I spoke with a dealer at the PT Symposium who was elated at their sales this past year, and all the new paddlers at the symposium showing interest in his boats. I said that was "too bad". "Excuse me", came the reply, "What do you mean by that?" I said that means more people on the water, more impact. Does anyone think there are too many people participating these days? Who's worse, recreational paddlers or guide outfits (there was an earlier post on this)? Should we all stop encouraging new growth, boycott symposiums, stop teaching? Any thoughts, or is this not a valid question in the kayaking community, yet? BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
G'day Doug - Maybe a valid question - but then which of us lucky ones will be the ones saying that the others should not be paddling? That is potentially pretty elitist. So you were out there first. So what? (I say this in a questioning manner, not sarcastically). Does this give you or I more right to paddle? I have been paddling 30 years. Does this give me the right to say that others can't/shouldn't/must go somewhere else because I was doing it before they were out of diapers? I don't think so. Maybe we all need to look at how, where, when and the way we paddle. It is certainly something that needs to be examined closely. We are fortunate here - lots of space - lots and lots - heaps and heaps. In other places, well, maybe not so. Yes, I am .... gasp .......one of those dreaded outfitters! I hope that we act responsibly and are good icons of how people should paddle and treat their environment. I trust we do and don't mind getting told when we don't have it quite right. Wayne Langmaid - yes who is .... gasp .......one of those dreaded outfitters. Ocean Planet Pty. Ltd. http://www.oceanplanet.com.au (look if you like, but only if) Australia ----- Original Message ----- From: Doug Lloyd <dlloyd_at_bc.sympatico.ca> To: <PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Sent: Friday, September 24, 1999 10:33 AM Subject: [Paddlewise] Saturation Point > I spoke with a dealer at the PT Symposium who was elated at their sales > this past year, and all the new paddlers at the symposium showing interest > in his boats. I said that was "too bad". > > "Excuse me", came the reply, "What do you mean by that?" > > I said that means more people on the water, more impact. Does anyone think > there are too many people participating these days? Who's worse, > recreational paddlers or guide outfits (there was an earlier post on this)? > Should we all stop encouraging new growth, boycott symposiums, stop > teaching? Any thoughts, or is this not a valid question in the kayaking > community, yet? > > BC'in Ya > Doug Lloyd > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** > ----- Original Message ----- From: Doug Lloyd <dlloyd_at_bc.sympatico.ca> To: <PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Sent: Friday, September 24, 1999 10:33 AM Subject: [Paddlewise] Saturation Point > I spoke with a dealer at the PT Symposium who was elated at their sales > this past year, and all the new paddlers at the symposium showing interest > in his boats. I said that was "too bad". > > "Excuse me", came the reply, "What do you mean by that?" > > I said that means more people on the water, more impact. Does anyone think > there are too many people participating these days? Who's worse, > recreational paddlers or guide outfits (there was an earlier post on this)? > Should we all stop encouraging new growth, boycott symposiums, stop > teaching? Any thoughts, or is this not a valid question in the kayaking > community, yet? > > BC'in Ya > Doug Lloyd > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> I spoke with a dealer at the PT Symposium who was elated at their sales > this past year, and all the new paddlers at the symposium showing interest > in his boats. hi Doug, earlier this year a symposium that was scheduled in the Washington DC area by (i think) TAPS was cancelled. i seem to remember that one reason was lack of dealers willing to participate. i have been told that in this area, dealers *pay* to exhibit, folks *pay* to attend, but the vendors are *not* allowed to sell boats. so i find it interesting that vedors sold kayaks at the PT Symposium. who sponsored that event? at what other Symposia are boat sales permitted, or not permitted. bye bye bliven *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Should we all stop encouraging new growth, boycott symposiums, stop > teaching? Any thoughts, or is this not a valid question in the kayaking > community, yet? Heh heh heh. Now that is trolling if I ever saw it 8^) Well, I guess you could look at it another way. If out of the next 10 (20, 50?) people who buy a kayak, one would have bought a power boat if (s)he would not have been introduced to kayaking, we're making progress in the right direction... I paddle a LOT in Northern Virginia. When I stop by the local kayak shop I always see kayaks being loaded or unloaded, and there are 4 or 5 other shops around the area I don't get a chance to visit. On the water though, I rarely see another kayak unless I attend one of the club outings. Where are these people going? On any given day I'll see several hundred power boats. Bring on the growth... Woody *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Robert Woodard wrote: > > I paddle a LOT in Northern Virginia. When I stop by the local kayak shop I > always see kayaks being loaded or unloaded, and there are 4 or 5 other shops > around the area I don't get a chance to visit. On the water though, I rarely > see another kayak unless I attend one of the club outings. Where are these > people going? > A kayaking friend once was asked by his boss how much his kayak cost. He was considering getting one because they look good on top of the SUV. They give the appearance of a youthful life style. Not that many of us are youths... rb *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug Lloyd wrote: > > I spoke with a dealer at the PT Symposium who was elated at their sales > this past year, and all the new paddlers at the symposium showing interest > in his boats. I said that was "too bad". > > "Excuse me", came the reply, "What do you mean by that?" > > I said that means more people on the water, more impact. Does anyone think > there are too many people participating these days? I don't think there are too many. But there are more and more unaware types coming into the sport. That worries me more than the numbers. As Bob Woodward mentioned: he sees people carting off boats from his local kayak shop but he hardly runs into anyone on the water. There seems to be a lot of space for all of us except in some particularly popular places. It isn't like whitewater where there are just so many places within x hours to paddle especially when the action is dependent on intermittent dam releases. So you will get many hundreds of WW paddlers in small stretch of a river at the dam release time. New York City for example has 529 miles of shoreline. Even if a hundred paddlers are on the water at the same time, you won't see many if any. Getting back to my point. While more people are getting educated through courses, conversations with knowledgeable paddlers and forums such as this, nyckayaker and cpakayaker among others, a lot are slipping through the cracks. How many people for example have been inspired to take up seakayaking after seeing the romantic photos of JFK Jr. paddling a hardshell or his Feathercraft K-1? How many would think about wearing a PFD or cold water gear when he obviously was not or would not wear either items? What about sales through large outdoor shops where sales personnel may be less than knowledgeable and tell them things like "If you stay near shore you won't need a wet suit or dry suit." I paddle with a healthy amount of fear when in my local waters of NY Harbor. But I can't tell you how many people I have seen take off around here, without PFD, without cold water gear, without the foggiest idea of what large traffic does, the meaning of different buoys and navigation lights, no knowledge of when the current will turn to an ebb or a flood, oblivious to potential weather change, carrying no lights although the sun will go down in about an hour, etc. BTW, Larry Bliven wrote: earlier this year a symposium that was scheduled in the Washington DC area by (i think) TAPS was cancelled. i seem to remember that one reason was lack of dealers willing to participate. i have been told that in this area, dealers *pay* to exhibit, folks *pay* to attend, but the vendors are *not* allowed to sell boats. I think that you were misinformed. Vendors can sell boats at symposiums. Speaking from my experience with some of the folding kayak manufacturers who have appeared at these shows, if the vendor is there, he or she gets the sale. Even on special orders. The manufacturer is there to help the vendor. With larger manufacturers, they may be there without the dealers and so the dealer doesn't get the sale. But, certainly, if the dealer is paying to be at the show (which he would have to in order to exhibit), he gets the sale. That was certainly the case with the same show in Delaware in 1998. Trouble was there that hardly any customers showed up period. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In my area, northern Ontario, land use is quite an issue. In short, unless a serious effort is made, land gets logged over and water gets dammed up. Road access brings development of various types. It takes a great deal of work by a great many people to protect wilderness. Where do we find these people? Among others, we draw on outdoor recreation oriented groups -- hikers, birders, paddlers, climbers, etc. I submit that there is a direct correlation between interest in paddling and interest in wilderness protection. Obviously not all paddlers are environmentalists, but many are. More importantly, many people become environmentalists after their awareness of environmental issues has been raised through their participation in paddling. As pertains to sea kayaking in particular, let's take a look at Lake Superior in the Thunder Bay, Nipigon, Rossport, Terrace Bay shoreline area. Most of it is pristine, and it is an international destination for sea kayakers. Much of it is being designated as a National Marine Conservation Area. Without paddler involvement in the designation process, this probably would not have happened at all, and certainly would not have encompassed as great an area as is expected to be covered. Yes, this will lead to even more paddlers, opening up the problem of the area being loved to death, but this is a far easier problem to deal with than the pressing problem of resource extraction and development. It is relatively easy to institute a permit system when compared against stopping the logging industry or the mining industry. We live in an era of extinction -- right up there along with the top half dozen historic extinctions, including the Cretaceous, Permian, Ordovician, Devonian, Triassic, and Pleistocene. The overall extinction rate is somewhere about a hundred times over background, and in specific areas (e.g. invertebrates in tropical rainforests) the rate is about a thousand times over background. Protecting significantly sized tracts of land, and corridors between these tracts, will help slow the extinction rate. Doing this requires public recognition of the problem, and public participation in the solutions. How do we educate people as to these problems and then motivate them to act? One way, among many, is through participation in paddling. Think of paddling as an entry point into environmental awareness and activity. The more people who flow through entry points into the world of environmental awareness and activity, the better chance we have in slowing the extinction rate. Yes, it is theoretically possible for paddlers to love an area to death, but before backing off on the promotion of paddlesports, lets take a cold hard look at both where the most devastating environmental impacts are coming from and where the solutions are coming from. Yes, whale watching in the St. Lawrence has been associated with negative impacts on the whales, but this is trivial compared to what pollution in the seaway has done to the whale populations, and public interest in protecting these whales has gone a long way toward reducing levels of pollution. Yes, paddling has had a negative effect on parts of the Colorado in the Grand Canyon, but without public activism the canyon was scheduled to have been dammed over. Yes, hiking in Yellowstone has slightly affected Grizzly populations, but the problem is insignificant when compared to the long term impact due to lack of corridors outside the park, and only public interest will help change this. And back here in northern Ontario? Yes, sea kayakers can have a negative impact on caribou breeding grounds (e.g. islands at the south end of Pukaskwa, a national park on the north shore of Superior just to the east of the proposed National Marine Conservation Area). Yes, hikers and shoreline campers can have an impact on cougar populations (which may be extinct locally, though there are occasional unconfirmed sightings). But these impacts are easily dealt with through limiting access where necessary. More importantly, these impacts are trivial compared to the impact of logging on a massive scale over millions of hectares. If promoting paddling can help people become aware of and involved in helping the environment, then let's keep on promoting. Let's promote paddling hand in hand with promoting the environment. Let's educate new paddlers as to the impact they are making in their activities, and then broaden this out to education on the primary impacts on species isolation and extinction, namely massive land use changes. As environmentalists, paddling offers a powerful tool for us to capture people's hearts and minds. Let's not miss the boat. Cheers, Richard Culpeper Environment North Doug Lloyd wrote: > I spoke with a dealer at the PT Symposium who was elated at their sales > this past year, and all the new paddlers at the symposium showing interest > in his boats. I said that was "too bad". > > "Excuse me", came the reply, "What do you mean by that?" > > I said that means more people on the water, more impact. Does anyone think > there are too many people participating these days? Who's worse, > recreational paddlers or guide outfits (there was an earlier post on this)? > Should we all stop encouraging new growth, boycott symposiums, stop > teaching? Any thoughts, or is this not a valid question in the kayaking > community, yet? > > BC'in Ya > Doug Lloyd > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
It's a good thing. They're gonna buy something to get on the water. Could be jet-skis. ----- Original Message ----- From: Doug Lloyd <dlloyd_at_bc.sympatico.ca> To: <PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Sent: Thursday, September 23, 1999 5:33 PM Subject: [Paddlewise] Saturation Point > I spoke with a dealer at the PT Symposium who was elated at their sales > this past year, and all the new paddlers at the symposium showing interest > in his boats. I said that was "too bad". > > "Excuse me", came the reply, "What do you mean by that?" > > I said that means more people on the water, more impact. Does anyone think > there are too many people participating these days? Who's worse, > recreational paddlers or guide outfits (there was an earlier post on this)? > Should we all stop encouraging new growth, boycott symposiums, stop > teaching? Any thoughts, or is this not a valid question in the kayaking > community, yet? > > BC'in Ya > Doug Lloyd > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 05:33 PM 9/23/99 -0700, Doug Lloyd wrote: >I spoke with a dealer at the PT Symposium who was elated at their sales >this past year, and all the new paddlers at the symposium showing interest >in his boats. I said that was "too bad". > >"Excuse me", came the reply, "What do you mean by that?" > >I said that means more people on the water, more impact. Does anyone think >there are too many people participating these days? Who's worse, >recreational paddlers or guide outfits (there was an earlier post on this)? >Should we all stop encouraging new growth, boycott symposiums, stop >teaching? Any thoughts, or is this not a valid question in the kayaking >community, yet? Doug, I'm posting this on Paddlewise as well as e-mailing you directly, as I have been having a lot of problems posting on Paddlewise -- my e-mail server doesn't get along with theirs, and I haven't figured out who to read off, yet. If it doesn't show up there, please feel free to copy anything in this. You have a very valid point. I know that I've at times found myself thinking, "Wow, if this gets popular, I'm going to have to find something else to do." While I'm much more of a recreational paddler than being in your league, I still find myself concerned with overuse of resources. Now, in my neck of the woods, I'm sure that things are different than in yours. In the great lakes and inland waters where I hang out, kayaking is only starting to take hold. But, you know what? I'd much rather see a kayak out on the water, being rather more intimate with nature, than to hear the buzz of jet skis or bass boats, of which we seem to have far too many. I have spent many years working on developing the North Country National Scenic Trail -- a hiking trail that runs from Central North Dakota to Upstate New York. A few years ago, we started to see these strange things called mountain bikes appearing on the trails. The first few riders weren't a problem; they had some respect for the resource. Then the second wave hit, the people for whom the trail wasn't a way into the back country, but a thing to conquer. And, they tore hell out of several parts of the trail. The bikes on the NCNST are still a big, hot issue. You get the feeling that these bozos hop off their bikes and get onto their jet skis and tear hell out of the lakes. The upside to kayaking is that it involves work. All that a jetski really requires is knowing how to start it and where the go-lever is. There are bozos out there on those things that have no idea of the simplest rules of the road, safety issues, no comprehension of resource damage, no courtesy or respect for others -- just the knowledge that if you twist the throttle you get a heckuva ride. Cheap thrills. To go somewhere or see something in a kayak involves the expenditure of effort. Therefore, there's a lid on how far that the sport will grow. Kayaks do, by their nature, teach of the world around them. Those that are not willing to learn won't be much in the way of users. But, there will be those that will want to progress in their skills, to go beyond using a kayak as a mere beachfront playboat, and they should have the means available to improve their skills, and perhaps hone their appreciation of the resource at the same time. Several years ago, I attended a seminar on interpreting long-distance trails, put on by the National Park Service Harpers Ferry Center. It was one of the most intense weeks that I can recall -- they really packed us full. One thing that I do remember, more than most, was a speaker who said, "We must admit to the necessity of hardening the front country." He noted that 90 percent of the use of hiking trails is within the first quarter mile of the trailhead. Yes, recreational use will grow. We will see more recreational use out there -- but much of it will be in the "front country". In the back country -- well, that's a little different. You have to figure that a person that will paddle a kayak far enough into the quiet places will have at least a degree of appreciation of them. Guided tours do make me a little uneasy in this respect. I just got back from a week's tour of Isle Royale. I spent a heck of a lot of time planning and training for this trip, working on skills, researching and practicing. It was a heck of a good trip; we had a great time. The four of us that went on the trip went on our own, made our own plans, worked out our own arrangements. I find myself a little resentful of someone who would do a similar trip as a guided tour, having essentially no knowledge of kayaking, wilderness travel and living, or the resource, but having a wallet thick enough to pay to have their hand held and their decisions made for them. Which is not to say that I'll never take a guided tour, since I can envision situations where the local knowledge, availability of equipment, or whatever, would take priority over trying to set a trip up on my own. But, you can believe that I'll know how to handle the kayak before I get there, and will have learned everything I can about the trip before I leave. But many people aren't like that; they'd rather fork over the money and have their thinking and and decision making and scutwork done for them. Access to wilderness is a touchy subject, and likely to get worse. I find myself resenting the fact that the only way that I could ever take a trip down the Grand Canyon, for example, is by forking over a couple of grand to a commercial outfit. In theory, I could get in the fifteen year line for the private permit, but I'm of an age where the odds are about fifty-fifty that I won't make it another fifteen years, or if I do won't be in much shape to enjoy such a trip. Yet, the demand will grow in that time as the population grows, and there's only so much resource in the first place. Too many people, in other words, and that's a situation that will only get worse. I can't bring myself to say, "I'm aboard, pull up the ladder." But, I can see the time coming, in some areas, where the ladder is going to get pulled up whether we like it or not. Sad, but there it is. -- Wes Boyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
BaysideBob wrote: <SNIPPED> > Assuming there is a sea-kayak "explosion" there are two options: > Cope, or quit. > > Cope by going out on week-days, early mornings or by the moon. Go a little > further. I'll see a dozen boats when I put in and very few more than a mile > away. Appreciate the people who are out there. They want to enjoy the same > things I do, share, teach, encourage, set an example. The real destruction > of the water is not from kayakers, it's from people who have never been on > the water, have no appreciation of it and dump oil down the storm drain. > The more people who appreciate the water, the more sensitive their off the > water behavior. > > Or quit. Be a grumpy old man and quit. Complain about increasing > population, which you can't do much about. Don't encourage more people to > appreciate the water. Don't help them. Let them spend their money on new > computers and motor vehicles. Then when they, as a society, pursue courses > which trash the waters and fill the bays, you can claim credit through your > inaction. I agree wholeheartedly with BaysideBob especially in the part of his post that I snipped in which he stresses that there may not really be a seakayaking _explosion_. There is room galore for everyone who now owns a sea kayak to all go out this very day and they will occupy only an infinitesimal amount of the desirable paddling waters. Sure, some hot spots would have quite a few boats but even here they will not be butting bows and sterns against each other. And, meanwhile, thousands of miles of other choice spots will have the paddlers so spread out that they may never even see each other beyond a flick of sun ray on paddle blade off some distance away. And anyway, I get a kick out of seeing lots of people on the water. It is one of the reasons I like being down at the Downtown Boathouse where we put some 6,000 people on the water last year and are probably headed to 7,000 or so in 1999. Nothing compares to the delight on people's faces when they experience that first half hour of watery movement at the city's edge in a boat propelled by their own muscle power bobbing over wakes in a harbor and river in renewal. Some of those 6,000 get the bug, buy their own kayaks and join the ranks of local paddlers who can never crowd the thousands of miles of paddleable water within a hour of the Big Apple. Most don't but the memory they take with them is priceless and leaves them in kinship with us in support of recapturing our waterfronts and waters. I know it is the human instinct for some of us to want to horde, to want to maintain some exclusivity over a domain they discovered by themselves years ago. But there is so much of that domain and sharing it won't take anything away. Maybe some places do crowd up but do as BaysideBob suggests...go at other times, go further out. Instead of resenting the newcomers, embrace them, help them skill up and smarten up to enjoy the waters as you have. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Well said Ralph!!! If it wasn't for somebody introducing and welcoming each of us into the sport, there would be no kayaking. (Snip)... <I know it is the human instinct for some of us to want to horde, to want <to maintain some exclusivity over a domain they discovered by themselves <years ago. But there is so much of that domain and sharing it won't <take anything away. Maybe some places do crowd up but do as BaysideBob <suggests...go at other times, go further out. Instead of resenting the <newcomers, embrace them, help them skill up and smarten up to enjoy the <waters as you have. <ralph diaz *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Steve Holtzman wrote: > > ... If it wasn't for somebody introducing and welcoming each > of us into the sport, there would be no kayaking. First a relatively minor point. If you are suggesting that there would be no kayaking without the sort of active support structure that currently exists, this is simply not true. There would be fewer paddlers, but believe it or not some folks started paddling without assistance from other paddlers, instructors, or instructional videos or books. Real oldtimers had to design and make their own boats and equipment (both for whitewater and sea kayaking) with only vague ideas borrowed from earlier boat builders. And then they had to develop techniques for paddling them. This did not stop them from becoming paddlers. Of course from there things began to take off as they encouraged others, shared their ideas, etc. This serves to reinforce the point that the very rapid growth in the sport is due in large part to the efforts of instructors, tour operators, paddling clubs, and others who have made it easy for so many to enter the sport. Without these support activities it would require more initiative to enter the sport. If it required more initiative there would be still be paddlers--just far fewer of them. As for the argument advanced by some that growth in the sport simply reflects population growth, this strikes me as a bizarre notion. The rate of growth in the sport has greatly exceeded the rate of growth in the general population. Indeed, I would be thrilled if wilderness use had increased at only *twice* the rate of the general population. Unfortunately it has increased at a much faster rate, and the reason for this is in part the efforts of those who have made it relatively easy. Please do not misunderstand me--neither I nor anyone else whose post I have read is suggesting that new folks do not have the right to enter the sport. Of course they do! This is not the issue. The question is whether we should take steps to *actively encourage* that growth, particularly when many of us feel that we are at or beyond the "saturation point". As for the role of guidebooks (and guides), my experiences with backpacking, river paddling, and sea kayaking all lead me to believe that they significantly increase use of an area. I started bacpacking as a teenager in the 70s. I recall when backpacking started to take off in the Sierra and new or expanded guidebooks were issued. Backcountry routes on which we could spend a week without seeing anyone were suddenly crowded once a guidebook listed the route. Some cross country routes (without trails but with "ducks" and cairns) soon developed trails simply from the constant trampling. Those routes that were not listed in the guidebook remained pristine--until a new or expanded guidebook included the route, and then BAM!, say "goodbye" to the solitude and "hello" to the crowds. I used to buy guidebooks to figure out where not to go. Most people simply would not venture out on a route for which there was no guidebook. I have seen the same thing with northern rivers. Rivers that were once empty of travelers start to experience the effects of increased use (campfire rings, garbage, excrement, etc.) as soon as they get covered in a guidebook or a prominent magazine. The same thing is happening on rivers in Washington state. One of my favorite stretches of river is not currently covered in any guidebook. Over the course of a paddling season I may run it two dozen times and see other paddlers once or twice per season. Similar runs on nearby rivers that are not as nice but are included in guidebooks are crowded (at least by western standards--still nothing like the Natahalla). I was dismayed when Bennett introduced a more comprehensive guide to Washington rivers last year. My heart was pounding as I opened the book. Fortunately Bennett has still missed this run! But he is zeroing in on it. That is bad news for me--and for the Harlequin ducks who breed there at times. I get off and stay off the river for a period of time when I see chicks, because the presence of paddlers can cause increased mortality among the chicks as they flee and get separated in the fast current. Once others are encouraged to use this stretch of the river these and other impacts will increase. It cannot take heavy use without consequences. What makes me think that I have a right to use the river, and that others do not? I do NOT think this. I am simply pointing out that there *is* a saturation point, and that WE can cause this to be exceeded. I have no more right to use the river than anyone else. But if I introduce others to this stretch of river--thereby causing use to increase--there will be significant consequences. I do not think that it is merely selfish to keep quiet and to discourage growth of the sport. Wilderness *is* being loved to death. Those who actively encourage additional use are part of the problem. To paraphrase Matt, once use of a wild area increases significantly we are screwed, whether we allow unchecked growth or whether we start to regulate use. The latter is the lesser of the two evils, but the best alternative is not to encourage increased use in the first place. Again, no one is talking about "banning" new entrants into the sport, or whether they have a "right" to join us. That simply misses the point. If paddling or wilderness travel required more initiative, fewer people would do it and there would be less pressure on sensitive areas. Most people who have a love of wilderness do not use it actively, but rather appreciate it from afar. As active use rises, however, wilderness is threatened. People who make it easier for others to visit sensitive areas are having the effect of degrading these areas. They have a right to do this, but that does not make it a wise course of action. Dan Hagen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dan Hagen wrote: [megasnip] > I do not think that it is merely selfish to keep quiet and to discourage > growth of the sport. Wilderness *is* being loved to death. Those who > actively encourage additional use are part of the problem. To paraphrase > Matt, once use of a wild area increases significantly we are screwed, > whether we allow unchecked growth or whether we start to regulate use. > The latter is the lesser of the two evils, but the best alternative is > not to encourage increased use in the first place. Again, no one is > talking about "banning" new entrants into the sport, or whether they > have a "right" to join us. That simply misses the point. If paddling or > wilderness travel required more initiative, fewer people would do it and > there would be less pressure on sensitive areas. Most people who have a > love of wilderness do not use it actively, but rather appreciate it from > afar. As active use rises, however, wilderness is threatened. People > who make it easier for others to visit sensitive areas are having the > effect of degrading these areas. They have a right to do this, but that > does not make it a wise course of action. I wish I'd written that, Hagen. Your contribution and Culpeper's (under "Urban Paddler") solidly capture the issues re: impact on wild areas of the choices we collectively make. For the record, I'm with Dan and Richard re: new paddlers. Not trying to discourage anybody new. In fact, I enjoy helping folks get going, for the vicarious thrill it gives me. Just not actively promoting paddling *in wild areas.* [Yes, I see some inconsistency there. Anyway, who's completely consistent? <g>] It occurs to me there are a couple kinda-distinct sociological groups on this list. An oversimplified categorization: 1. People who mainly paddle near population centers. 2. People who mainly paddle a long ways from population centers. I bet the way we feel about the issues Dan and Richard have raised is a strong function of whether we fit into either the first group or the second one. For the record, I enjoy paddling in/near urban centers, but prefer paddling in places which are distant from population centers. The interplay between marine environments and the use humans make of them fascinates me. However, what the critters do with aquatic (and marine) habitats fascinates me more. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Dan Hagen wrote: > > [megasnip] > > I do not think that it is merely selfish to keep quiet and to discourage > > growth of the sport. Wilderness *is* being loved to death. Those who > > actively encourage additional use are part of the problem. To paraphrase > > Matt, once use of a wild area increases significantly we are screwed, > > whether we allow unchecked growth or whether we start to regulate use. > > The latter is the lesser of the two evils, but the best alternative is > > not to encourage increased use in the first place. Again, no one is > > talking about "banning" new entrants into the sport, or whether they > > have a "right" to join us. That simply misses the point. If paddling or > > wilderness travel required more initiative, fewer people would do it and > > there would be less pressure on sensitive areas. Most people who have a > > love of wilderness do not use it actively, but rather appreciate it from > > afar. As active use rises, however, wilderness is threatened. People > > who make it easier for others to visit sensitive areas are having the > > effect of degrading these areas. They have a right to do this, but that > > does not make it a wise course of action. Well said. Since everyone has equal right to go into the wilderness the only way to keep people out is to keep it remote. Remoteness, both physical and lack of information, is what kept people away in the past and is what will keep people away in the future. (that an lousy weather or otherwise adverse conditions.) So, aside from regulation, our best hope is to restrict development. That's hard. How do you get individuals to not start guide services? Not offer water taxi service? Not run ferrys? Not write guide books and make maps of areas? Not write stories about their trips and publish on the web or in magazines? We can't regulate that either. Tom Unger Seattle. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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