Has anyone tried out the Kayak sailing rig by Primex/Deluge. Just got a post card advertizement. It is strickly a down wind sail but may help me make longer trips in the future. Also has anyone ever tried a triyak the half kayak half catamarine(sp?) I have seen advertized? Bob Sitka P.S. To dave in Juneau...did you folks gets the wind and waves we got here yesterday? We had waves splashing over the breakwater and into the streets. it was wild to watch! *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rev Bob Carter wrote: > Has anyone tried out the Kayak sailing rig by Primex/Deluge. Just got a post > card advertizement. It is strickly a down wind sail but may help me make > longer trips in the future. I have tried their sail rig and was disappointed with it. Although they suggest that it is possible to do some limited off wind sailing I couldn't make it happen. Down wind it moved the boat okay but became dangerous for me whenever the water got a little rough. Since the paddle is occupied holding up the sail it is not available for bracing. It's not there for steering either so you've got to have a rudder. And woe is the paddler who tips over while using their outfit. A seriously encumbered paddle cannot a good roll make. In my limited experience, a kite is a better option for free downwind ergs. Larry Koenig *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard G. Mitchell, Jr." <mitchelr_at_ucs.orst.edu> > > While the venerable > Klepper AII can be sailed with the standard main without any lee boards > (presuming a normal load) to about 45 degrees off the wind, Matt's experiences > in doing so with a spinnaker are exceptional. We were unable to get either > spinnaker rig to provide practical power more than 30 degrees off ..... Are you talking about sailing 45 degrees from the direction the wind is heading to (downwind), or 45 degrees to the direction the wind is coming from (upwind)? Downwind I will believe, upwind I would take a lot of convincing. Allan Singleton Hamilton NZ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ralph wrote; ----- > I am glad someone brought up sailing with the Klepper jib alone, > although it did not seem to work all that well for Matt's fellow kayak > sailors. In my experience, and from what I know from other sources, jib > sailing can be a very effective sail even for beam reaching (90 degrees > to the direction of the wind) and works well on a broad reach (45 > degrees or so off downwind) and straight downwind running. > (Large SNIP) Ralph's comments remind me of Bill Luders. Bill took great glee in tweaking the rule writers and enjoyed playing with rigs. He once rigged his Luders 44 (a beautiful cold molded mahagony ocean racer) with a single very large genoa jib and no main. Not super successful in racing but it did work and hinted at possibilities. Needless to say the rule writers changed the rules to put an end to experimentation. One can easily think of some pros for a jib (or genoa jib a the case may be) as a kayak sail. Roller reefing, simplicity, easily removed and stored mast, ease of setting the sail, light weight with minimal spars and no battens, etc. One can also think of some cons. Not such good downwind performance, difficult to keep a tight luff without some extra rigging, and probably some problems with balance on a kayak. having the tack on line at deck level might help with some of this stuff. Anyway, as Ralph found out, it does work even if it ain't perfect. One can fairly easily (and inexpensively) make one of these sails at home so it makes nice sail to play with. If you make one be sure to keep the foot well above the deck. Kayaks have such low freeboard that the sail can scoop up a lot of water off the bow wave and send you into an out-of-control bow down situation. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Web site address, http://home.ican.net/~735769 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mark: Regarding the "ideal" sail and its features I would ask the following. 1. Keep mast sections separate, not shock corded together. Separate sections can be slid between the deck and ribs on Klepper AIs and AIIs so that all is out of the way and occupies no otherwise useful space. Cording together makes a clumsy bundle. I've experimented with telescoping boat gaffs as masts and they are hardly more compact than the standard Klepper mast and will not take much downhaul pressure before collapsing. Also I use the sections of my mast for other purposes. The topmost section attaches to a Feathercraft-type mast step "post" mounted ot my Pirmex boat cart and through a U bolt on one of the open arms. This makes an extremely sturdy baggage cart for moving loads in airports, to the bush plane and elsewhere my aging bones don't want to heft and haul those heavy boat and gear bags -- works on beaches too. Those familiar with the S-4 rig realize that even complete with the gaff and large main it is still a small package (not so the lee boards but those are unnecessary for long trip sailing). 2. The "best" sail is sitting in my basement about to go to Baja. (There are many, of course.) Unlike some, I enjoy sailing singles, especially folders and most of all the Klepper, using a sail many may not be aware of, a small Batwing of perhaps 15(?) square feet. This is a dream to use because of its stability and good manners as much a efficiency. Non sailors who borrow the boat for a spin rave at the way the mini-Bat accelerate the boat like a big displacement high torque V8, smoothly and wihout any sudden powering and depowering as (other) sails change shape as the wind rises, diminishes or changes direction. This is a *very* simple system but one I'm comfortable using for weeks. It has one reef which reduces to an even more docile assist. The advantage of this sail is its simplicy and stored size. It fits on a standard Klepper mast and is used unstayed. The whole package with blocks, halyard and sheet is 3.5 ft long, 3.5 inches in diameter and weighs 4.8 pounds when stored together. Stored separately it goes under deck and is never touched until desired, though traditionally I paddle with it in place. Some may want more power but for my purposes the predictability and ease of use of this system is unbeatable. The standard Klepper mast is easy to come by, but alas, that wonderful small sail is one of three on earth. Make some more some day? Lot's of Feathercraft K1 and Folbot Kodiak paddlers will thank you. 3. Don't mix genre. While it is possible to make a sail into an awning or saw a hard-shell boat apart to make it serve as hard luggage or a living room table the gains are not worth the loss. Awnings can be low quality tarp material; sails require sophisticated design and quality construction to achieve their maximum efficiency. Making sails is not easy (you know this). Klepper has refined their basic S-4 system for many years. A local seamstress and I set out to duplicate a Klepper jib using the best sailcloth we could buy. We found that the jib had subtle curves and was sewn in directions relative to the fabric weave that were more demanding to duplicate than was apparent. Sails are not sheets on a stick. So keep the sails and bivy awnings and sunshades separate. I want my awing up in camp and my sail mounted most of the time on long trips (always on a double folder) so no gain is achieved by duplicating items that serve different functions and pose radically different design challenges. Excellent tarps and awnings are now available from inexpensive sources such as LL Bean and Campmor. We need sails. 4. Now what I want from Santa... Let's imagine the best of all worlds where you could develop new products and keep up with the demands for existing ones. Santa would bring me a catalogue listing the following BSD items. a. The small Batwing such as I now have, with a 1.25 standard Klepper size mast and proper rigging in a sail bag and with brief and simple illustrated instructions. No wishbone necessary in my experience. Don't want a 20 square foot Bat reefed down. This is by comparison a much larger package than needed or convenient to store on a single. Cost under $300. b. (Hang on to your hat) A BSD tuned S-4 system of sails and rigging including one of Mark Eckart's line control boards (the one in his present catalogue is on my Klepper and is great). The venerable S-4 is perhaps one of the most versatile of all sailing systems for those who know how to use it effectively. When considering long flights with a folder were space an weight count the S-4 is much to be recommended. In places like the Bahamas with predictable winds day after day it is suitable even for beginners. Elsewhere, as Ralph notes, simple jib sailing will get you buy easily and safely. But imagine the best of all worlds -- an S-4 made by Mark and Sam with the best fabrics and hardware and maximized for efficiency. Sold including hardware and control board for under $500 complete. Special request: make the mast 1 3/8 inch in diameter so we can use it unstayed. This is a great safety advantage I believe. You asked what we wanted so there is one answer. I'll be good from now on, just on the chance. Rich Mitchell *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Richard G. Mitchell, Jr. wrote: > >> (LARGE SNIP OF WELL WRITTEN INFORMATION! Thanks Richard!) > 4. Now what I want from Santa... > Let's imagine the best of all worlds where you could develop new products and keep > up with the demands for existing ones. Santa would bring me a catalogue listing > the following BSD items. > a. The small Batwing such as I now have, with a 1.25 standard Klepper size mast > and proper rigging in a sail bag and with brief and simple illustrated > instructions. No wishbone necessary in my experience. Don't want a 20 square foot > Bat reefed down. This is by comparison a much larger package than needed or > convenient to store on a single. Cost under $300. b. (Hang on to your hat) A BSD > tuned S-4 system of sails and rigging including one of Mark Eckart's line control > boards (the one in his present catalogue is on my Klepper and is great). The > venerable S-4 is perhaps one of the most versatile of all sailing systems for > those who know how to use it effectively. When considering long flights with a > folder were space an weight count the S-4 is much to be recommended. In places > like the Bahamas with predictable winds day after day it is suitable even for > beginners. Elsewhere, as Ralph notes, simple jib sailing will get you buy easily > and safely. But imagine the best of all worlds -- an S-4 made by Mark and Sam > with the best fabrics and hardware and maximized for efficiency. Sold including > hardware and control board for under $500 complete. Special request: make the > mast 1 3/8 inch in diameter so we can use it unstayed. This is a great safety > advantage I believe. > I guess if "santa" is taking orders out there, I better get my name on the list also. :-) I too like the ideal of the smaller batwing, and with the smaller mast. Being the owner of a kodiak that sounds pretty good. I had about resigned myself to either making a small sail for it, or just using the small spinnaker. If I use the spinnaker, it would be without rudder AND not for cooler water. The Bahamas or Baja don't sound too bad either, while I'm dreaming. James, back to the water..(laundry day) > You asked what we wanted so there is one answer. > > I'll be good from now on, just on the chance. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
735769 wrote: > > After twenty - five years of competitive sailing I was kind of happy not to > worry about a sail but people seem to enjoy it so... Thoughtful post John. Sorry for the slow reply, been busy with work. I am a burned out sail racer but still a self confessed sailing chauvinist that will rig and sail almost anything that will float. > > I whipped up a spinnaker rig for a canoeist who did not want to portage a > mast. When he wanted to sail he cut down a sapling and fastened the halyard > block to the top. He then raised his sail when he needed it and threw the > sapling in the bush at the next portage. Like all simple things some people > could not resist carbon fiber masts etc. Most liked the simplicity of the > spinnaker over other rigs and learned to live with off wind sailing. > > For more extended cruising in kayaks and canoes my customer felt it would > not hurt to be able to sail closer to the wind since he traveled on lakes > and through lots of islands where the wind changes direction often an > rapidly making putting up and taking down the sail a bit of a pain. Being > cheap we decided not to buy a new sail and rig. We installed a"clew" in the > middle of the spinnaker with a tack line to the mast. Downwind he freed the > tack line to use the sail as a spinnaker. Reaching he pulled in the tack > line and folded the sail in on itself like a crude Ljungstrom rig. Easy Rider offers a small spinnaker that can be folded for reaching. It mounts on a fishing pole mast and is quite compact to stow and light weight. Some of those that have mentioned wanting to sail without a serious gear commitment might enjoy it. > > He claimed he could sail a bit into the wind even without lee boards and > this allowed him to sail between islands. He used it without a rudder but if > if one wnated to do a lot more sailing a rudder (and possibly leeboards) > would make sense with this kind of rig. > > The Ljungstrom rig allows reduction of sail area by half when reaching or > sailing into the wind. One can also rig a roller furling system that allows > you to get the sail completely out of the way quickly. You still have a > mast to fool with and I don't think the Ljungstrom rig has as much > efficiency as some rigs but if sailing isn't the primary objective it seems > to do the job cheaply and simply enough. > > I wish I could tell the curious where to find out more about the Ljungstrom > rig but I can't. I think I read about it in British yachting magazine some > years back. If I recall correctly some one had developed a more complex > system with twin booms or something. Maybe Mark will have some thoughts on > the pros and cons of the rig. I have given the Ljungstrom some thought and have built a kayak adaptation that is similar. Back in the 80's I mostly sailed a single without any outriggers and the hairiest times were in heavy winds, dead downwind. I wanted a rig for myself for those conditions and was inspired by two different rigs normally used on larger sailboats. One was the Ljungstrom for reasons mentioned above and the other was a sail configuration common on offshore cruising sailboats. The second set up is called running twins and consisted of twin headsails set wing and wing and with their clews helt out with whisker poles. The characteristic that the two rigs had in common were the dihedral shape of the sail presented to the wind. The dihedral is very stable and this is a desirable feature on a narrow unballasted boat. By borrowing the strong features of each rig and disgarding the negative features, I felt I could come up with a sail appropriate for kayaks in strong winds or light. The good features of the Ljungstrom rig aside from the dihedral shape was that it can be set to good effect on an unstayed mast for simplicity and that the sail had a relatively low center of effort. The height of the center of effort also stays stable when depowered in contrast to the spinnaker which gets higher off the water when the sail is released. The downside is that the Ljungstrom does not have any booms for the two sails. The boomless configuration provides for less stability and more difficult control. In addition, without a wide sheeting base such as on a sailing multihull, the sheeting angle makes it very difficult for the user to maintain anywhere near the full projected area of the sail while running downwind without using both hands or the paddle, both techniques that I personally try to avoid. The other negative of the Ljungstrom is reefing or furling by rolling around the mast. While I like sails that furl around the mast in certain applications, I feel that it can be a problem in a kayak. When the wind increases you would naturally roll in some of the sail to reduce the projected area. When the wind becomes too strong to sail the sail is rolled around the fully extended mast. It is then difficult to safely remove the mast and stow it on a kayak from the seated position, expecially in the rough windy conditions that may require it. This is less a problem in a canoe. By borrowing the twin booms from the running twins, it goes a long way toward taming the Ljungstrom. By combining the two sheet with a bridle into one sheet, control is improved and only requires one hand. When one wants to depower the sail it is simple to let the sheet out. As the sheet is eased, the projected area of the sail is reduced with good control and precision. Once the booms are rotated fully forward the sail is in a tame "off" position and requires no hand control while it flogs gently between the booms. If you want to then remove the rig, it can be dropped with a halyard in seconds and lashed to the deck or stowed below. A multisection mast can them be removed safely and stowed. The brief conclusion is that by combining features of two proven ocean sailing rigs, one can have a powerful, controlable downwind rig suitable for a kayak. By folding the same sail around the mast, some reaching ability is possible but the half size sail is small for any but stronger winds. > > I know of a fellow locally who has used a kite and he reports similar > experiences to Matt's. It looked like fun to me when I saw it done but more > trouble than it was worth. Maybe he just didn't have the hang of it. I feel the same as Matt about my experiences with parafoils. The conditions in which they have been effective for me are too limited even for their small size. There are some people that really like them but I do not know what is different about their kites compared to the less successfull ones. There is a small but growing group of sailors using traction kites on kayaks. They are not really versatile enough for kayak touring, but may offer astounding performance in some conditions. With a lateral resistance fin such as a leeboard, these kites also have some windward sailing ability. Reliable sources claim speeds of 15 knots sailing a double kayak. This is thrilling performance sitting that close to the water. Stay tuned. Mark > > Cheers, > > John Winters > Redwing Designs > Web site address, http://home.ican.net/~735769 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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