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From: Steve Holtzman <waterdoc_at_earthlink.net>
subject: [Paddlewise] Apology to Bayside Bob
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 11:24:39 -0700
Bob,

Let me start by saying I'm sorry to you. It's been a stressful time lately
and it appears that my sense of humor went paddling without me and didn't
return.

I'm very lucky in that my wife is into paddling (although not as seriously
as I) and has her own boat. The only problem we usually face when I want
some expensive accessory is,  I have to get TWO -  one for her.

Case in point; Several months ago I wanted a new paddle. Went and bought
one, with her present. I opted for fiberglass - It was quite a bit lighter
than my normal fiberglass paddle and I couldn't justfy another $120 extra
for a carbon version. The following week, we had to return to the paddling
store to get my wife the carbon version, because "the lighter weight would
be even better than a fiberglass version for my weak rotator cusp."
Therefore, a $200 paddle, actually cost me $520. (She's only been out
paddling 3 times with her new paddle (grin).

Anyway, I'm meandering here - please accept my apology - I did not want to
insinuate or imply anything or start any flame wars. I'll try and rescue my
sense of humor later today when I go out paddling. Hopefully it's wearing
it's PFD and I'll be able to find it floating on the ocean somewhere.

Steve Holtzman


 Bayside Bob wrote:

> This is a social problem that must be addressed.  In the SF Bay area
>
> > there is even a rowing club called the "Bay Blades".  You guessed
it.....
>
> > a rowing club for gay males.  And what do we married paddlers have?
>
> > Nothing, zip, nada.........How can this be corrected?
>

I replied:

> Unless you're going to sleep with your kayaking companions, what
difference
> does their sexual orientation make??
>
> If you like the people join - otherwise find a different group.
>
> Steve

Ralph Diaz wrote:
I apologize to BaysideBob for taking his point about Bay Blades as being
a stand-offish attitude toward gay people.  Most people seemed to have
seen his posting in the light he meant it (the woes of married paddlers
dealing with their SOs lack of interest in their paddling passion and
its expense in time and money), although one poster, Steve Holtzman
whose posting is reproduced above, saw it the way I did...as anti-gay.

I guess I am a bit sensitive on this because of that WaveLength
discussion of a few years ago, which I mentioned, that got pretty
heated.  To my recollection, it started with someone being concerned
about a camping trip in which two gay guys were sleeping in a tent and
doing what lovers do much to the consternation of others.  Then it went
to having kids along hearing this etc. and saying we shouldn't be
paddling with gays.  Quite a few postings were made on the subject,
including from me with pretty much what I said in my post to BaysideBob
this weekend about good friends of mine, who happen to be gay, who are
generous paddlers, contribute enormously to the good of our local
kayaking community and are great to be with in any setting because they
are so upbeat.

It was in light of that controversy back in WaveLength that I read more
into BaysideBob's comment than there was.  Again apologies.

I am now off to paddle along the Manhattan shoreline and hoping that the
gay sirens who sunbath nude at the end of the Greenwich Village piers
don't attempt to seduce me into crashing on the rocks.  :-)  Now I hope
nobody reads anything homophobic in that remark!!!

ralph diaz


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From: Elaine Harmon <eharmon_at_cs.miami.edu>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Apology to Bayside Bob
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 15:35:52 -0400 (EDT)
I've been reading this thread with some amusement and some dismay. Don't
spouses discuss these things like who gets to spend what share of
discretionary funds, and how much time out with "the boys" is reasonable?

On Sun, 19 Sep 1999, Steve Holtzman wrote:
....(snip)...
> Case in point; Several months ago I wanted a new paddle. Went and bought
> one, with her present. I opted for fiberglass - It was quite a bit lighter
> than my normal fiberglass paddle and I couldn't justfy another $120 extra
> for a carbon version. The following week, we had to return to the paddling
> store to get my wife the carbon version, because "the lighter weight would
> be even better than a fiberglass version for my weak rotator cusp."
> Therefore, a $200 paddle, actually cost me $520. (She's only been out
> paddling 3 times with her new paddle (grin).

Case in point: did her wanting a paddle as well come up when you were
getting yours? and if not, why not? Games?

> > > a rowing club for gay males.  And what do we married paddlers have?

Spouses, Bob. And I betcha some of those gays have SO's that they have to
hide their purchases from, too ;-) so don't envy them too much.

Elaine Harmon - eilidh_at_dc.seflin.org - eharmon_at_cs.miami.edu

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From: Steve Holtzman <waterdoc_at_earthlink.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Apology to Bayside Bob
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 12:55:32 -0700
Elaine





Actually, the subject did come up. I asked if she was happy with her paddle or
did she want to check out a new one. She looked at both the FG and carbon
paddles and said she really didn't see the need for a change (for herself)
but if I wanted a new one - fine, buy it.





The following week we went paddling together and she asked to try my new
paddle and fell in love with it. She then started thinking back to the words
of the salesman in the store who (noticing that I was leaning towards the FG
version) kept saying that they sold more of the carbon paddles to women
because they were not as strong as fiberglass and wouldn't hold up to a man's
use. No amount of talking on my part could convince her that in my opinion the
difference in strength between FG and carbon was not significant. To me the
weight savings as just not enough to justify the difference in cost.





My wife does have a weakened rotator cusp from an injury about a year and a
half ago and she's right about the weight difference being of importance to
her. As long as she feels or thinks that something is important than it is. I
don't think that I have the right to tell her what she can and can't think or
do for that matter. She's an equal partner in our marriage and if she wants
something, she doesn't have to clear it with me first. We both know how much
discretionary income there is and there had not been a problem with who spends
a portion of it.





I agree with you completely about how much time with the "boys" is a
reasonable amount. We have found that what works for us is not only my getting
time off to do some of the things that I enjoy but my wife also gets time
alone to do things she enjoys that I don't.





As you implied, in order for a relationship to work there has to be a lot of
communication. And if I implied otherwise, I wouldn't trade my wife or
marriage for anything. (except maybe another kayak -grin)


  I've been reading this thread with some amusement and some dismay. Don't


  spouses discuss these things like who gets to spend what share of


  discretionary funds, and how much time out with "the boys" is reasonable?





  Snip








  Case in point: did her wanting a paddle as well come up when you were


  getting yours? and if not, why not? Games?


  Elaine Harmon - eilidh_at_dc.seflin.org - eharmon_at_cs.miami.edu











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From: Elaine Harmon <eharmon_at_cs.miami.edu>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Apology to Bayside Bob
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 17:56:38 -0400 (EDT)
OK, Steve, and James Lofton: good for you!
Bayside Bob, hope you learn from those two. Or your wife does. Or
something. Oh well, never mind. e

Elaine Harmon - eilidh_at_dc.seflin.org - eharmon_at_cs.miami.edu

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From: Steve Holtzman <waterdoc_at_earthlink.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Apology to Bayside Bob
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 15:03:13 -0700
Elaine,





I sure did learn something --- that was.........Oh well, never mind.





Steve








  OK, Steve, and James Lofton: good for you!


  Bayside Bob, hope you learn from those two. Or your wife does. Or


  something. Oh well, never mind. e





  Elaine Harmon - eilidh_at_dc.seflin.org - eharmon_at_cs.miami.edu











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From: James Lofton <n5yyx_at_etsc.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Apology to Bayside Bob
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 12:49:17 -0700
Elaine Harmon wrote:
> 
> I've been reading this thread with some amusement and some dismay. Don't
> spouses discuss these things like who gets to spend what share of
> discretionary funds, and how much time out with "the boys" is 
>reasonable?
>



I think my first post was dropped due to the wrong heading(paddle wings), 
so here it is again. Sorry if it's a dupe.

I guess I'm one of the lucky ones. No, zero, nada problems with my 
kayaks,
or heading out for a few days. Infact, my folbot, aleut, was a supprise 
gift
from my wife, for our 20th. The kodiak folbot was also a gift from her
after I sold the 22' sailboat(which she hated).
She figures this is better than the harleys and hell raising days(cheaper
too).

I might mention that my 1st father-in-law told me on our wedding day, 
"insist on one night out with the boys every month, but don't waste it on 
the boys".:-)

James

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From: <Outfit3029_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Apology to Bayside Bob
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 17:33:08 EDT
 #1.  Flame war!  What's that supposed to mean!
 #2To quote Emily Littella, "Oh, well, never mind,"
 #3.I understand what was meant by flame war?  Emily Littella was a character 
created by the late Gilda Radner for SNL(Saturday Night Live).  The character 
were misunderstand the topic and go off on a tangent.  When her error was 
pointed out, she would graciously retreat with a simple, "Oh, well, never 
mind."
People who understood Bayside Bob, read line #1.
People who didn't understand Bayside Bob, read lines #1 and #2.
People who don't know who Emily Littella was, read lines #1, #2 and #3.
People who....  "Oh, well, never mind."
 Heterosexual Bruce _at_ Whole Earth 
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From: <Sandykayak_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Apology to Bayside Bob
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 07:55:05 EDT
In a message dated 9/19/99 4:01:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
waterdoc_at_earthlink.net writes:

<< in my opinion the  difference in strength between FG and carbon was not 
significant. To me the weight savings as just not enough to justify the 
difference in cost. >>

OTOH, haven't you ever thought, after enough time has passed to lessen the 
initial "pain" of expenditure, thought, "Damn, I should have spent the extra 
hundred bucks and got the top of the line." ???

In my case, I went to buy a new Swift paddle, fully intending to buy the same 
one that my neighbor's kid broke (ouch!), but they didn't have the blade size 
I wanted; however (drum roll) they did have the right paddle in carbon.  I 
went for the carbon.  

To be perfectly honest: I really don't feel that it's that much lighter than 
the regular
Swift I had, I don't like the black (we won't even go into the 
safety/visibility issue), and I now drool at the tropical pattern of this 
year's Swift ads.  

Sandy Kramer
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