Never measured comfort versus actual temperature, but will pass along an experience. If someone knows the average Lake Superior water temps at the times of year that mark the following episodes, we might be able to pin down approximate times when a dry suit should replace a wet suit. Last Memorial day in Apostle Islands, debated whether to wear wet suit or dry suit in unseasonably warm weather. Chose wet suit rather than cook under sun. (Can't roll, so couldn't cool off that way.) When reached island destination was overheated in wet suit and took plunge. Unbelievable shock! Farmer john gave some protection, but shoulders and arms numbed immediately, driving me out of water in less than a minute. Realized that, if capsized, would have almost no time for either self- or assisted rescue. Terribly anxious until reached shore, donned dry suit with light insulation, and tested by swimming. Later, in August at Isle Royale, again chose wet suit, this time for week-long paddle. This time had no problem swimming -- water in protected areas was actually pleasant. Also found wet suit adequate in Lake Michigan even in late September. Point: Great Lakes change with season. If you plan to rely on a wet suit when paddling them, make sure you take a swim in it before you go out. Wet suit will always make a big difference, but it may not always be enough. Old bromide: Dress for the water, not the air. Rick Later *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Allan Singleton wrote: > How thick is a "normal" wetsuit in your part of the world? Here you can buy > from 2mm to 8mm, perhaps even 10mm. > > I have 3mm and 6mm suits, farmer johns plus jackets. A polypro top, 3mm > farmer john and a paddle jacket is my normal warm season wear, substituting > the 6mm farmer john in the winter. The 3mm waist length jacket is normally > taken along, but rarely worn. The 6mm jacket is a hoodless dive jacket, > gives great extra protection, but is too restrictive to paddle in for any > length of time. > > Does anyone have guidelines on water temperature vs wetsuit thickness? Or > for when wetsuit should become drysuit? I'll take a crack at this with some caveats --metabolisms and acclimatization to cold varies by individuals and ain't just the fat layers although that helps some --protection in the water is not the same as what how you will feel once you are out of the water and into wind and cold air temperatures So here goes: Good to around 45-47 degree water---3 mm farmer john with a full sleeve top of medium weight capilene or similars underneath the top portion. Over that a dry top and some kind of paddling pants. Booties, polartec beanie, gloves. Good to low 40s: Full 5 mm suit or a full 3 mm suit with some kind of jacket or vest of similar material and the rest of the stuff from above. Fundamentally, a wet suit to dry suit switchover should occur in the mid 40s or sooner if you wish; and especially if the air is cool. Trouble with 5 mm neoprene in full suit or even a full 3 mm suit is that it is too restrictive for touring paddling. But a custom-tailored suit of this thickness will work. I paddled with a Navy Seal commander who had a full suit of I think 5 mm neoprene thickness including hood that all was custom tailored for him. It was not restrictive for paddling. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ralph D wrote: > Fundamentally, a wet suit to dry suit switchover should occur in the mid > 40s or sooner if you wish; and especially if the air is cool. Ralph, I have to admit when I read this message, I thought you might be trolling for debate. Apparently I was wrong, and I have to admire you're one of the very few willing to post actual temperatures at which different garments should be worn (with caveats). My question (you knew this was coming, right?) is: Are these temperature/garment recommendations based on your personal experience or another source? As a side note, my next door neighbor (a volunteer fireman) said he thought my 3 mm wet suit to be good only down to 55 degree water temp. This is based on some sort of training he received for his volunteer job, but I didn't press him for specifics or question him on the validity of his statement. Without all the other gear you mentioned (beanie, gloves, etc) this might be in the right ballpark. Second question (and open to all): Should the paddling community define some "rules of thumb" for different types of clothing for varying water temps? Would this be safer for new paddlers to understand? (vice the "jump in and test it" advice) Thanks, Woody *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Robert Woodard wrote: > > Ralph D wrote: > > > Fundamentally, a wet suit to dry suit switchover should occur in the mid > > 40s or sooner if you wish; and especially if the air is cool. > > Ralph, I have to admit when I read this message, I thought you might be > trolling for debate. Apparently I was wrong, and I have to admire you're one > of the very few willing to post actual temperatures at which different > garments should be worn (with caveats). > > My question (you knew this was coming, right?) is: Are these > temperature/garment recommendations based on your personal experience or > another source? I have jumped into 45-47 degree water wearing a 3mm neoprene farmer john and all the stuff mentioned ( I had polypro long sleeve shirt under that, 100 weight fleece top over that and a paddle jacket (coated, non-breatable) with paddle pants and real thick neoprene non-zippered 6-7 inch high (I believe the booties are 6 mm); neoprene gloves, no particular head cover.) I could function for more than enough time to do a re-entry but it was uncomfortable and I was chilly until I warmed up via paddling. I suspect some people would have been real cold in what I was wearing and others could have hung out in the water as happy as seals. But the outfit was more than enough. Other accounts from various sources seem to confirm that non-dry suits, i.e. neoprene or polartec, are workable to about that degree (and the 6 mm neoprene that Allan Singleton seems to be able to paddle in would be infinitely better). I hear it from whitewater sources. And also sea kayaking sources. At least one manufacturer has also stated that 45 degree barrier, I noticed in regard to the polartec thermal stretch stuff which they also said was the equivalent of 2mm to 2.5mm of neoprene. Jack Martin mentioned in Paddlewise recently that he tested swimming around in cold water in I think just his polartec thermal stretch suit for 20 minutes in 38 degree water...he was quite cold but functional and thought he might have dropped his core temperature a degree or so. But it isn't always like that. A fairly burly man here was in for about the same amount of swim in the Boathouse embayment in water at about that temperature and he was really miserable while wearing I believe farmer johns of that material and a paddle jacket (it may have been a full suit). And Chuck Sutherland, who is a big guy, reported in some article being in high 40s water (I think, but it may have been around 50) with a farmer john and paddle jacket and going overboard (while sailing because his roll is fully a combat one, par excellence) for a half hour swim or so and was miserable and getting hyperthermic. So based on all that, I stick to my point of 45 degree as a good dividing line for switching unless you are positive you can reboard in 2 minutes or less (Ahhh, folding kayaks!). > As a side note, my next door neighbor (a volunteer fireman) said he thought > my 3 mm wet suit to be good only down to 55 degree water temp. This is based > on some sort of training he received for his volunteer job, but I didn't > press him for specifics or question him on the validity of his statement. That is unequivocally wrong. I wish you had pressed him on it. Maybe he is thinking of divers. Some competitive swimmers go for long periods in that degree water with no wet suit. You would be fine in one. > Without all the other gear you mentioned (beanie, gloves, etc) this might be > in the right ballpark. No, with all the extra stuff, you would be okay up to about 10 degrees lower than what he said. But again so much depends on the individual. And remember the bottom line...this is all in the non-dry suit realm. In a _dry_ suit with a decent amount of fleece underneath and hand, neck, foot and head protection, you could hang out for an incredibly long time in water in 40 degrees and lower. So if in doubt about your metabolism and cold exposure tolerance, opt for a dry suit for water below 50 and 55 degrees if you can stand wearing it in the air temperature at that time (my tolerance for a coated dry suit has gone up as high as about 70 degrees or so air temperature but in a day that started off in the high 50s air temperature. and of course I was soaking wet with sweat underneath.) > > Second question (and open to all): Should the paddling community define some > "rules of thumb" for different types of clothing for varying water temps? > Would this be safer for new paddlers to understand? (vice the "jump in and > test it" advice) Woody, my email pal, I think it has, albeit groups vary in what those rules of thumb should be. Remember that 1998 CPA annual meeting paddle trip in which, from what I was told by several sources, several people were turned away who had no cold water gear even though the water was in the 63 degree range. No one in Puget Sound would insist on that at that water temperature (does it even get that high there!) nor up here in NYC especially for just a fun short trip in calm air and warm air temperatures. My own rule of thumb has steadily over the years gotten more and more conservative. Years ago, I would never have dreamed of putting on cold water protection until water was beginning to drop below 55 and actually around 52 or so. Now I put on a shorty polartec thermal stretch suit at 60 degrees and switch to a full polartec thermal stretch suit at below 55 degrees. The newer materials have made it possible to be comfortable with a decent level of cold water protection; and I have been buy an array of the stuff from a shorty farmer john to full suit and vest and shortsleeve jacket, all of which give me lots of options for varying air and water temperature situations as well as my own gut feel about how much risk I may be facing. (BTW, I have found that with age my normal body temperature has dropped quite a bit. My norm is at exactly 97 degrees. If I am at the 98.6 degree hash mark on a thermometer, I consider that the beginnings of a fever!!!) ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: <rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com> > > > Good to around 45-47 degree water---3 mm farmer john with a full sleeve > top of medium weight capilene or similars underneath the top portion. > Over that a dry top and some kind of paddling pants. Booties, polartec > beanie, gloves. > > Good to low 40s: Full 5 mm suit or a full 3 mm suit with some kind of > jacket or vest of similar material and the rest of the stuff from above. > > Fundamentally, a wet suit to dry suit switchover should occur in the mid > 40s or sooner if you wish; and especially if the air is cool. > > ralph diaz > -- Thanks for the reply Ralph. I understand about differing metabolisms, as my wife's hands and head feel the cold more than mine, so she starts adding extra layers before I do. When out of the kayak we put on wind proof overtrousers, otherwise it can get very cold in a wetsuit (our paddle jackets protect the upper body). Average sea surface temperatures in New Zealand in winter range from 48 degrees in the south to 59 degrees in the north. In summer the respective values are 59 degrees and 69 degrees. We normally paddle in the northern half of the North Island, and the coldest water we would encounter is in hydro lakes, down to 50 degrees. We switch from 3mm to 6mm farmer johns below about 55 degrees - more conservative than your figures, but better that than the other way around. Also, considering what gear we already have, it was nice to have you confirm that we don't really need to get another mortgage to go and buy dry suits! Allan Singleton Hamilton NZ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I am a volunteer firefighter as well....we do all our water and ice rescues with dry suits. With the exception of underwater body recoveries, where we use full 6 mm wet suits. Our lake temperature may go up to 20 Celsius ( around 68 F) in the summer and of course several feet of ice in the winter. :) Jim Meldrum Slave Lake, Alberta, Canada. > My question (you knew this was coming, right?) is: Are these > temperature/garment recommendations based on your personal experience or > another source? > > As a side note, my next door neighbor (a volunteer fireman) said he > thought > my 3 mm wet suit to be good only down to 55 degree water temp. > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
<- Original Text -> ...snipped... Second question (and open to all): Should the paddling community define some "rules of thumb" for different types of clothing for varying water temps? Would this be safer for new paddlers to understand? (vice the "jump in and test it" advice) Thanks, Woody Hi Woody, There are rules of thumb floating around, and of course the reason they are so broad is that people have difference amounts of insulating lard about their core and elsewhere. ;-) (There are other reasons for variable heat and cold tolerance, too.) I am the first to put on a sweater, whereas others can go short-sleeved all winter (arrgh!). But at a certain point, **cold water wins**, no matter who you are. Your goal is to stay alive long enough to get out of it. Last year when this subject arose, someone suggested filling your tub with cold water (same temperature as you will paddle in), open your bathroom windows, put on what you will wear paddling, immerse yourself in the tub and see how long you last before you can't stand it and get out. This has two advantages; you know whether your outfit will keep you warm enough to function if you dump, and you are in a safe place if your guess was wrong. I think for those who have never had the pleasure of dumping in really cold water, this is a great way to see what keeps you warm without endangering your life. Besides, you can then take a hot shower right away and warm up. Regards, Leander leander_at_worldnet.att.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I did the "jump in and test it" thing this weekend. I have an Ultrex Drytop over a pair of neoprene chest waders. Underneath, I wore a pair of long polypro bottoms. On top, a poly t-shirt, polypro heavy top, and a Polartec micro-chamois henley. I was amazed at how much flotation the waders really have (they were burped too). I had a tiny amount of leakage (about 1/2 cup) in the small of my back between the layers of PFD, drytop double skirt, waders, and neoprene sprayskirt. I will soon add a skirt to the top of the waders that can be rolled together with the inner drytop skirt for a good seal. Anyhow, I swam around for 8-10 minutes in 45* water with just that slight leakage, and I was not cold at all. With a warm body core and head, even my bare hands were warm enough to be able to sufficiently perform a rescue. I stood in the water for another 30 minutes (upper body out) and helped my brother with his C-to-C roll, and then the hands started to get a bit chilly. Put on the neoprene gloves, and played for another 15 minutes. Still not cold, but wet. Finally got out because I was hungry. I know with waders there are concerns (same with drysuit) of an air bubble in the legs, or with the suit getting flooded; hence my addition of the skirt. I'm a lot more comfortable with my clothing solution now than I was before I tested it. Shawn Woody wrote: >Second question (and open to all): Should the >paddling community define some "rules of thumb" <snip> > (vice the "jump in and test it" advice) Leander wrote: > I think for those who have never had the pleasure >of dumping in really cold water, this is a >great way to see what keeps you warm without >endangering your life. Besides, you can then take >a hot shower right away and warm up. -- Shawn W. Baker 0 46°53'N © 1999 ____©/______ 114°06'W ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^\ ,/ /~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ baker_at_montana.com 0 http://www.missoulaconcrete.com/shawn/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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