<< How many people have actually been saved by wearing pfd's? I don't want any anecdotal stories here, but actual documented accounts of people who are alive today because they were wearing their pfd. There is NO WAY one can determine unequivocally that the pfd saved their lives, or that a paddler might be alive today had they been wearing one! << There was a story in the news a few weeks ago about a drowning in northern Minnesota. A man and a child capsized or fell out of a fishing boat. The man, who was not wearing a PFD, drowned; the child, who WAS wearing a PFD, survived and was rescued. This reminded me of the debate about wearing PFDs on Wavelength before Jackie started Paddlewise. Caveman asked at one point why one should be required to wear a PFD on water warm enough to swim in. At the time, this question stumped me, but later it occurred to me that most people swim near shore or near a boat or raft; few, if any, swim as far out as most kayakers paddle. Depending on circumstances, a kayaker dumping far from shore and separated from his boat, even if a good swimmer, could drown from exhaustion alone before reaching shore or being rescued. And I know from experience that one can get cold even in Hawaiian waters if you are in the water long enough. In fact, there has been a rash of drownings in Minnesota this summer, including four in one weekend, but most of the deaths happened while swimming, not while boating. Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> From: CHUCK_at_multitech.com (Chuck Holst) <snip> > This reminded me of the debate about wearing PFDs on Wavelength before > Jackie started Paddlewise. Caveman asked at one point why one should be > required to wear a PFD on water warm enough to swim in. At the time, > this question stumped me, but later it occurred to me that most people > swim near shore or near a boat or raft; few, if any, swim as far out as > most kayakers paddle. <snip> > Chuck Holst Hi Chuck, I believe that as a general rule, wearing pfd's is a smart idea. I think some of the paddling without pfd's Caveman was referencing was when using the boat as a dive platform for snorkeling and poking around areas where swimmers would go (however, I think he may have also been one to seldom wear a pfd, regardless). There was also a discussion about wearing pfd's in surf where, if a paddler wipes out, he/she would not be able to dive under a wave in heavy surf (a consideration in a discussion by one of the Tsunami Rangers who preferred a thick wetsuit for buoyancy rather than a pfd... one also needs to be able to dive under a boat tumbling in the surf towards him/her). This discussion was about extremely experienced kayak surfers/swimmers. Not to add yet another controversial safety device to the discussion :-) but.. probably a helmet might be more critical in those circumstances which many surf kayakers wear religiously. I've mostly paddled off the Texas coast where air temps and shallow water temps can both be in the 90's F in the middle of the summer. We have taken boats into shallow areas for viewing wildlife where no motor craft go and the water is no deeper than waist-deep. Many of these shallow ponds exist inside the barrier islands where we like to camp (we wear our pfd's on the trip out to the islands, of course). The kayak during these explorations is primarily a moving viewing platform for watching wildlife. I consider a pfd in those circumstances about as necessary then as I would putting on a seatbelt to vacuum out my car. Some folks use SOT's as diving platforms only a short, swimable distance from shore. But I want to emphasize that I think these are exceptions to the general rule of being a wise paddler by wearing a pfd when kayaking. Cheers, Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jackie Fenton wrote: > There was also a discussion about > wearing pfd's in surf where, if a paddler wipes out, he/she would not be > able to dive under a wave in heavy surf (a consideration in a discussion > by one of the Tsunami Rangers who preferred a thick wetsuit for buoyancy > rather than a pfd... one also needs to be able to dive under a boat tumbling > in the surf towards him/her). FWIW, a 3mm farmer john has about 6 lb bouyancy. A full 7mm diver's wetsuit* has about 20 lb bouyancy. A type III PFD has about 15 lb. So the full 7mm wetsuit has around the same bouyancy but more insulation than a farmer john plus a pfd. But a 7mm is kinda bulky and stiff. They are probably using something in between, but still with good bouyancy. It's easier to dive with the distributed bouyancy of a wetsuit than the concentrated bouyancy of a pfd. So the Tsunami Ranger's approach seems to make sense for rough, cold water. Mike *that's a 7mm farmer john and a long-sleeved jacket. The jacket includes shorts that go down to mid-thigh. Plus a hood and gloves. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I'll be this whole discussion shows up someday when some would be adventurer seaches infoseek with "sea+kayaking+Rome." Barbara Who's paddled not far from Rome in a life jacket, "il salvagente" to the Romans. Sea Kayak Italy http://www.seakayakitaly.com tel. 650-728-8720 fax 650-728-8753 bkossy_at_igc.org *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Jackie and all, Jackie wrote: >I believe that as a general rule, wearing pfd's is a smart idea...There was also a discussion about wearing pfd's in surf where, if a paddler... blah, blah, blah Caveman, blah, blah, Tsunami gang, blah, blah... This discussion was about extremely experienced kayak surfers/swimmers. OK, how do you define an "extremely experienced" kayaker? There are a lot of armchair paddlers in the world who talk more than they paddle. Cheerio, Dave Williams paddler_at_loxinfo.co.th http://paddleasia.com Phuket, Thailand *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Here's a little story that relates to two of the threads going on currently - overheating and PFDs: A friend of mine wanted to do a personally challenging 20+ miles solo paddle from Phuket Island to Phi Phi island (OK, it's pronounced Pee Pee... the "h" is silent). Anyway, he had trained extensively for this trip. He's one of those paddler who usually wears a PFD, even in the heat. To make a long story short, he left before sunrise during the non-monsoon season. That means the weather is going to be rather warm with very little wind. He landed on Phi Phi and vomited! He felt horrible. He took his PFD off on the way across the crossing. I don't really know if he would have made it if he'd have kept the PFD on. He told me that he doesn't think he would. I think that a PFD is always a good idea in cold water. The big difference in warm water is that you can stay in the water for a long time without suffering from the water temperature. You don't loose your strength due to heat loss. BTW, so far, I've never become separated from my kayak. Because of the heat and the pain that my buddy went through on his crossing to Phi Phi, I decided to do it at night. Jean-Philip and Luke of CASKE2000 http://www.caske2000.org/caske.htm were training for their trip with me at the time. The heat simply wasn't an issue. Plus, it was absolutely magical. There were storms all around us all night and we saw a waterspout at daybreak! (when we left Phi Phi, there weren't any storms in sight. We would have waited had we seen any storms) Cheers, Dave Williams paddler_at_loxinfo.co.th http://paddleasia.com Phuket, Thailand *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave Williams wrote: > OK, how do you define an "extremely experienced" kayaker blah, blah, blah, > armchair paddlers blah blah blah... > > Cheerio, > Dave Williams I'd say a kayaker with an extreme lot of experience kayaking in the conditions in question and still alive to pass along info to the rest of us :-) Fruitloop, Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Jackie and all, I said, > OK, how do you define an "extremely experienced" kayaker blah, blah, blah, armchair paddlers blah blah blah... Jackie replied: >I'd say a kayaker with an extreme lot of experience kayaking in the conditions in question and still alive to pass along info to the rest of us :-) Ok, that's a good answer and I agree with it. To expand on that thought, I believe that there is more to experience than mere time on the water. Someone who has spent 20 year paddling under easy conditions is not necessarily an "experienced" paddler. That person might not be able to handle more challenging conditions. This is not to say that everyone should push harder and try more difficult conditions. We all have our reasons for entering this sport. The point is that when most people hear the word "experience" they equate it with various high levels of expertise or skill. It ain't necessarily so! I agree with you that we need to put the under "conditions in question" clause in there. There are expert beginners. Someone who has mastered all the skills necessary to paddle easy water in a safe and efficient manner would be such a person. Problems arise when this person doesn't realize his/her limits. By adding adverse conditions into the equation, you get a better idea of who is really "experienced". Some people can handle stress better than others. They could deal with adverse conditions through their strong will even if they don't have a lot of experience (the time on the water type of experience). They keep a calm head and use logic to analyze the situation. In light of this, I think we'd have a very difficult time labelling paddlers. We'd have to see how they reacted in actual threatening situations. We could certainly say that she/he has great boat control and superb skills. BTW, thanks for all the replies about getting in trouble in warm water under calm conditions. I thought I'd get some feedback on that. I agree that conditions can and often do change rapidly. We've got to be ready for those "what ifs"! A PFD certainly gives you an added bit of protection in almost all circumstances. I admit that I don't wear one all the time when I'm paddling with my buddies in calm conditions. It's always nearby, but I'm taking a chance. Hey, at least I admit it! Cheers, Dave Williams paddler_at_loxinfo.co.th http://paddleasia.com Phuket, Thailand *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave Williams wrote: >BTW, thanks for all the replies about getting in trouble in warm water under >calm conditions. I thought I'd get some feedback on that. I agree that >conditions can and often do change rapidly. We've got to be ready for those >"what ifs"! A PFD certainly gives you an added bit of protection in almost >all circumstances. I admit that I don't wear one all the time when I'm >paddling with my buddies in calm conditions. It's always nearby, but I'm >taking a chance. Hey, at least I admit it! Hi gang, I take this issue of flotation devices, personally <g> just because I expose myself to more risk than the average Pacific Northwest kayaker (don't know about other locals). The few times I've had to "swim", my PFD was a pain in the butt. Cases in point: swimming out of a eddy, trying to dive under an exploding wave, doing a reentry and roll, etc, were all impeded by the wearing of my PFD -- or more precisely, its superior buoyancy. Yet the couple of times I separated from my kayak, or could not get back in for a while, I then truly appreciated my "life jacket". I don't imagine many of you on this list have had the experience of bobbing up and down in a rough sea in a real emergency, trying not to suck in seawater while you gasp for air, but a PFD properly sized and fit, makes all the difference. Overall, wearing a PFD still makes sense, and our club insists upon it for entry level participants on up for sponsored trips. Instructors always wear them too, even when not needed such as in the pool -- just to emphasize and reinforce their use. A couple of years ago a famous manager of a west coast hockey team fell out of his boat and floated in the whitecaps all day out in the middle of the Straight of Georgia before the hovercraft found him. Statistically, he should have expired within two hours, but he managed much longer, being rescued just in time. He was wearing a PFD. However, just like I don't always use the guard on my table saw, I don't always wear my PFD. The coast guard worldwide, consistently hammers home the need to wear PFD's, so I try to comply when in public view or with a newbie. The only real rule up here is that your PFD must be readily accessible -- that, I always comply with. Paul Caffyn circumnavigated Australia in blistering heat around an incredibly challenging coastline, with his PFD in an accessible net bag on his front deck. I usually like to remove my PFD on hot days too. Sometimes I remove it because I start getting a lot of chaffing, and you know what that feels like when the salt chuck makes contact -- ouch! I run into a fair number of open water canoeists in the summer, and many of them are wearing the new "Mustang" inflatable devices. They look like suspenders and are very non-restrictive. Emergency gear is carried in a fanny pack. I think I will follow suit next summer. BTW, I've paddled in extreme heat in my wetsuit. I roll every 30 minutes. Two issues here. 1) The second I come back up, my glasses start to steam up -- this is no good. 2) I've never suffered hyperthermia in the wet suit (sorry Jackie, no accounts), but I sure stunk something fierce after a few days!! PS We had a record lightning storm around here a couple of nights ago with thousand of hits in a few hours. Half of Victoria lined the waterfront roads as we watched the Olympic Peninsula get hammered. Any Paddlewisers live near the Olympics? How did you make out? BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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