I was out yesterday paddling hard and burning muscle and got to thinking about a thread a while back about frequent fueling. It struck me as a really bad evolutionary path to burn muscle before fat. Akin to burning your cloths to keep warm. Does this muscle-burning occur at moderate levels of exertion, or just extreme levels? I could see burning muscle running from a sabretooth, but not plodding along looking for food. Any estimates of caloric expense in paddling say, 200 pounds at 4 mph? I had a big breakfast. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
|Any estimates of caloric expense in paddling say, 200 pounds |at 4 mph? I had a big breakfast. I think that Atlantic Coastal Kayaking had an article about calories a couple years a go. I guestimated from the article that paddling my 190 pounds at 5mph burned 500 calories per hour. Guestimating on a guestimate I think 4mph would be in the 400 calories per hour range. I've wanted to get a heart rate monitor and see what that would show when I was out paddling. Some of the monitors record calories burned during excercise and I'm very curious how it would map out at different speeds. But having to rebuild a transmission put the heart rate monitor on hold. Course when I was told how much the tranny was going to cost I think my heart rate was on hold..... 8-) One of the things I have noticed when using my gym's, dreadmill errr, treadmill, is that the amount of calories expended is NOT equal to the effort put into the excercise. Running a 10 minute mile is about 150 calories per hour for me. Running 7 minute miles is much more painful and is not rewarded with a number of calories even close to the anquish I endure! 8-) Hope this helps.... Dan McCarty *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
dmccarty_at_us.ibm.com wrote: > One of the things I have noticed when using my gym's, dreadmill errr, treadmill, > is that the amount of calories expended is NOT equal to the effort put into the > excercise. Running a 10 minute mile is about 150 calories per hour for me. > Running 7 minute miles is much more painful and is not rewarded with a number of > calories even close to the anquish I endure! 8-) This is the unfortunate (and not often understood or believed) fact that humans are almost equally efficient at walking or running at any speed. The calories only differ based on distance travelled, not speed travelled. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I'm no expert but it is my understanding that you would only burn muscle if you in a state of low blood sugar for a long period of time. It seems that in order to burn fat you must have some carbo's to tag along, hence the necessary blood sugar level. It's not necessary to eat solid foods for this to work, a sports drink or diluted juice will do just fine. Too concentrated of a formula will require digestion - which is time consuming and diverts bloodflow away from the oxygen carrying task. For endurance events many athletes use a diluted carbo drink that allows them to burn fat for fuel rather than just precious glycogen, which is basically the fuel stored in the muscle. These athletes need to be careful to remain below the anaerobic threshold where the body relies entirely on the glycogen stores (and less on oxygen and fat) and uses them up quickly. It would seem logical to me you might burn the muscle itself once the glycogen levels are gone. But then again it is very difficult to remain above the anaerobic threshold for a long period of time. As far as calories burned it is difficult to burn more than 1000 calories / hour with say cycling or running. I know padding uses many muscles, but I don't know if they are equal to the mass of the glutes and quads (the more muscle mass used the more calories burned). -----Original Message----- From: E. Sullivan [mailto:sullivaned_at_pop.mts.kpnw.org] Sent: Thursday, September 02, 1999 12:52 PM To: p w Subject: [Paddlewise] Kayak fueling I was out yesterday paddling hard and burning muscle and got to thinking about a thread a while back about frequent fueling. It struck me as a really bad evolutionary path to burn muscle before fat. Akin to burning your cloths to keep warm. Does this muscle-burning occur at moderate levels of exertion, or just extreme levels? I could see burning muscle running from a sabretooth, but not plodding along looking for food. Any estimates of caloric expense in paddling say, 200 pounds at 4 mph? I had a big breakfast. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> I was out yesterday paddling hard and burning muscle Are you sure this is what you mean? You have to be quite emaciated before you'll consume muscle tissue for energy. Or do you mean burning glycogen in the muscle? Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, 2 Sep 1999, Joe Brzoza wrote: > I'm no expert but it is my understanding that you would only burn muscle if > you in a state of low blood sugar for a long period of time. It seems that > in order to burn fat you must have some carbo's to tag along, hence the > necessary blood sugar level. It's not necessary to eat solid foods for this > to work, a sports drink or diluted juice will do just fine. I've been hoping one of the others would take this up. It takes a bit of time for the right enzymes to be produced in quantity, but after that, metabolism of fat is quite efficient. Many people fast completely for 2-3 weeks at a time with no ill effects (I myself have gone for a week or more on zero calorie intake without any particular discomfort). The body will not burn its own muscle to any significant extent, especially if the muscles stay in use, until available fat resources are depleted. I assume that liver glycogen is depleted early in a fast, but is restored at a safe but lower level as the body switches over to fat metabolism. > For endurance events many athletes use a diluted carbo drink that allows > them to burn fat for fuel rather than just precious glycogen, which is > basically the fuel stored in the muscle. I believe it is a matter of differences in timing of metabolic processes. The body would "rather" use available nutrients in the blood stream, especially carbs, first. Fats are burned by a much less direct process. If it has its fat-burning systems up and running, it can then use blood lipids, but if not (which is usual), it must resort to using the liver's glycogen stores to put more carbs into the blood stream. I would think it very unusual for any athlete to permit his/her blood to be depleted of glucose significantly. Elaine Harmon - eilidh_at_dc.seflin.org - eharmon_at_cs.miami.edu *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: dmccarty_at_us.ibm.com <dmccarty_at_us.ibm.com> >I think that Atlantic Coastal Kayaking had an article about calories a couple >years a go. I guestimated from the article that paddling my 190 pounds at 5mph >burned 500 calories per hour. Guestimating on a guestimate I think 4mph would >be in the 400 calories per hour range. > If your guestimate for 5mph is correct, 4 mph would be more like 250 to 300 calories per hour (remember you have traveled only 4/5ths as far during that hour though so you don't save as much energy as it might seem). My rough rule of thumb is: the drag nearly doubles for each knot increase in paddling speed. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 9/2/99 11:00:20 AM Pacific Daylight Time, dmccarty_at_us.ibm.com writes: << I've wanted to get a heart rate monitor and see what that would show when I was out paddling. >> I have used a heart rate monitor paddling. It is hard to get the rate up to an aerobic threshold. At normal cruising speed is it embarrassingly low (95 to 105). A sea kayak is a vary efficient at moving though the water. To get the rate up it helps to have wind or current to paddle against. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I also have used a heart rate monitor kayaking and rowing and running and bicycling. The problem with kayaking is the amount of muscle mass involved. Not nearly as much as running or cycling and those are the activities that are used as benchmarks for what is "aerobic". One will NEVER be able to maintain the same heart rate for the same length of time as activities using the legs. Just not enough mass involved with the arms-shoulders. They're smaller, use less oxygen, have a smaller blood supply and the lactic acid builds up and they go anaerobic at the same heart-rate where the legs could go all day. The other problem is using speed as a measurement. Hull speed is the square root of the length at waterline times 1.4 for knots. A couple feet of boat length makes a difference for athletes in a race, not so much for the rest of us. Hull speed is a wall, period. Some folks claim to exceed it, but only for periods of seconds. Runners don't have that problem. Kayaking is exercise. It is aerobic. It is low-impact. It's often spiritual. It is not running or stair-climbing. Using typical fitness magazine methods of measuring it are frustrating to useless. ----- Original Message ----- From: <Tomckayak_at_aol.com> To: <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Sent: Thursday, September 02, 1999 7:44 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Kayak fueling > In a message dated 9/2/99 11:00:20 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > dmccarty_at_us.ibm.com writes: > > << I've wanted to get a heart rate monitor and see what that would show when > I was > out paddling. >> > I have used a heart rate monitor paddling. It is hard to get the rate up to > an aerobic threshold. At normal cruising speed is it embarrassingly low (95 > to 105). A sea kayak is a vary efficient at moving though the water. To get > the rate up it helps to have wind or current to paddle against. > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I wonder what a heart monitor shows when that unexpected wave or wind gust heels you over 50 degrees. Perhaps a sphincter meter would be more indicitive. > In a message dated 9/2/99 11:00:20 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > dmccarty_at_us.ibm.com writes: > . I've wanted to get a heart rate monitor and see what that would show when I was out paddling. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: BaysideBob <vaughan_at_jps.net> >I also have used a heart rate monitor kayaking >and rowing and running and bicycling. > >The problem with kayaking is the amount of >muscle mass involved. Not nearly as much as >running or cycling and those are the activities >that are used as benchmarks for what is >"aerobic". One will NEVER be able to maintain >the same heart rate for the same length of time >as activities using the legs. Just not enough >mass involved with the arms-shoulders. They're >smaller, use less oxygen, have a smaller blood >supply and the lactic acid builds up and they >go anaerobic at the same heart-rate where the >legs could go all day. Let me guess, you use a rudder. I'm using my legs, back and torso a lot when I'm paddling hard (sort of stair stepping on the footpedals) and if racing I find myself breathing real hard, overheating and sweating so bad it drools down into and hurts my eyes (unless I'm wearing a headband). I could sprint all out for a minute or two and be completely exhausted. I don't have a heart rate monitor but it sure feels like I am working as hard as when I am running. > >The other problem is using speed as a measurement. >Hull speed is the square root of the length at waterline >times 1.4 for knots. A couple feet of boat length makes >a difference for athletes in a race, not so much for >the rest of us. Hull speed is a wall, period. Some >folks claim to exceed it, but only for periods of seconds. >Runners don't have that problem. I don't understand your point. While it may not accomplish much in the way of extra speed pushing hard against hull speed is much like running up a steep hill, it can burn up a lot of energy in a short time if you want to. You just don't get much back in terms of extra speed for all your extra effort. With the right graph you could measure effort by your speed. Crudely, effort doubles for each knot of speed increase although there is some variations due to hull designs. >Kayaking is exercise. It is aerobic. Not always >It is low-impact. >It's often spiritual. It is not running or stair-climbing. No it is not, but I think you can work just as hard at it if you want too (if that's what turns you on). >Using typical fitness magazine methods of measuring >it are frustrating to useless. Why, what are the problems? It is my understanding (but I'm no expert here) that you can measure calories burned by oxygen uptake and for any individual, heart rate variations will provide an indicator of relative oxygen use. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
You're right, your paddling muscles aren't as big as the leg muscles. Doing intervals at maximum effort in my kayak I can get up to about 165 bpm at the most, for just a few minutes, and never go anaerobic. But in a recent road race I was amazed that my monitor was pegged at over 180 bpm the entire time. Tom *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 9/2/99 9:44:46 PM Pacific Daylight Time, whiterabbit_at_empowering.com writes: << I wonder what a heart monitor shows when that unexpected wave or wind gust heels you over 50 degrees. Perhaps a sphincter meter would be more indicitive. >> Funny you should mention that. I worn a Heart rate monitor for one of the early Tsunami Ranger races in Half-moon bay CA. The HRM was set to beep if my rate went over 150. The #$&% thing was beeping from the moment I hit the surf to the end of the race. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
|If your guestimate for 5mph is correct, 4 mph would be more like 250 to 300 |calories per hour (remember you have traveled only 4/5ths as far during that |hour though so you don't save as much energy as it might seem). My rough |rule of thumb is: the drag nearly doubles for each knot increase in paddling |speed. My guestimates could be way off. The article did not quite match my wieght or speed so I had to guess. At the time I would paddle for an hour at 5mph then rest for 5 minutes or so and repeat until I had gone 20 miles or so. Two+ hours from the put it and then back. The first two hours would be a little over 5mph and then decrease to about 4.6-.8 or so at the last hour. This was/is on a lake that is generally calm except for the waves generated by wakes. Amazing how much of the chop is wake generated. The amount of effort, percieved that is, would say I was burning 500 calories or so per hour. I'm having to compare this to the what the dreadmill tells me so they are all guestimates. After three hours I'm very tired. The fourth is really dragging. Given the 500 number that meant I would burn 2000 calories or so in the four hours. One of my dreadmill workouts is to burn off 1000 calories. I can walk, run, crawl, etc, but I will burn 1000 calories. Usually it takes 65 minutes to do this "comfortably." I have done it in 58 minutes. That was not comfortable. 8-) I'm comparing the 500/hour with the dreadmill 1000/hour and the perceived effort seems to be about right. I'm comparing my breathing rate/labor from running or wallking vs this kind of paddling effort and it certainly seems to put me in the 500 calorie/hour range. But I could be wrong. I really would like to know. Does a real measurement require being hooked up to a lab machine to measure effort? Do we have any excercise specialists on the list? Later... Dan McCarty *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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