Any thoughts on when you need a wet suit vs. a dry suit. Lake Michigan is now 53 degrees and dropping rapidly. I need to buy a wet suit and/or dry suit and am curious what the guidelines are. Any recommendations for brand/type? Tom *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I can only say that Navy regs are that between 50-60 water temp dry suits are optional, but below 50 degrees when flying we are required to wear dry suits. Even at that useful conscious time in 50 degree water w/o protection is less than 20 minutes on average. I have both a wet and dry suit, and when it hits 50 degrees, I swap wet for dry. remember, dry suits also require a layer of insulating clothes under them such as polypro or wool long johns. Without the insulation, the dry suit simply doesn't provide enough cold protection. Good luck, and stay dry! R/ Sluf "Thomas M. Heineman" wrote: > Any thoughts on when you need a wet suit vs. a dry suit. Lake Michigan > is now 53 degrees and dropping rapidly. > > I need to buy a wet suit and/or dry suit and am curious what the > guidelines are. > > Any recommendations for brand/type? > > Tom > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not > to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"Thomas M. Heineman" wrote: > > Any thoughts on when you need a wet suit vs. a dry suit. Lake Michigan > is now 53 degrees and dropping rapidly. > > I need to buy a wet suit and/or dry suit and am curious what the > guidelines are. > I've worn both wet and dry suits and definitely prefer the dry suit in cold conditions. I keep the wet suit (farmer john) for marginal conditions in the summer and the dry suit for the other three seasons. The problem with the wet suit is that if you go in, you get wet! In cold water this is unpleasant at least (like the time I went through ice while scrambling over the rafted ice sheets from the water to the shore on Jan 1 a couple of years ago - that's when I resolved to get a dry suit). On the plus side, wet suits are relatively cheap and easy to maintain. Dry suits keep you dry. They don't insulate and you have to wear insulation underneath. I have a one-piece fleece liner suit (great for pajamas when winter camping!) and supplement it with other layers as conditions require. Highly recommended - you can't easily tuck your top back into the pants on a two piece liner when you're all wrapped up. I went with the Gore-Tex suit and find that while I get quite sweaty when paddling (the insulation required for water will always be too warm for paddling in air), I get dried out to a comfortable level when stopped for a break. The wicking properties of the fleece dry your skin and the Gore-Tex eventually lets the perspiration evaporate. Don't expect miracles, though. Make sure a dry suit fits comfortably. You'll want some room to move. The neck seal bugs me, especially if I shave. I've stretched it adequately, but it doesn't let my neck rotate when I turn my head. Hence, the suit has to be loose enough to twist with the neck seal. Similarly, you want lots of arm movement. You'll still need head and hand protection. I find neoprene pogies quite warm and usually put them on the paddle but push them off to the middle until I need them. For head protection I wear a rubbery fleece cap. I haven't got a neoprene hood yet, but should get one for really cold weather. There are several manufacturers of dry suits. I'd recommend the paddler-specific companies like Kokatat or Stolquist, rather than the sailing companies. The Kokatat Meridian and Stolquist Charc are virtually identical, so choose based on color :-) I got the latex booties and can't understand why anyone would want ankle seals instead. Now you can get neoprene socks attached and if I had the choice at the time, I'd have got those. Get the relief zipper as well - it's a lot easier to pay for it than to remove the suit every time you need to pee! Other info available on request! Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Michael Daly wrote: > "Thomas M. Heineman" wrote: > > > > Any thoughts on when you need a wet suit vs. a dry suit. Lake Michigan > > is now 53 degrees and dropping rapidly. > > > > I need to buy a wet suit and/or dry suit and am curious what the > > guidelines are. > > > > I've worn both wet and dry suits and definitely prefer the dry suit in > cold conditions. I keep the wet suit (farmer john) for marginal > conditions in the summer and the dry suit for the other three > seasons. > I agree with the above comments from Mike with a few additions. I know that you should dress for the water temp and not the air temp, but I prefer a wetsuit when air temps are above 50 F because otherwise you have to spend an awful lot of time rolling to cool off in a dry suit. The exception would be when you expect a good thrashing in surf or whitewater regardless of whether you exit your boat. When I teach a sea kayaking class I describe the difference between a wetsuit and a dry suit in these terms. On multi-day late season trips on Lake Superior the wet suit procedure is as follows: awake to the morning frost and pickup your wet-wet suit which is stiff as board leaning frozen against a tree. Beat the wet suit against the tree until you can get it to fold a little. Melt some of the ice crystals by warming the wet suit over the fire. Strip down to your trunks in icy weather and slide the frosty wet suit over your bare skin. It helps to make barking dog or seal-like noises, and jumping up and down helps you warm the suit. After about 15 minutes of agony you are warm and comfy. Dry suit procedure. Crawl out of your sleeping bag in your warm fuzzy pile clothes. Slide into your warm dry comfy Gortex dry suit which is at the foot of your bed. Have breakfast while warm and dry and then put on your PFD and go. Anyone who has done the late October jumping and barking routine no longer contests that the cost of a Gortex drysuit is worth the benefits! > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not > to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 10/31/99 10:46:40 AM Pacific Standard Time, wanewman_at_uswest.net writes: << Anyone who has done the late October jumping and barking routine no longer contests that the cost of a drysuit is worth the benefits! >> A dry suit is also great on any multi day trip in the Northwest & Alaska even in the summer. A wet suit in the morning is a pain even if it is not frozen. Setting up camp in the rain is another reason for a Gortex Dry suit. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Tomckayak_at_aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 10/31/99 10:46:40 AM Pacific Standard Time, > wanewman_at_uswest.net writes: > > << Anyone who has done the late October jumping and barking routine no longer > contests that the cost of a drysuit is worth the benefits! > >> > A dry suit is also great on any multi day trip in the Northwest & Alaska even > in the summer. A wet suit in the morning is a pain even if it is not frozen. > Setting up camp in the rain is another reason for a Gortex Dry suit. > ************************************************************************* Why Goretex? Does it really breathe $400 better than those that don't breathe at all? I took a 5 day trip on Prince William Sound in Alsaka with an outfitter that expressly stated "No Goretex." Beacuse parts of the Sound are rainforests, having dry gear that was truly dry gear was really important. I started out bringing a Columbia "Omni-Tech" rain jacket that was tested the day before we left by rain... It was several years old and although it reportedly "breathed" it also absorbed moisture in it's old age.... I bought some urethane coated relatively inexpensive rain gear that worked fine. Admittedly this was not Goretex, but you get my drift. I also had a Kokatec lightweight paddling jacket that worked well ($60 on sale at REI). Why not get a drysuit that is not Goretex? Is it really worth the extra $$$$? Tom (lives 100 yards from LAke Michigan that gets very cold in the winter) P.S. The native Alaskans seemed to love to poke fun at the Goretex clad tourists from the lower 48... Do they know something we don't know? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Thomas M. Heineman wrote: > Tomckayak_at_aol.com wrote: > > A dry suit is also great on any multi day trip in the Northwest & Alaska even > > in the summer. A wet suit in the morning is a pain even if it is not frozen. > > Setting up camp in the rain is another reason for a Gortex Dry suit. > Why Goretex? Does it really breathe $400 better than those that don't > breathe at all? Absolutely, if you have the bucks. There is probably no better place to put your "comfort dollar" than in Goretex gear, if you are traveling day after day in wet conditions. Remember, with totally water-vapor-impermeable gear your own sweat will saturate your insulating garments, much reducing their effectiveness. And how will you "dry" that gear if it is raining steadily? With Goretex outerwear, I can "dry out" the slight dampness developed in my insulating layers while preparing dinner, etc., under the tarp, and wear them to sleep in, if I want. > P.S. The native Alaskans seemed to love to poke fun at the Goretex clad > tourists from the lower 48... Do they know something we don't know? I doubt it. I used to poke fun at others who wore Goretex, ostensibly because "it did not work." That conclusion was based on a bad experience with first-generation Goretex some 20 years ago, similar to the experience Thomas Heineman had with an older Omni-Tech garment, mentioned in his response to tomckayak. Some 6-7 years ago I invested in one of Kokatat's better Goretex paddle jackets, and it completely changed my mind. It rains somewhere between 7 and 8 feet here annually, and I use my Goretex a lot. The latest revelation is that boots with a Goretex liner *really work,* despite my skepticism. Never had such dry feet before. Really unbelieveable. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Thomas M. Heineman wrote: > > > ...<snip>... > > P.S. The native Alaskans seemed to love to poke fun at the Goretex clad > > tourists from the lower 48... Do they know something we don't know? Dave Kruger responded: > I doubt it. ...<snip>... > It rains somewhere between 7 and > 8 feet here annually, and I use my Goretex a lot. > ... Right on, Dave. We had a very extensive discussion of this issue (including how to keep Goretex functioning properly) on the WaveLength list prior to the establishment of Paddlewise. Fortunately Hank Hays (of Lightning Paddles) was good enough to extract the essential points and post them on his website (after doing some additional research). Check it out: http://www.paddles.com/users/wildcamp/goretex.html BTW, Hank's website is full of useful information--a veritable treasure trove! :-) Dan Hagen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
For the sake of balance, I will add that dry suits are subject to total failure from even a small puncture or tear. If they leak at all, they will provide very little protection from cold water immersion. The tight latex gaskets at the neck, wrists, and ankles also cause significant discomfort for many people. In addition to the high initial cost of a dry suit (I seem to recall prices starting at well over $500) , the wearer will need to have or purchase layers of insulating undergarments. The wearer is likely to become uncomfortably warm while paddling and there is no way to "safely" vent excess heat while on the water and still retain any protection from immersion. Wetsuits are (in my opinion) quite durable, more easily repaired, and small tears will result in cold spots rather than total failure. The farmer john style wetsuit previously mentioned would NOT be a reasonable choice in 50 degree (F) water. Full wetsuits of 6mm and more (and a hood) are a very reasonable choice for cold water. They are also much less expensive (Starting at less than $200) The only undergarment you might need is a lycra "rash" shirt to prevent chafing at the armpits. If the wearer becomes overheated, they can be unzipped to "safely" vent excess body heat and in the case of unexpected immersion, zipped back up to retain heat. For multi-day trips, they are certainly less convenient to put on than a drysuit but as an alternative to Michael Dalys' torturous instructions to his students, I would suggest putting the wetsuit in a dry bag, pouring hot (not boiling) water into the bag to warm the wetsuit. Shake the bag and when the water temperature inside the bag stabilizes at a point just slightly warmer than feels comfortable, quickly strip down, take the wetsuit out of the bag and put it on before it has a chance to cool. Then rather than jumping around and barking like Michael suggests, simply exhale, smile, and say aahhh. Dave Martin Noyo Pacific Outfitters < www.noyopacific.com > Canoe & Kayak Rentals & Sales Noyo Harbor Fort Bragg, CA (707) 961-0559 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
David Martin --- probably some distant relation --- makes an important point that "... dry suits are subject to total failure from even a small puncture or tear. If they leak at all, they will provide very little protection from cold water immersion." And, in fact, a compromised drysuit was shown in a Coast Guard and Navy test to provide essentially no thermal protection to its user. At that point, it's about as good as a "huddle" technique in open water survival. My personal response to this unlikely but definitely potential "worst case" scenario --- and you have to think of what could happen to separate you from your kayak for an extended time --- is to wear a full Thermal Stretch material jumpsuit as part or all of my insulation layer. When dry, it's warm fleece lining provides most of my needed insulation, assuming the drysuit (a GoreTex suit by Kokatat) remains intact, but, should the suit be compromised, it gives me the survivability of the equivalent of a two mil neoprene suit. Not a lot, but a survivable situation. (The newer Rubberized Thermal Stretch, sometimes called "fuzzy rubber", does not breathe as well as the older Thermal Stretch, and may not work as well in the dry mode; both materials are made by Malden Mills, and are the composite fabrics of choice for most non-neoprene "wet" gear these days. As to countering the risks of drysuit-induced hyperthermia --- not sure I totally agree with Cousin Dave: there are safe ways of venting excessive heat while wearing a drysuit. We frequently take off our gloves for short periods of time and dip our hands (briefly!) in cold water; there's a lot of blood circulating there, and hands can act as a radiator to bleed off the body's excess heat. A more dramatic and effective way to vent off a good deal of heat is to roll or practice self rescues; hey, you're on the water and you'd better be ready to be in the water! That's something that many of my paddling colleagues espouse and drill --- worst case scenarios. A good way into that is to start now, while the water temperature is declining slowly, swim the gear you decide to use regularly, and get used to it as the air and water temperatures begin to get serious. Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>A more dramatic and effective way to vent off a good deal of heat is to roll or practice self rescues; hey, you're on the water and you'd better be ready to be in the water! That's something that many of my paddling colleagues espouse and drill --- worst case scenarios. I have to question this advice (practicing self rescues to cool off). You're using a lot of energy to do a self rescue, and there is the potential of pulling a muscle which might put an end to the day's paddling for you as well as your paddling partners. If you're out for a day paddle that might not be so bad, but if you're in the middle of a week long kayak camping trip the risk of injury becomes serious. Additionally, wasting energy seems unwise at any time since conditions can change unexpectedly and abruptly and you may find yourself without the strength to paddle to safety. Self rescues should be practiced, and practiced in the worst conditions you can safely practice in, but may be best reserved for times dedicated to practice rather than a paddling trip. Karen (got no energy to waste!) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com wrote: > > David Martin --- probably some distant relation --- makes an important point > that "... dry suits are subject to total failure from even a small puncture > or tear. If they leak at all, they will provide very little protection from > cold water immersion." And, in fact, a compromised drysuit was shown in a > Coast Guard and Navy test to provide essentially no thermal protection to its > user. At that point, it's about as good as a "huddle" technique in open water > survival. > In order to burp my dry suit*, I sometimes walk into the water up to my shoulders. This also does a quick check for any leaks and insulation adequacy before paddling. Not perfect, but a start. > My personal response to this unlikely but definitely potential "worst case" > scenario --- and you have to think of what could happen to separate you from > your kayak for an extended time --- is to wear a full Thermal Stretch material > jumpsuit as part or all of my insulation layer. When dry, it's warm fleece > lining provides most of my needed insulation, assuming the drysuit (a GoreTex > suit by Kokatat) remains intact, but, should the suit be compromised, it gives > me the survivability of the equivalent of a two mil neoprene suit. What advantage does the Thermal Stretch have over regular fleece inside a leaky dry suit? It would seem to me that the only advantage of thermal in the open would be that the nylon/lycra layer reduces the flow of cold water through the fleece. If regular fleece is inside a leaky dry suit, water flow would also be minimized. Or am I missing something? Mike *Burping a dry suit, for those that don't know, is the process of removing excess air from inside the suit. If too much air is inside the suit, it could flow into your legs and force you into an inverted position in the water, since your legs would be more buoyant than your upper body. This could kill you in white water, though I'm not sure you couldn't resolve it in calm water with a tuck-and-roll. I may try it some time... not alone. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Thomas M. Heineman wrote: > > Any thoughts on when you need a wet suit vs. a dry suit. Lake Michigan > is now 53 degrees and dropping rapidly. > > I need to buy a wet suit and/or dry suit and am curious what the > guidelines are. > > Any recommendations for brand/type? > > Tom The answer to this is a moving target. It was not so long ago that paddlers ventured out with minimal cold water clothing, wool and rain slickers. All you have to look at are early editions of John Dowd's book and Derek Hutchinson's book to see what I mean (his classic comment back then was who wants to go around smelling like a stinky frogman when he could be all decked out in the clothing of a Gentleman British walker). Then paddlers started wearing 3 mm neoprene in conjunction with paddling jackets and pants. Then dry suits came into vogue. Meanwhile, the scale of when to wear what and the consequences of not doing so has also been a moving target. At one point, the threshold for donning even a wet suit was either 50 degrees or 55 degrees. But that has been upped to a point that some paddling clubs have been known to refuse paddlers not properly cold water clothed when the water temperature was proven to be hovering around 65 degrees, which is acceptable beach swimming temperature water in many parts of the country. What is the clothing situation now and what are the thresholds? What is survivablility at various temperatures or more importantly self-rescueability at various temperatures? All I can answer with is my own personal choices. I start off with the premise that I am in a folding kayak that is not prone to tip and is not for playing around with doing eskimo rolls. I know lots of folding kayakers who start with that premise and rely on it and so don no cold water clothing whatsoever. I think that is wrong and have spoken and written until I am blue in the face telling them so. I advise a modicum of cold water clothing regardless of the type of boat on the proven theory that something can always go wrong. So, even though I am in a folder that is not tippy and can be remounted in seconds without much in the way of paddle float aid, etc. here is what I wear. When water temperatures are around or below 60 and even with the air in the 70s, I put on as a minimum a shorty Polartec Thermal Stretch suit (the material Jack Martin described); this is a one piece suit with short legs and sleeveless but with wide shoulder protection. Over that, if I am feeling the least bit chilly (i.e. air temperture around 70 or less), I add a short sleeve jacket of the same material. As the water temperature starts inching down to the 55 degree mark environs, I switch to a full suit of that same material. (BTW, I wear a Goretex Paddle Jacket over this at these temperatures.) When the water temperature gets to around 50 degrees or so, I put on a vest of the same material over the suit. Below 50 deg. or so, I switch to a coated nylon dry suit, because that is what I have, with a varying amount of insulation under it, about 200 wt. fleece on top and 100 wt. fleece on legs (although I may switch this insulation to the Polartec Thermal Stretch as Jack Martin suggests and which he and I have discussed in the past). At times I may not wear the dry suit and push the Polartec Thermal Stretch suit and vest get-up down below 50 if the air temperatures are high and conditions not windy or tricky but I know that this outfit is risky in this range and would not be too good below 45 degrees water temperature. The rules can't be hard and fast. This is an old discussion but well worth repeating and I hope we knock it around some more. Feather/unfeather discussions are habit and style; cold water clothing is a matter of life. It can't be stressed enough. ralph -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Karen countered, "... self rescues should be practiced, and practiced in the worst conditions you can safely practice in, but may be best reserved for times dedicated to practice rather than a paddling trip." Don't dispute that, and wasn't really thinking of doing a lot of longer trips during the winter months, anyway, I guess. And I see her point, but I was really addressing cooling down and not self rescues; roto-cooling works for me. Hand-radiating also works. I guess I'd have to wonder if people who don't have a reasonably effective roll should be doing long transits in the winter, anyway --- a roll not being the energy waster that a paddlefloat re-entry obviously can become. Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> I guess I'd have to wonder if people who don't have a reasonably effective roll should be doing long transits in the winter, anyway --- a roll not being the energy waster that a paddlefloat re-entry obviously can become. > Winter/summer isn't the point. Water temperature is. If you paddle Alaska in summer, water temperature might warrant wearing a dry suit, while air temperature is in the warm 70's. This is the type of situation that prompted initial concern about overheating in a dry suit. As for rolling... I am wondering how many people practice rolling a loaded kayak? Is there any difference rolling loaded/unloaded boat? Or rolling a kayak with gear lashed to deck? Also, when rolling in very cold water (as in Alaska), do you experience any type of reflex (like gasping) when your face hits the water? I learned to SCUBA dive in Alaska and recall feeling like upchucking on my first open water dive when cold water seeped through the neck gasket of the dry suit (neoprene) and ran down my back. Karen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>> As for rolling... I am wondering how many people practice rolling a loaded kayak? Is there any difference rolling loaded/unloaded boat? Or rolling a kayak with gear lashed to deck? Also, when rolling in very cold water (as in Alaska), do you experience any type of reflex (like gasping) when your face hits the water? I learned to SCUBA dive in Alaska and recall feeling like upchucking on my first open water dive when cold water seeped through the neck gasket of the dry suit (neoprene) and ran down my back. Karen >> I find virtually no difference between rolling a loaded and an unloaded boat. (The first time my wife rolled a loaded boat, she forgot it was loaded, and I had to point it out to her afterward.) Rolling with gear lashed to the deck could conceivably make a difference, but I keep my decks as clear as possible, and have no experience with it. I don't think everyone experiences cold shock symptoms, for I have never had a gasp reflex when rolling in ice water. (However, I usually wear a neoprene hood and a dry suit when I do so.) Also, I have been on several ski trips in which people (myself included) jumped into a lake through a hole in the ice after a sauna. I don't recall *anyone* gasping when they put their head underwater. However, twice I have hyperventilated after wet-exiting when I ran out of air while capsized in cold (not icy) water, and I have also felt my muscles grow numb during swims in cold water, so I do have a great deal of respect for what it can do. Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> As for rolling... I am wondering how many people practice rolling a loaded > kayak? Is there any difference rolling loaded/unloaded boat? Or rolling a > kayak with gear lashed to deck? Also, when rolling in very cold water (as in > Alaska), do you experience any type of reflex (like gasping) when your face > hits the water? I learned to SCUBA dive in Alaska and recall feeling like > upchucking on my first open water dive when cold water seeped through the > neck gasket of the dry suit (neoprene) and ran down my back. well, as for rolling cold water I can't say much about that in Australia. But as for rolling a loaded boat - no real difference to unloaded. The only thing I do with a loaded boat is to take the roll relatively slowly and carefully and let the technique do the work. The practice some of us do in warmer months (it might not get as cold as alaska but even so in winter here I'd rather stay dry) is a roll at the end of each paddle before landing. This means we roll loaded boats somewhat regularly, and you ensure you can roll at the end of day's paddle when tired. We call it the 'winkworth roll' in honour of the NSWSKC training officer, dave winkworth, who promotes it and is liable to suggest rolls offshore at any moment! As for having sufficient geat lashed to deck to confound rolls - forget it, don't have it there. It may well cause roll problems (i don't know) but it could cause windage problems, or hinder rescues, climbing back in, balance etc. nick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>The practice some of us do in warmer months (it might not get as cold as alaska but even so in winter here I'd rather stay dry) is a roll at the end of each paddle before landing. This means we roll loaded boats somewhat regularly, and you ensure you can roll at the end of day's paddle when tired. We call it the 'winkworth roll' in honour of the NSWSKC training officer, dave winkworth, who promotes it and is liable to suggest rolls offshore at any moment! Great idea! Karen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 11/1/99 12:54:02 PM Pacific Standard Time, magpi_at_transport.com writes: << Is there any difference rolling loaded/unloaded boat? Or rolling a kayak with gear lashed to deck? >> IF the gear does not roll around, a loaded boat is easier to roll. At some point the size of a deck load will kill a roll, I think. I paddle a Mariner MAX without hatches or permanent bulkheads. Results with a different type of kayak may be different. Tom C. Edmonds WA. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi group - I agree with just about everything Mike Daly wrote in his excellent post on wetsuits/drysuits. My own experience is slightly different from Mike's in that I probably sweat a bit more than Mike does, so even the Goretex drysuit doesn't keep me completely dry. After just an hour or so of paddling, and not extreme paddling at that, the polys which line the suit will be damp. After a few hours, they will be wet. Enough water accumulates just above the ankle gaskets so that I want to "vent" them just after getting out of the water, rather than dribble all that dilute salt solution onto the living room carpet (gross, I know, but what can ya do - ). In cold or windy weather, I need to be careful to have an additional layer of dry clothes to put on if I stop paddling for any length of time, for example when I take a lunch break. Otherwise I could get chilled . Even so, the goretex drysuit has been a wonderful thing to have. It's one of the best paddling investments I've made. I use it with appropriate poys underneath when the air temp or water temp is below 55 or so. For slightly more spring-like temps I use either a drytop or a wetsuit. Whatever I wear and whatever the temperature, the PFD is always on top of it, zipped up. In summer the PFD is sometimes hot, but it stays on anyway. My last word on drysuits - get a relief zipper if you possibly can. What a difference that makes! Bill Hansen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>David Martin --- probably some distant relation --- makes an important point that "... dry suits are subject to total failure from even a small puncture or tear. If they leak at all, they will provide very little protection from cold water immersion." But I think it's a very rare occurence. Many WW paddlers, including myself, will wear a drysuit from now until spring in this area (NJ/PA) You're sliding around lots of rocks, potential snaggers and tearers, and I can't think of a single instance where the suit fabric was torn and a leak develop. Er, well, there was the time I messed up the zipper and I had a pencil sized hole there. The water was cold, noticeable, but it was only in that area. Gaskets, of course, are another story. If you do get water in there, it's also not recirculating with the outside water so in that case the water may rewarm a bit. I agree, wearing Polypro layers or liners underneath the suit is a very good idea. And, in fact, a compromised drysuit was shown in a Coast Guard and Navy test to provide essentially no thermal protection to its user. At that point, it's about as good as a "huddle" technique in open water survival. > >My personal response to this unlikely but definitely potential "worst case" scenario --- and you have to think of what could happen to separate you from your kayak for an extended time --- is to wear a full Thermal Stretch material jumpsuit as part or all of my insulation layer. When dry, it's warm fleece lining provides most of my needed insulation, assuming the drysuit (a GoreTex suit by Kokatat) remains intact, but, should the suit be compromised, it gives me the survivability of the equivalent of a two mil neoprene suit. Not a lot, but a survivable situation. (The newer Rubberized Thermal Stretch, sometimes called "fuzzy rubber", does not breathe as well as the older Thermal Stretch, and may not work as well in the dry mode; both materials are made by Malden Mills, and are the composite fabrics of choice for most non-neoprene "wet" gear these days. > >As to countering the risks of drysuit-induced hyperthermia --- not sure I totally agree with Cousin Dave: there are safe ways of venting excessive heat while wearing a drysuit. We frequently take off our gloves for short periods of time and dip our hands (briefly!) in cold water; there's a lot of blood circulating there, and hands can act as a radiator to bleed off the body's excess heat. A more dramatic and effective way to vent off a good deal of heat is to roll or practice self rescues; hey, you're on the water and you'd better be ready to be in the water! That's something that many of my paddling colleagues espouse and drill --- worst case scenarios. A good way into that is to start now, while the water temperature is declining slowly, swim the gear you decide to use regularly, and get used to it as the air and water temperatures begin to get serious. > >Jack Martin >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not >to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Several people have mentioned the importance of the relief zipper. For about half the population, this isn't particularly useful. But Kokatat also makes a drop seat, which is particularly useful. I consider the drop seat and latex booties on my dry suit to be essential to the utility of the garment. On Mon, 1 Nov 1999 20:01:05 EST Bhansen97_at_aol.com writes: > Hi group - I agree with just about everything Mike Daly wrote in his > excellent post on wetsuits/drysuits. My own experience is slightly > different > from Mike's in that I probably sweat a bit more than Mike does, so > even the > Goretex drysuit doesn't keep me completely dry. After just an hour > or so of > paddling, and not extreme paddling at that, the polys which line the > suit > will be damp. After a few hours, they will be wet. Enough water > accumulates > just above the ankle gaskets so that I want to "vent" them just > after getting > out of the water, rather than dribble all that dilute salt solution > onto the > living room carpet (gross, I know, but what can ya do - ). > > In cold or windy weather, I need to be careful to have an additional > layer of > dry clothes to put on if I stop paddling for any length of time, for > example > when I take a lunch break. Otherwise I could get chilled . > > Even so, the goretex drysuit has been a wonderful thing to have. > It's one of > the best paddling investments I've made. I use it with appropriate > poys > underneath when the air temp or water temp is below 55 or so. For > slightly > more spring-like temps I use either a drytop or a wetsuit. > > Whatever I wear and whatever the temperature, the PFD is always on > top of it, > zipped up. In summer the PFD is sometimes hot, but it stays on > anyway. > > My last word on drysuits - get a relief zipper if you possibly can. > What a > difference that makes! > > Bill Hansen > ************************************************************************* ** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author > and not > to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > ************************************************************************* ** ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At the real risk of beating this issue to death, let me address three issues raised by other posts. I recognize that we are unlikely to experience the failure of a latex seal or, even more unlikely, that we would ever tear dry suit material. But, in a situation where we are knocked down or out of our boats (e.g., hitting a partially submerged rock or piling which is covered with barnacles, not a totally outlandish scenario) drysuit failure could happen. Risk management deals with the likelihood of an event occurring, but also looks at the severity or significance of the negative impact which would result if the event did, in fact, occur. A study conducted by the Navy and Coast Guard showed that a four inch cut in the shoulder of a drysuit caused the suit to completely fill with water immediately; the swimmer, wearing a PFD and using only the minimal activity needed to stay afloat, moved sufficiently to flush the water within his suit through the hole, virtually negating any thermal retention of warmed water --- the wetsuit principle of keeping a layer of warmed water next to the skin. The drysuit had no measurable survival value once compromised. If anyone's interested, I can provide the references on the study. Second, as to the relative value of Polartec Thermal Stretch material vs. regular fleece, it's in the design. Thermal Stretch (and Ruberized Thermal Stretch) emulate the principle of a wetsuit when they're wet --- holding a thin layer of body-warmed water against the skin; the membrane which comprises the middle layer of the composite material keeps water from flushing through, and the fleece inner layer compresses but retains the warmed water, also inhibiting the flushing action which would otherwise constantly vent off the body-warmed water. Bottom line: it works. I've tested my Thermal Stretch in cold water, swimming it in 38 degree water for 25 minutes; I got out because that's the time I arbitrarily assigned to be a worst case swim. I was very cold, and I'd probably lowered my body temperature by one or two degrees, but I was not borderline hypothermic and was essentially functional. Regular fleece or stretch fleece (like Polartec 200S) would have provided essentiall! ! y no thermal protection in the same water test. It doesn't work like a wet suit, and, when it's submerged, water can and will constantly wick off your body heat. (Given, the stuff is terrific, and, under a shell, will provide noticable thermal protection on land even when it's wet; but it's different when it's submerged.) It's the combination of the compression of the lycra (or elastic outer layer in the rubberized material), the inner membrane (which is breathable in Thermal Stretch and somewhat less breathable in Rubberized Thermal Stretch when dry), and the Polartec fleece inner layer which creates the wetsuit effect that provides swimmable survival protection. Where to get it? The problem is that many manufacturers put their own names on the product. Colorado Kayaks used to use both Thermal Stretch materials; they now seem to sell only the rubberized material, but check their site for more information: www.coloradokayaksusa.com. The folks at Mountain Surf sell a Thermal Stretch suit; see their catalog or site at www.mountainsurf.com. This stuff isn't cheap --- probably close to $200 for a jumpsuit. Is it necessary? It's a redundant safety factor which is of value to a few of us. Admittedly, the chance of my Kokatat GoreTex suit failing is slim, and it's very well maintained. But I do a fair amount of solo paddling, even in winter, and, while I don't do any long trips or major crossings, it wouldn't take much cold water to disable me if I crashed even a half mile off shore. So I use what I talk about. It's a personal call --- it's your call. Jack Martin Chair, Department of Redundancy Department *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:33:04 PDT