly? A - A black bear will chase you up a tree to get you-- a grizzly will just knock it down! :) Ed Bean -----Original Message----- From: Evan Dallas [SMTP:Evan_Dallas_at_notes.ntrs.com] Sent: Monday, August 16, 1999 2:47 PM To: PaddleWise Subject: [Paddlewise] Paddlewise: Grizzlies in Desolation Sound? The "Kayaking Routes of the Pacific Northwest" guidebook describes a few areas east of Desolation sound (on the way towards Toba inlet) as bear areas -- two on the mainland as "grizzley bear habitat", and one on the north east corner of West Redonda island as having a "healthy black bear population". Anyone know how frequent bear encounters are in this area? Being fairly cowardly kayakers, we're inclined to skip the grizzley areas altogether, even though the book describes them as having great camps (one wonders how great a camp is if you may have to share it with grizzlies). Also, many people say that black bears won't bother you as long as: (a) you don't corner them in any way; (b) you don't get between them and a cub or their food; (c) you don't have food near you or your camp (other than your own body, I suppose...); and (d) there aren't any menstruating paddlers with you. Any informed opinions on how reliable this advice is? I assume this is NOT true for grizzlies. If true for black bears, would it be ok to cook food in such a camp, or is it better to eat cold stuff? Evan *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
.....and of course, there is the pamphlet available from the National Park Service which details some basic common sense things that you can do to prevent any unpleasantness in a bear encounter.... you know, simple things to 'bear proof' yourself. And how to identify different species in you might encounter in the great outdoors. 1. Wear little metal bells on the frame of your backpack. This will cause you to make quite a racket while walking on the trail, and presumably you will not surprise a bear who is up to his neck in blueberries and munching. 2. Always carry pepper spray accessible on the outside of your pack. Remember, within reach! The bears will pretty much avoid you, so one excellent way to find out who lives in the woods you're hiking through, is to carefully observe their scat. (poo poo.) 1. Black bear scat has the fir and crushed bones from small mammals like ground squirrels......and a lot of undigested berries in it. 2. Grizzly bear scat has a lot of little bells in the scat and smells like cayenne pepper. Ed Bean wrote: > Reminds me of an old joke... > > Q - Do you know the difference between a black bear and a grizzly? > > A - A black bear will chase you up a tree to get you-- a grizzly will just knock it down! :) > > Ed Bean > > -----Original Message----- > From: Evan Dallas [SMTP:Evan_Dallas_at_notes.ntrs.com] > Sent: Monday, August 16, 1999 2:47 PM > To: PaddleWise > Subject: [Paddlewise] Paddlewise: Grizzlies in Desolation Sound? > > The "Kayaking Routes of the Pacific Northwest" guidebook describes a few > areas east of Desolation sound (on the way towards Toba inlet) as bear > areas -- two on the mainland as "grizzley bear habitat", and one on the > north east corner of West Redonda island as having a "healthy black bear > population". Anyone know how frequent bear encounters are in this area? > Being fairly cowardly kayakers, we're inclined to skip the grizzley areas > altogether, even though the book describes them as having great camps (one > wonders how great a camp is if you may have to share it with grizzlies). > > Also, many people say that black bears won't bother you as long as: (a) you > don't corner them in any way; (b) you don't get between them and a cub or > their food; (c) you don't have food near you or your camp (other than your > own body, I suppose...); and (d) there aren't any menstruating paddlers > with you. Any informed opinions on how reliable this advice is? I assume > this is NOT true for grizzlies. If true for black bears, would it be ok to > cook food in such a camp, or is it better to eat cold stuff? > > Evan > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"2. Always carry pepper spray accessible on the outside of your pack. Remember, within reach" I seem to recall reading an article in a recent issue of Backpacker that mentioned that if you are going to carry pepper spray to make sure that it is specifically BEAR spray(it should say so somewhere on the can)otherwise it isn't strong enough to be effective--I'm pretty sure thats what I read, but I should add a caveat about my memory. I'm sure the more bear-literate paddlers can correct me if I'm wrong. Also, When I was doing some hiking in Hokkaido Japan we were required to tie bells to the pack frames (because of the Brown bears they have)- I didn't see a bear the whole time, but it did give me advance warning of other approaching people...particularly useful warning system if you are trying to pee behind the only bush on the tundra:) -A *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
|I seem to recall reading an article in a recent issue of Backpacker that |mentioned that if you are going to carry pepper spray to make sure that it |is specifically BEAR spray(it should say so somewhere on the can)otherwise |it isn't strong enough to be effective--I'm pretty sure thats what I read, |but I should add a caveat about my memory. I'm sure the more bear-literate |paddlers can correct me if I'm wrong. The thing to remember about defensive sprays for bears, other four legged creatures or the really dangerous two legged animals, is not so much on the strength of the pepper mixture but how the stuff squirts out of the can. Defensive sprays exit the can either as a stream or a fog. A fog does not reach out from the user any great distance, a couple yards at most, and is very much effected by wind and movement. A stream can really hit a target many yards out but then the user has to be good at aiming. And of course movement and wind enter the equation. With fog the user is almost certain to get a dose of the pepper spray. The FBI recommends a mixture of 5.5% pepper for two legged creatures. The pain induced by the spray does not increase with a larger percentage of pepper only the length of time that it remains very painful. The 5.5% is going to be very very very painful for 45 minutes to an hour. If hit in the eyes, your eyes are gonna close. You want them closed. You never want to open your eyes again. Its nice to keep your eyes closed. If the stuff is inhaled, even the least bit, all fluids in your nose and sinus are coming out. If you inhale a good dose, your breathing is constricted as a your breathing passages inflame from the pepper. Not fun. Even with all of this badness an attacker, regardless of leg count, can still be a threat. Pepper spray is bad stuff or good stuff depending on one's point of view. Mace is not worth much but is better than nothing. I don't know what the percentage of pepper is in the bear spray just make sure that it is an alcohol carrier. Not water. Oil and water does not mix and the pepper component is actually an oil. Thus you have to shake the can to get it to mix before using. I don't wanna have to shake a can before spraying something that is trying to hurt me. The down side to the alcohol carrier is that it is flamable so don't go spraying around fire. The NYPD killed a man who had barricaded himself in a bathroom after they threw in canisters of pepper spray which soaked him in alcohol. When he still refused to surrender they threw in a flash bang grenade to stun him prior to entry. Hmmm, sparks and flamable liquid. Not real bright. He cooked. Course its not much different than what appeared to happen in Waco but that is another thread. If you do carry pepper spray, point it down wind from time to time and push the button. Make sure it works. I don't suggest spraying yourself, but if you get a drop on your finger, sniff it. You'll get a idea of what the spray is all about. If you use the spray you stand a very good chance of getting hit with it. Nature of the beast. A little whiff will get your eyes to watering and you will start sneezing. Try to avoid spraying yourself. This stuff is very nasty. Even after you think it is gone, once you take a shower it will reawaken and get you again. Don't dose yourself on purpose. Trust Me! 8-) I would be curious about the pepper percentage in the bear sprays. And how the percentage was decided on for use on bears. Well that was much longer than I had intended! Hope this helps... Dan McCarty *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
dmccarty_at_us.ibm.com wrote: > >BIG SNIP< > I would be curious about the pepper percentage in the bear sprays. And how the > percentage was decided on for use on bears. > > I wouldn't be testing the stuff any. There is just so much in a can and I would want it ALL in there, if I ever needed it. Besides, as I said, it is documented to ATTRACT bears, so walking down the trail spraying is akin to laying out a bread crumb trail. :>) I've never carried the stuff personally, I might add. Staying calm and waiting until the bear is close enough, especially in a full bore charge, will be a religious exsperiance tho.. For starters check this site. http://www.counterassault.com/information.htm James *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
dmccarty_at_us.ibm.com wrote: > >BIG SNIP< > I would be curious about the pepper percentage in the bear sprays. And how the > percentage was decided on for use on bears. > > |I wouldn't be testing the stuff any. There is just so much in a can and I |would want it ALL in there, if I ever needed it. Besides, as I said, it |is documented to ATTRACT bears, so walking down the trail spraying is |akin to laying out a bread crumb trail. :>) I don't think you should be spraying on the trail. But if you carry the stuff it would be real to know that the can works. They can leak and become clogged up. I have seen cans that are full but would not work. To discover that your can ain't gonna work when you need to spray could turn into a very very very bad day. Test Spray before you leave home. Just point in the correct direction! 8-) |I've never carried the stuff personally, I might add. |Staying calm and waiting until the bear is close enough, especially in a |full bore charge, will be a religious exsperiance tho.. Very Very Very true. I think the spray for use on bears is better than nothing but just bearly, sorry could not resist. The bear is going to be very close and the user is going to have to have enormous prescense of mind to spray the bear. And even then the outcome is going to be iffy. On a person the odds are a bit better. I have seen black bears while hiking on two occasions. Awesome. I was very close both times and it was wonderful. The last time I was between mom and her cub. Gulp. Mom was about 30 minutes hiking time from the cub and had plenty of time to see me zig zaging up the trail. I did not see mom until she got up and ran after the large deer that we had spooked. Later.... Dan *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
A couple of years ago while investigating the idea of allowing our campus public safety officers to carry pepper spray, I found an article which suggested getting hit in the face with this stuff was like having a lit sparkler shoved up your nose. We bought lots. Larry Mills > -----Original Message----- > From: dmccarty_at_us.ibm.com [SMTP:dmccarty_at_us.ibm.com] > Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 4:05 P.M. > To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Grizzlies in Desolation Sound? > > |I seem to recall reading an article in a recent issue of Backpacker that > |mentioned that if you are going to carry pepper spray to make sure that > it > |is specifically BEAR spray(it should say so somewhere on the > can)otherwise > |it isn't strong enough to be effective--I'm pretty sure thats what I > read, > |but I should add a caveat about my memory. I'm sure the more > bear-literate > |paddlers can correct me if I'm wrong. > > The thing to remember about defensive sprays for bears, other four legged > creatures or the really dangerous two legged animals, is not so much on > the > strength of the pepper mixture but how the stuff squirts out of the can. > Defensive sprays exit the can either as a stream or a fog. A fog does not > reach > out from the user any great distance, a couple yards at most, and is very > much > effected by wind and movement. A stream can really hit a target many > yards out > but then the user has to be good at aiming. And of course movement and > wind > enter the equation. With fog the user is almost certain to get a dose of > the > pepper spray. > > The FBI recommends a mixture of 5.5% pepper for two legged creatures. The > pain > induced by the spray does not increase with a larger percentage of pepper > only > the length of time that it remains very painful. The 5.5% is going to be > very > very very painful for 45 minutes to an hour. If hit in the eyes, your > eyes are > gonna close. You want them closed. You never want to open your eyes > again. > Its nice to keep your eyes closed. If the stuff is inhaled, even the > least bit, > all fluids in your nose and sinus are coming out. If you inhale a good > dose, > your breathing is constricted as a your breathing passages inflame from > the > pepper. > > Not fun. Even with all of this badness an attacker, regardless of leg > count, > can still be a threat. > > Pepper spray is bad stuff or good stuff depending on one's point of view. > Mace > is not worth much but is better than nothing. > > I don't know what the percentage of pepper is in the bear spray just make > sure > that it is an alcohol carrier. Not water. Oil and water does not mix and > the > pepper component is actually an oil. Thus you have to shake the can to > get it > to mix before using. I don't wanna have to shake a can before spraying > something that is trying to hurt me. The down side to the alcohol carrier > is > that it is flamable so don't go spraying around fire. The NYPD killed a > man who > had barricaded himself in a bathroom after they threw in canisters of > pepper > spray which soaked him in alcohol. When he still refused to surrender > they > threw in a flash bang grenade to stun him prior to entry. Hmmm, sparks and > flamable liquid. Not real bright. He cooked. Course its not much > different > than what appeared to happen in Waco but that is another thread. > > If you do carry pepper spray, point it down wind from time to time and > push the > button. Make sure it works. I don't suggest spraying yourself, but if > you get > a drop on your finger, sniff it. You'll get a idea of what the spray is > all > about. If you use the spray you stand a very good chance of getting hit > with > it. Nature of the beast. A little whiff will get your eyes to watering > and you > will start sneezing. Try to avoid spraying yourself. This stuff is very > nasty. > Even after you think it is gone, once you take a shower it will reawaken > and get > you again. Don't dose yourself on purpose. Trust Me! 8-) > > I would be curious about the pepper percentage in the bear sprays. And > how the > percentage was decided on for use on bears. > > Well that was much longer than I had intended! > > Hope this helps... > Dan McCarty > > > > > ************************************************************************** > * > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > ************************************************************************** > * *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
|A couple of years ago while investigating the idea of allowing |our campus public safety officers to carry pepper spray, I |found an article which suggested getting hit in the face with |this stuff was like having a lit sparkler shoved up your nose. | We bought lots. Water at least will put out the sparkler! 8-) Cool water only kinda helps with the pepper spray. It helps but it only puts off what is to come...... 8-) Later... Dan *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I'll second that. I thought it would be a good idea to test a can to see how far it would spray. I let off one spray and the smallest amount came back towards me in the form of a fine mist. When it touched me it felt as though someone had poured gasoline into my eyes and then lit them on fire. I can't begin to imagine getting a full dose. -----Original Message----- From: Mills, Larry [mailto:Larry.Mills_at_exchange.purchase.edu] Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 4:35 PM To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Grizzlies in Desolation Sound? A couple of years ago while investigating the idea of allowing our campus public safety officers to carry pepper spray, I found an article which suggested getting hit in the face with this stuff was like having a lit sparkler shoved up your nose. We bought lots. Larry Mills > -----Original Message----- > From: dmccarty_at_us.ibm.com [SMTP:dmccarty_at_us.ibm.com] > Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 4:05 P.M. > To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Grizzlies in Desolation Sound? > > |I seem to recall reading an article in a recent issue of Backpacker that > |mentioned that if you are going to carry pepper spray to make sure that > it > |is specifically BEAR spray(it should say so somewhere on the > can)otherwise > |it isn't strong enough to be effective--I'm pretty sure thats what I > read, > |but I should add a caveat about my memory. I'm sure the more > bear-literate > |paddlers can correct me if I'm wrong. > > The thing to remember about defensive sprays for bears, other four legged > creatures or the really dangerous two legged animals, is not so much on > the > strength of the pepper mixture but how the stuff squirts out of the can. > Defensive sprays exit the can either as a stream or a fog. A fog does not > reach > out from the user any great distance, a couple yards at most, and is very > much > effected by wind and movement. A stream can really hit a target many > yards out > but then the user has to be good at aiming. And of course movement and > wind > enter the equation. With fog the user is almost certain to get a dose of > the > pepper spray. > > The FBI recommends a mixture of 5.5% pepper for two legged creatures. The > pain > induced by the spray does not increase with a larger percentage of pepper > only > the length of time that it remains very painful. The 5.5% is going to be > very > very very painful for 45 minutes to an hour. If hit in the eyes, your > eyes are > gonna close. You want them closed. You never want to open your eyes > again. > Its nice to keep your eyes closed. If the stuff is inhaled, even the > least bit, > all fluids in your nose and sinus are coming out. If you inhale a good > dose, > your breathing is constricted as a your breathing passages inflame from > the > pepper. > > Not fun. Even with all of this badness an attacker, regardless of leg > count, > can still be a threat. > > Pepper spray is bad stuff or good stuff depending on one's point of view. > Mace > is not worth much but is better than nothing. > > I don't know what the percentage of pepper is in the bear spray just make > sure > that it is an alcohol carrier. Not water. Oil and water does not mix and > the > pepper component is actually an oil. Thus you have to shake the can to > get it > to mix before using. I don't wanna have to shake a can before spraying > something that is trying to hurt me. The down side to the alcohol carrier > is > that it is flamable so don't go spraying around fire. The NYPD killed a > man who > had barricaded himself in a bathroom after they threw in canisters of > pepper > spray which soaked him in alcohol. When he still refused to surrender > they > threw in a flash bang grenade to stun him prior to entry. Hmmm, sparks and > flamable liquid. Not real bright. He cooked. Course its not much > different > than what appeared to happen in Waco but that is another thread. > > If you do carry pepper spray, point it down wind from time to time and > push the > button. Make sure it works. I don't suggest spraying yourself, but if > you get > a drop on your finger, sniff it. You'll get a idea of what the spray is > all > about. If you use the spray you stand a very good chance of getting hit > with > it. Nature of the beast. A little whiff will get your eyes to watering > and you > will start sneezing. Try to avoid spraying yourself. This stuff is very > nasty. > Even after you think it is gone, once you take a shower it will reawaken > and get > you again. Don't dose yourself on purpose. Trust Me! 8-) > > I would be curious about the pepper percentage in the bear sprays. And > how the > percentage was decided on for use on bears. > > Well that was much longer than I had intended! > > Hope this helps... > Dan McCarty > > > > > ************************************************************************** > * > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > ************************************************************************** > * *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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