>> Same thing applys to kayaking maybe. More gear don't alway mean more safe..?? >> There is some truth in this statement, but I think the gear vs. skills argument is a false dichotomy. My observation here in the Midwest is that, generally speaking, the kayakers with the best skills are also those who are most conscientious about safety and most likely to spend money on Goretex dry suits. I became convinced of the importance of skills when a brace that came out of nowhere saved me from a watery death (well, a wet exit, anyway), and I have acciduously practiced my kayaking skills ever since -- but I still wear a dry suit on cold water, and I always wear my PFD. Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Chuck Holst wrote: > > >> > Same thing applys to kayaking maybe. More gear don't alway mean more > safe..?? > >> > > There is some truth in this statement, but I think the gear vs. skills > argument is a false dichotomy. My observation here in the Midwest is > that, generally speaking, the kayakers with the best skills are also > those who are most conscientious about safety and most likely to spend > money on Goretex dry suits. I became convinced of the importance of > skills when a brace that came out of nowhere saved me from a watery > death (well, a wet exit, anyway), and I have acciduously practiced my > kayaking skills ever since -- but I still wear a dry suit on cold water, > and I always wear my PFD. > I believe you... And I agree with you and the others 100% on the issue of they will add time to your survivial. What I question is gear being purchased and using it as a crutch to "maybe" get in over ones head, thats all. This list pours out an amazing amount of good information. How someone uses it can vary alot. Many things(spell that decisions)can only be called on from a learning curve(time). The right gear "might" shorten the learning curve of some people too sharply. I realize my writing skills "suck", but what I am trying to say(gently), is that going down to the local paddle shop and buying all the right "things" isn't necessarlly going to save your butt, infact it just might lead someone into making a left turn on a red light. I don't know,??, maybe you all paddle in conditions that I wouldn't think of even IF I were wearing a dry suit. Then again, maybe what I consider a normal winter paddle, you might not follow me, even in your dry suit?? I only know I paddled a lot of years before I joined this list and was kinda supprised that a carhart jacket wasn't normal equipment on the water!!<G> (I got one hanging out in the shed thats got water stains from one end of the Yukon to the other) None of us owned any fleese either. I still stand behind my statement that having gear is likely to be oversimplacating the danger/risk of being out there, sometimes. Sorry about the long over. James, needing about a week somewhere cool."and not humid" *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> >> > Same thing applys to kayaking maybe. More gear don't alway mean more > safe..?? > >> > > There is some truth in this statement, but I think the gear vs. skills > argument is a false dichotomy. My observation here in the Midwest is > that, generally speaking, the kayakers with the best skills are also > those who are most conscientious about safety and most likely to spend > money on Goretex dry suits. <snip> > Chuck Holst This has been my experience, too. The more experienced paddlers I've seen are practicing safety. Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
oh well, i haven't had an opportunity to paddle in Rome,... yet. on the other hand, i do paddle my local waterways,.. humble though they be. while i can't save the world, perhaps i can save me. enjoy my outing, hopefully return another day, if there really is a way to save everyone from all perils, hopefully it will be posted to Paddlewise, then i'll paddle till i'm 103... cu, bliven *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 8/6/99 6:12:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, n5yyx_at_etsc.net writes: << None of us owned any fleese either. James, needing about a week somewhere cool."and not humid" >> I hear you, James. Where do you live? Right now I could just about kill to see a mountain and get some cool, fresh air. This thread on wet/drysuits is beyond most of our water temps, but James' comment on fleece did bring back a thought. On an infamous Cape Sable canoe trip I had thought of taking my kayaking PFD and didn't (first mistake), fortunately I was paddling with an experienced kayaker who was wearing his. When I saw the first canoe tip and realized it was our most experienced canoeists, I quickly grabbed the rinky-dink life jackets carried per Coast Guard regulations and put it on. Then another canoe went, and finally ours did. I was wearing it at the time and am very grateful for it. We were in the water for a long time (probably 30 minutes) until we were rescued by a power boater. The point is that I was wearing micro-fleece tights and vest, plus a regular fleece vest (this was the end of December when the natives don't swim). I kept saying "Thank God the water's not cold" only to receive glaring looks accompanied by the sound of chattering teeth. The fleece kept me warm enough that when our canoe was being towed I hopped back in to hold it upright as the gear was floating away. Sandy Kramer Miami *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi folks -- Further on the PFD discussion, here in South Florida both the air and water are warm, at least to me. And I am pretty heat and sun intolerant. I paddle a self-bailing (with scupper holes) Prism SOT which lets me pour water over myself frequently (wear a long-sleeved cotton shirt and long pants), or I couldn't manage a lot of the time. I paddle in non-threatening water, ordinarily with others though I like paddling alone. And no, I don't ordinarily wear a PFD but have it bungeed over the front hatch unless I foresee there could be a problem, in which case it is either on, or over the back hatch where I can get to it. I've practiced re-entries and it's easier to get back on the boat without a PFD on. I feel that the comfort of not wearing the PFD under these circumstances outbalances the risks, though of course they are not zero. However --here's my Dumbest Thing (what's yours?): One day last May I was coming down the Gulf coast after paddling some rivers with a friend, and decided to check out Caladesi Island, which is one of the barrier islands north of Clearwater and Tampa. It is accessed via Honeymoon Island, directly north of it across a narrow inlet called Hurricane Pass. The map I was looking at indicated that Caladesi was no more than 2-2 1/2 miles long, and I had read that the inland side was good for birding, etc. I planned just to drive to Honeymoon Island, put in at the beach on the south west Gulf side, paddle south across Hurricane Pass and continue along Caladesi, then cut inside, look at the birds, and come up on the inside back to the put-in. Should have been a short trip. It was windy, and there was some surf, and I should have at least put my PFD behind me. But that wasn't my biggest mistake of the day. Also, I trusted the map I had looked at. And that wasn't my biggest mistake of the day, either. When I got across the pass and proceeded south, there was quite a nice surf, and the wind was at my back pushing the surf about SW. A lovely ride, although more sea than I had been used to in So. Fla. in my Prism. (I've been in heavier seas in Scotland, but in a real boat.) I decided to rig up a paddle leash just in case. I kept going, looking for the south end of Caladesi. That island must be longer than the map shows, I thought. But it's a fine ride! And I'll be sheltered on the way back so the wind and waves both against me won't be a problem.... Well, the end of Caladesi apparently doesn't exist, at least at that state of the tide. I ended up at the south end of Clearwater Beach, some 6-7 miles from the put-in according to the lifeguard, who immediately ordered me back into the water, as you're not allowed to have a boat on a swimming beach. Can I return by going under that causeway just south and paddling up north on the inside? He was pretty sure I couldn't get through. (......oh......shit......) And THERE, folks, was where I made my biggest mistake. I didn't put the PFD on before heading back. It was a fight, but I consoled myself by the thought that it was no more than I deserved for not looking at a real chart first. And anyway, I needed to build up my arm strength. I was tired as I got closer to the inlet. Stopped on the beach at Caladesi to pee, relaunched into the surf, and approached Hurricane Pass. What I saw may have changed my rosy complexion: my trip had taken so much longer than anticipated that the tide had changed, and was now going out that narrow (maybe a quarter mile) inlet, against the wind. There was a row of BIG LONG breakers stretching across the pass, parallel to my intended direction, of course. There was no way I could go anywhere but out to the west, pretty much perpendicular to the waves, without broaching and being flipped at once. And it seemed I couldn't make any progress at all. Nor could I stop and rest, of course. If I had had time to think, I would've been scared (and no doubt would have wished I had donned the PFD), but I was way too busy to do anything but keep the boat at the right angle and try to get to the north gradually. Had I flipped, I'm sure there's no way I could have gotten back onto the boat in that water; I would have had to wait until I was washed well eastward. I would have put the PFD on after flipping, of course -- if possible with those huge waves breaking over me, and if I were lucky enough to stay with the boat. Obviously I made it. I was so tired, though, that I had to ask a passerby for help getting the Prism back onto the car (unlike Blanche, I try not to depend on the kindness of strangers). And I was too wasted the next day even to drive home. Later, telling the tale to some sailor/kayaker friends, eyes rolled when I said I'd never known what wind and tide going in opposite directions can do. Its something I'll never forget now. I hope I'll also remember a few other things.... Slainte! e Elaine Harmon - eilidh_at_dc.seflin.org - eharmon_at_cs.miami.edu *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I just reread it, and see my wind direction was given wrong. It was of course blowing to the SE not quite directly behind me (not to the SW as I said) on the way down to Clearwater Beach. Elaine Harmon - eilidh_at_dc.seflin.org - eharmon_at_cs.miami.edu *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> I still stand behind my statement that having gear is likely to be > oversimplacating the danger/risk of being out there, sometimes. You're right. Gear alone isn't going to help you necessarily except for that PFD. And none of it, even the PFD on you, should make you feel so "safe" that you take risks that are beyond your skill and mindset to deal with without panic. John Winters has often stated that the danger of equipment is that it might embolden individuals when weighing risks. He is right. Like him, I hope wearing a PFD is never seen as a sure fire way out of things. But do wear it as it is the simplest gear you have in terms of learning how to use it. You know, put your left arm through the left arm hole, the right through the right, tighten straps and zip up; practice a lot, preferably on land. Anyone can become an expert at wearing one. :-) ralph diaz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sat, 7 Aug 1999 rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: > > I still stand behind my statement that having gear is likely to be > > oversimplacating the danger/risk of being out there, sometimes. > > You're right. Gear alone isn't going to help you necessarily except for > that PFD. And none of it, even the PFD on you, should make you feel so > "safe" that you take risks that are beyond your skill and mindset to > deal with without panic. > > John Winters has often stated that the danger of equipment is that it > might embolden individuals when weighing risks. He is right. Can anyone out there give an example of someone who thinks the way James and Ralph and alledgedly John says they do? My experience has been quite the opposite; that people go out with too little or inappropriate gear and get into trouble. I have never encountered anyone who said "I've got the latest from Lotus; I'm invincible" OTOH, I did pluck a woman out of the Nantahala (Class II-III) river in North Carolina, USA) this morning who was wearing a fully unzipped PFD. Usually I don't bother rescuing rafter fallout, but this was about 100 yds downstream from a recent drowining location. I don't think for a moment that she thought she was invincible because of the PFD; she thought she was invincible, period. Evem assuming that these people exist, where does that take us? To recommend _less_ safety gear? Huh? Steve Cramer Test Scoring & Reporting Services Sometimes you never can University of Georgia always tell what you Athens, GA 30602-5593 least expect the most. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Steve Cramer wrote: > > On Sat, 7 Aug 1999 rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: > > > > I still stand behind my statement that having gear is likely to be > > > oversimplacating the danger/risk of being out there, sometimes. > > > > You're right. Gear alone isn't going to help you necessarily except for > > that PFD. And none of it, even the PFD on you, should make you feel so > > "safe" that you take risks that are beyond your skill and mindset to > > deal with without panic. > > > > John Winters has often stated that the danger of equipment is that it > > might embolden individuals when weighing risks. He is right. > > Can anyone out there give an example of someone who thinks the way James > and Ralph and alledgedly John says they do? My experience has been quite > the opposite; that people go out with too little or inappropriate gear and > get into trouble. I have never encountered anyone who said "I've got the > latest from Lotus; I'm invincible" Winters must not be subscribed at the moment or he would have responded to this. John's point is more subtle than your example. He references some literature/research on his Web site to support the view that each of us has a certain acceptable level of "perceived risk." Acquiring an additional piece of safety gear (a VHF, for example) means that we then *perceive* ourselves to be a little safer in the kinds of paddling we used to do, and up the ante a notch or so, to reach the level of "perceived risk" we had before. The above is a poor paraphrase of Winters' point, but I will raise my hand as one who sees himself operating as described. I agree with you, Steve, that uninformed newbies typically are massively underprepared gearwise and skillwise, and that the quality/quantity of gear has little connection with their need for rescue. Winters' point deals with *informed* paddlers. I guess that's us, more or less. I did not buy Winters' view until I had read the stuff on his Web site and thought about it for a few days. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sat, 14 Aug 1999, Dave Kruger wrote: > Steve Cramer wrote: > > > > My experience has been quite > > the opposite; that people go out with too little or inappropriate gear and > > get into trouble. I have never encountered anyone who said "I've got the > > latest from Lotus; I'm invincible" > > Winters must not be subscribed at the moment or he would have responded to > this. John's point is more subtle than your example. He references some > literature/research on his Web site to support the view that each of us has a > certain acceptable level of "perceived risk." Acquiring an additional piece > of safety gear (a VHF, for example) means that we then *perceive* ourselves to > be a little safer in the kinds of paddling we used to do, and up the ante a > notch or so, to reach the level of "perceived risk" we had before. > > I agree with you, Steve, that uninformed newbies typically are massively > underprepared gearwise and skillwise, and that the quality/quantity of gear > has little connection with their need for rescue. Winters' point deals with > *informed* paddlers. I guess that's us, more or less. > Perhaps there is a point here. Until I put my PFD on, I don't get on the water, so apparently my PFD changes my "perceived risk." And I'm not willing to paddle cold water in my cotton underware. I'm just having trouble seeing where this observation gets us. Is not the same thing true for skills? My perceived risk for Class IV is now moderate; when I started paddling WW I wouldn't venture beyond Class II. Of course, recent years have seen deaths of very competent paddlers on Class VI and V water that was clearly within their skill range, so we need to bear in mind that sh*t happens, and sometimes all the skill and gear and friends you've got won't be enough. Steve Cramer Test Scoring & Reporting Services Sometimes you never can University of Georgia always tell what you Athens, GA 30602-5593 least expect the most. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Kirk Olsen wrote: > > How about the clowns who go for a hike in the woods with all new hiking > gear and a cell phone so they can call to get rescued when they get > tired... This HAS happened in New England Remember the guy who called home while dying on Everest? Didn't do him much good, though, did it? Steve -- Test Scoring and Reporting Services University of Georgia Athens, GA 30602-5593 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Steve Cramer wrote: >Remember the guy who called home while dying on Everest? Didn't do him >much good, though, did it? >Steve Actually, Rob Hall was in radio communications with his base camp. They realized that the situation had gotten very bad, and they patched him through to his wife so that he could say his final goodbye. He was an experienced mountaineer and guide and knew the risks of an Everest climb. No, it didn't get him rescued, but I'm sure that conversation was priceless to his wife. I don't think the intention of that call was to say, "Honey, I'm in a bad way, could you please contact the Coast Guard for me?" Shawn 0 ____©/______ ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^\ ,/ /~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ Baker Brothers 0 Brews & Boats http://www.missoulaconcrete.com/shawn/ Shawn W. Baker mailto://baker_at_montana.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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