Bill Hansen wrote: "My luck at getting through to people using any technique at all has been remarkably poor, over a long lifetime of trying to get people to stop smoking, reduce alcohol intake, lose weight, exercise - even when they were actually suffering in terms of *pain* etc because they needed to make those lifestyle changes. Seems about half of them resented me, the other half patronized me, and pretty much everybody ignored me. Not a good record at all. So what do I know? - Bill" Hmm, Bill, based on the information above, I'd say you know EVERYTHING! (Running away now, to avoid the well-deserved kick. And note that I am also occasionally found telling people what's good for them.) Mark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ralph- Does your boathouse have a flier about cold weather safety or something that could be handed such groups? Maybe something that could reenforce what you are telling them? I am a really safety conscious person, I think, and am more likely to say something than not- I haven't really run into it while kayaking just because I haven't kayaked around other people all that much, but I run into it on hiking trails all the time where I meet people wearing inadequate clothing/water/etc etc. I try to do it in a friendly way- asking if they are cold and then telling them why that might be. If they aren't cold I tell them a scary story about hypothermia/dehydration etcetc or a scary fact of some kind. Maybe its not a very "nice" approach, but hopefully they'll remember it for next time. I have a hard time talking to the people who aren't friendly at first though... I do feel like a spoilsport though, but at least I feel like i'm trying to help... -A Ralph Said- "So some questions: 1. Should one speak up always when confronted with such situations of pretty off-the-mark paddling approaches? I don't mean talking with someone who is wearing a farmer john when you think the situation calls for a full suit or not having spare paddles etc. i.e. incremental differences rather than wholesale ones. I mean something very basic like seeing some one with jeans and windbreakers in Northeast paddling in December. 2. What is the best way of vocalizing the dichotomy between their oblivious paddling approach and a more prudent approach that experienced paddlers tend to adhere to? I have sometimes thought about things to say in imaginary scenarios but when confronted with a real situation, the words tend to come out wierd, i.e. doctrinaire sounding, pontificating, scolding, etc. Give it a try and you will see what I mean." *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> -----Original Message----- > From: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com [mailto:rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com] > > I guess like others on this list, I have run into situations when you > see someone doing something somewhat risky in sea kayaking > and you have > to decide whether to speak up or not. snip of some classic examples of oblivious paddlers > So some questions: > > 1. Should one speak up always when confronted with such situations of > pretty off-the-mark paddling approaches? I don't mean talking with > someone who is wearing a farmer john when you think the > situation calls > for a full suit or not having spare paddles etc. i.e. incremental > differences rather than wholesale ones. I mean something very basic > like seeing some one with jeans and windbreakers in Northeast paddling > in December. I tend to leave folks alone if they seem marginally prepared, but am more than willing to say something to an individual or a group if they are obviously placing themselves in harm's way - maybe they'll take my words to heart and maybe they won't, maybe they'll notice and pay attention to my example (don't get me wrong, I'm not Super Paddler, just safety conscious) and do something differently the next time they're out, or maybe, just maybe, my effort might prevent someone's death or injury. I can live with the idea that I may have offended hundreds of people if it saves a single life. > > 2. What is the best way of vocalizing the dichotomy between their > oblivious paddling approach and a more prudent approach that > experienced > paddlers tend to adhere to? I have sometimes thought about things to > say in imaginary scenarios but when confronted with a real situation, > the words tend to come out wierd, i.e. doctrinaire sounding, > pontificating, scolding, etc. Give it a try and you will see what I > mean. I usually opt for the "teach by asking questions" approach. It's not very confrontational and people tend to remember lessons that they've "discovered" on their own. Sometimes just going for a swim in my drysuit at the put-in is enough to start someone thinking. On rare occasion I have found myself actually saying to someone, "Do you really understand what you might be getting yourself into?...." I know that I came off sounding like a class-A A_at_#hole, but if that's the price - so be it. I can live with it and hopefully so will they. I don't usually paddle with a group and rarely have to deal with the issues that can cause so much tension and difficulty in informal group paddling. (And I avoid formal group _anything_ like the plague!) Dave Seng Juneau, Alaska *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
How timely, Ralph. I was just on the phone this morning with someone from the group discussing this very topic. Each year situations surface that cause us to rethink how we should/could handle various situations. Afterall, something that starts out minor in the morning can end up to be enormous in the afternoon after fatigue sets in or the storm hits. In the conversation this morning, we came to no definitive answers other than these occurances sure open our eyes and cause us to think through stuff that might happen. Personally, I believe I should speak up (and generally will with those who are new to the sport). But I have a lot of trouble speaking up with others who have a lot of outdoor experience. I guess I've gotten those rolled eyes and snorts at my suggestions enough that it causes me pause and internal distress. Debs Sandy Hook, NJ > ---------- > From: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com[SMTP:rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com] > Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 4:38 PM > To: nyckayaker_at_envirolink.org; paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subject: [Paddlewise] How and when to speak up > > I guess like others on this list, I have run into situations when you > see someone doing something somewhat risky in sea kayaking and you have > to decide whether to speak up or not. At one time, I was quite vocal > but felt increasingly that I was sounding like a spoilsport or grouch > and started laying off. > > The other day was an example. The Downtown Boathouse has a number of > kayaks that were donated by a publication with a stylistic approach to > recreation and other life style pursuits in its writing and layouts. The > understanding is that the magazine staff, which doesn't seem to have > anyone over 30 years old (although I am certain there are a few past the > Big Three Oh) can use these boats any time that they are not earmarked > for the public program. Trouble is that while they are enthusiastic and > gung ho, they tend to lack paddling skills, traffic & river savvy and > much in the way of an idea of cold water clothing and other safety > considerations for self rescue (I remember the astonishment of one of > the "senior" ones who had been paddling for a year when he first tried > pressing down with a borrowed paddle float, "Look at this, wow, it holds > you up!). On the latter, they may be learning but regular members of > the Boathouse constantly find themselves wincing over the impervious > outlook of the mag staff toward paddling. For example, one Boathouse > regular was about to go paddling at dusk when the mag crowd showed up > and was ready to embark without so much as a little keychain squeeze > light among them let alone even a modicum of adequate lighting. He > finally decided to say something and then lent them some extra lights he > has around. He paddled out with them to be around for just in case but > then got the willies over how they were paddling (I didn't ask what > exactly gave him the feeling) that he just left them after awhile. > > The other day it was my turn to play Scrouge with members of the young > mag staff. I was getting ready to go paddling when I saw them coming in > from a paddling trip. They were all wearing shorts and cotton T-shirts > and had to have landed obliviously next to a small group on the > launching dock that was going out in Polartec Thermal Stretch suits, > paddling jackets etc. I was readying my own shorty version (with > jacket) of the same. (Water temperature was around 55 degrees.) I > decided to speak up as diplomatically as I could but the words still > sounded like I was being a mean old crank or so it seemed to me in the > reflection of their wide open innocent eyes. I felt like a parent > saying wash your hands before supper, clean your room, etc. You know > the look kids give in such situations. I can imagine their saying to > each other when they got out of my earshot "Who was that old fart and > what was he talking about?" > > This is a problem experienced/prepared paddlers run into. I remember > reading in Anorak an article by a respected paddler typifying the > situation. He and a group of experienced paddlers were setting out at > the same time as another. The experienced kayakers had on dry suits and > wet suits and kayaks decked out with tow ropes, bilge pumps, paddle > floats, etc. The guy was in jeans and windbreakers with not much in the > way of safety gear evident. It did not occur to him that these > experienced guys may have known something he didn't about safety etc. > Kinda like the laws of nature and the sea did not apply to him. The > author of the article pondered to himself, agonizingly so, whether to > say something and finally did in as a non-confrontational manner as he > could...and he is a diplomatic mild-mannered fellow. > > So some questions: > > 1. Should one speak up always when confronted with such situations of > pretty off-the-mark paddling approaches? I don't mean talking with > someone who is wearing a farmer john when you think the situation calls > for a full suit or not having spare paddles etc. i.e. incremental > differences rather than wholesale ones. I mean something very basic > like seeing some one with jeans and windbreakers in Northeast paddling > in December. > > 2. What is the best way of vocalizing the dichotomy between their > oblivious paddling approach and a more prudent approach that experienced > paddlers tend to adhere to? I have sometimes thought about things to > say in imaginary scenarios but when confronted with a real situation, > the words tend to come out wierd, i.e. doctrinaire sounding, > pontificating, scolding, etc. Give it a try and you will see what I > mean. > > ralph diaz > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter > PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 > Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com > "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ************************************************************************** > * > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and > not > to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > ************************************************************************** > * > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ralph and the others all make good suggestions. For myself, as a white water paddler, who has paddled an open boat in class 4 water which, until we open boaters learned to roll our boats back up, was _very_ ill advised, I have had occasion to both hear advice from people who deemed themselves "superior" paddlers to me, and from people who were afterwards embarrassed they tried so hard to dissuade me from paddling a good and challenging piece of river, simply because I showed up in an open boat on a "decked boat run". At other times, I found myself looking at people who themselves appeared ill prepared to safely handle the demands of the river I was preparing to run that day, and I found myself pondering the best way to approach them, and warn them without appearing like some self appointed expert, who only wanted to come on like a smart ass at their expense. The memory of what it felt like to be on the receiving end of all that unwanted advice from people who had no idea what my own level of expertise was helped shape my own approach to the problem. What I do, and I only suggest it may work for somebody else, is I strike up a conversation with them, and befriend them, if I can. I ask them if they or any member of their party has run the river before, and how they found it, and what it was like the last time they ran it. I ask about what kind of water they like to run, how often they get to play, who's the big maven in their group, or the fellow who brought them to try this new river, if that's what I am hearing. I may even ask for advice about something unrelated to paddling, so as to lend status to the person I'm asking, and to kind of work a closer bond, as we all work to prepare for getting on the river. It doesn't really take as long as it sounds, but sometimes, I've asked my wife to run the shuttle with our car down to the takeout, if I'm not at a place where I feel I can speak more freely in the ten or twenty minutes it takes to collect everybody and set up our boats for the trip down. When I have had a chance to make a more accurate assessment of the possible mismatch between the skills and equipment, including cold weather protection, required by the river for a safe trip and the skills/knowledge/equipment presented by the paddler(s) at the riverside that morning, I then decide whether I think it is appropriate to try to say something. If I do, I always start out by telling my new friends the same thing, "I hate to say this, but I gotta tell you something, Bob. I'm very worried about you. (or, your group)" Then, in as non threatening and un-aggrandizing a manner as possible, I lay out what I'm looking at that scares me, using whenever possible what the people themselves have told me about their experience or their assessment of their own skills. If it's a matter of the wrong clothing for cold weather we even try to find somebody who has something more appropriate for them to wear in our own group, if it's not going to create a problem for the one who is loaning an extra piece of clothing from his dry bag. But if the paddler or group doesn't belong on the river, (something that can happen when there is a well publicized release on the river), then we put our heads together, and try to steer them towards a nearby river that is closer to their own skill level. Most of the times, that's all it took. As long as we gave them a reasonable alternative, we usually saw them change their plans. The only time I couldn't persuade an ill prepared group to change their plans to run the Lehigh River in PA on a heavy release was when the self appointed expert in their group was the one running the shuttle, and he talked the other three adult members into running the river anyway when he came back, even though they were massively inexperienced, and running with their kids in the bows of tandem open canoes, with nothing but dungarees on, in very cold spring temperature water, in aluminum canoes, without flotation. They started out before us, and they all flipped twice in the first two rapids, (we helped them to recover from their second one, only to learn that it WAS their second disaster) and they took their boats off the river and carried them a mile and a half back up to the put-in, thanking us for our concerns and regretting that they hadn't followed our group's advice in the first place. Anyway, that's been our experience, if it's of any use to the rest of you... BTW, Jan and I have sold our house in Great Neck, and are packing for the trip back to our other home in Goodyear, AZ. I'm going to miss running the waters around here, but there's a whole new world out west that I'm looking forward to learning about, and we'll probably get a place in Durango, CO for the summers. (It's got a class three river running right through the middle of town!) Larry Stone > 2. What is the best way of vocalizing the dichotomy between their > > oblivious paddling approach and a more prudent approach that experienced > > paddlers tend to adhere to? I have sometimes thought about things to > > say in imaginary scenarios but when confronted with a real situation, > > the words tend to come out wierd, i.e. doctrinaire sounding, > > pontificating, scolding, etc. Give it a try and you will see what I > > mean. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I agree with you that people may not want the advice. Having said that I will passionately ask yo to please start wearing a helmet when biking, since I would like to continue receiving your comments. I say I am asking passionately since a helmet saved my 13 year old son from serious head injuries and possible death this summer when he was hit by a car. He was medivaced by helicopter to the hospital. He was indeed lucky. He had also had the foresight to purchase a new helmet several days earlier when it was noticed his current helmet had a small crack. My brother races bikes. I ride. We all wear helmets. Wearing helmet and PFD's are individual choices. They do not in and by themselves negate the dangers of the sport(s), but they do reduce the risk of injury should a mishap occur. I have done my preaching for today. best wishes and safe paddling, bike riding, driving, et al to all, sid (Embedded image moved James Lofton <n5yyx_at_etsc.net> to file: 11/02/99 04:43 PM pic10264.pcx) To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net cc: (bcc: Sidney Stone/AMS/AMSINC) Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] How and when to speak up rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: > >BIG SNIP< > So some questions: > > 1. Should one speak up always when confronted with such situations of > pretty off-the-mark paddling approaches? I don't mean talking with > someone who is wearing a farmer john when you think the situation calls > for a full suit or not having spare paddles etc. i.e. incremental > differences rather than wholesale ones. I mean something very basic > like seeing some one with jeans and windbreakers in Northeast paddling > in December. I sometimes wonder if telling people what is good for them isn't counter productive, much of the times. People are snowed under with rules, legistation, laws, and orances sp?, until most just want a tiny bit of say so in what they do. I would guess paddling is one of those things. I'm not suggesting that there are right ways or safe ways to do it, just that sometimes being able to make a mistake or two is part of the learning curve. ..and if it's fatal, well..it was that persons choice. If someone sees everyone doing something one way and decides to do it someother way, don't you think maybe it was a concious thought? I can only conpare this to the motorcycle helment debate. Most would agree that a helment will protect your head..? , but I have seen people blasting along the hyways with one on and wearing shorts, no shirt, thongs, and have some little thing on the back, barefooted and a halter top. Got them helments on tho! :-( If the kayaking communty wants to have laws that says you have to dress a certain way and carry certain things, well fine. You still can't legislate common sence or even half way good judgement calls. My personal opinion is to help pass on help and information to those that ask, but don't try to cram it down those that likely don't. I've been told to dress for emersion. I know that, I've been in freezing water and work at not repeating the exsperance. I've also had 93 stitches in my face from a bike wreck, but I still won't wear a helment. If some clown came up to me at the lake and told me I wasn't dressed corectly.., on a good day I would just smile and walk away. I guess I just say lighten up or work to pass laws. They seem to be the American way. James, wouldn't have done anything if I'd waited for proper instruction(or approval) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** [demime 0.92b removed an attachment of type application/octet-stream which had a name of pic10264.pcx] *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: > > > >BIG SNIP< > > So some questions: > > > > 1. Should one speak up always when confronted with such situations of > > pretty off-the-mark paddling approaches? I don't mean talking with > > someone who is wearing a farmer john when you think the situation calls > > for a full suit or not having spare paddles etc. i.e. incremental > > differences rather than wholesale ones. I mean something very basic > > like seeing some one with jeans and windbreakers in Northeast paddling > > in December. Taking the non-PC approach. I'm a big fan of modern day darwinism. I'm also not a big fan of more restrictive, padded cell mentality laws. If someone wants to freeze to death cause they weren't wearing warm enough gear, all I ask is that not a lot of tax dollars get spent fishing the body out of the water and disposing of said body in a sanitary manner. I'm one of those that is against helmet laws, but pretty much always wear my own helmet. Against laws requiring you wear a PFD, but always wear mine. As I get older I lean more toward keeping myself safe and comfortable, but I'm not going to ram that down someone else throat. If a friend asks for my opinion, I'll strongly recomend using the right safety gear, but I'm not going to missionary the rest of the world to insist that they spend the cost of their kayak on "manditory" safety gear. Maybe if a few more clueless kayakers get eliminated from the gene pool, there will be less crowding and less litter at various favorite kayaking landings and campsites. If you really feel something needs to be said, About the farthest I would go is make sure that there are a bunch of well written, helpful, and informative of flyers and notices around the boathouse stressing how the right gear can make your paddling safer and more comfortable. Or if you are independantly wealthy, if you see someone without the proper gear, give them yours to make sure they are safe. ;-) dave -- Dave Uebele (daveu_at_sptddog.com) Spotted Dog Systems http://sptddog.com/daveu.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I have to speak up on this issue. I've been paddling less than a year, but I've been riding motorcycles since I was 13. 33 years now. Raced for a while. Have had some pretty spectacular wrecks and walked away. I never get on a bike without a helmet, and only very rarely without a leather jacket. I drive fast. I always wear my seatbelt. I don't smoke. I don't get in a kayak without a wetsuit and PFD. Of course, the water is generally about 55 in the pacific outside the golden gate. I always dress for the water temp. Having said that, I dislike having my freedoms legislated. I dislike laws that tell me what to do to save myself from myself. I would be against helmet laws except for one point, and one point only. I have, through my taxes, to pay for the idiot who merely becomes a vegetable in his wreck instead of having the good grace to die. I don't like that at all. What I would really like to see is total freedom coupled with total responsibility. Don't wear a helmet if you don't want too. But there should be no public care for head injuries resulting from the accidents of those without helmets. None. Period. Smoke if you want to. Just don't do it around me. I react in a very hostile manner to cigarette smoke. It gives me a nasty headache, and if you cause me pain, I'll be happy to share. One of the reasons that I like the outdoors is that I generally can avoid that stuff. I don't go where smoking is considered OK. I think that anyone who started smoking after 1970 should forever be debarred from suing the tobacco companies. You knew the probable concequences. You make a choice. Live or die by the choice. Paddle in any cloths you want. But make sure that the relatives pay for the funeral. SAR is a public responsibility. No more problem to pick up a dead body than a live one. Sound harsh? It is. However, I believe that this is the logical conclusion to those who wish to have their freedoms, unsullied by the results of their actions on the system as a whole. By the way, I REALLY don't want the coast guard to begin checking out my clothing on a regular basis due to legislation resulting from public reaction to the deaths of the ignorant or stubborn. *********************************************** * Matthew Blumenthal * * Fremont CA * * Potter, Guitar Player, General Computer Nut * * mattb_at_ix.netcom.com * * http://www.mattegrafix.com * * ICQ 12691259 * *********************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I tend not to preach to people unless I'm in a situation of instruction or group organisation/leadership. I've seen plenty of people on hiking trips and elsewhere completely underprepared. And on one occassion I've seen some of them get into serious trouble in some nasty weather in tasmania due to inadequate clothing. The numbers of them are overwhelming. I guess if I saw some real idiots preparing to launch I might go up and say something, but would try and make it conversational and not harp on on the subject of helmets - this is one I don't preach on (but i'll state my view here) . If people ask I'll tell them what I think. I wear a helmet kayaking (and bike riding) and in my view you are are a fool if you don't. that's just what I think, and people can take or leave it. I won't shove it down throats and I don't argue it. I've become more laissez faire over the years about a number of things like this, mainly due to the overwhelming forces of ignorance, apathy and bloody-minded individualism one is up against. Individualism is fine if you're paddling by yourself, but in a group situation it can be a problem. I've had a number of occassions on bike and in kayak where I've been glad of helmets. I've banged my head in shallow water in surf and fallen off my bike and hit my head more than once. The helmets have made these mere bumps. having said this I tend to run gauntlets, go in caves and surf. If you do these things a helmet is a good idea. Some people think gauntlets and caves are foolish - but they sure are fun. I'm not advocating some sort of strait-laced , ultra cautious, take-no-risks form of sea kayaking. I hate the hovering clouds of ignorant official intervention as much as any sea kayaker. But the main point for me is: I'm not interested in drowning from a relatively minor head blow. That would REALLY cramp my style. Nick I did write about it in 1994 - http://203.147.209.230/mag/21/helmet.htm *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
<<I sometimes wonder if telling people what is good for them isn't counter productive, much of the times.>> I agree so I don't go in this path. It isn't a rule or law. Forget what anyone has to do in any form. <<If someone sees everyone doing something one way and decides to do it some other way, don't you think maybe it was a conscious thought?>> Maybe it is just ignorance of why they are doing things the way they are. I think people with a bunch of gear are gear-heads to start with. If someone tells me what's up I'll listen. <<I can only compare this to the motorcycle helmet debate. Most would agree that a helmet will protect your head..? , but I have seen people blasting along the highways with one on and wearing shorts, no shirt, thongs, and have some little thing on the back, barefooted and a halter top. Got them helmets on though! :-(>> I firmly disagree with this argument. The risk of falling from a bike at 75 mph is OBVIOUS but 40 degree water is a hidden trap. For those who weren't here last March I'll recount the reaction I got from my trip report in really cold conditions. Not long, I promise <G>. I just didn't know that wet suits weren't enough. The first time I went out I was told we couldn't go out without them by an outfitter. But they let us go out with them so I thought wetsuits were what we needed. I was told by folk here, in no uncertain terms, that at that time of the year in the DC area a drysuit was essential to survival. We THEN made the choice to continue. We had not known, so telling us was educational. Once we KNEW we could decide. Until we KNEW we couldn't decide. If someone knows a thing they can make choices. If they don't know they can't decide because they don't' understand the options they have. This list and the CPA list educated us and we made decisions from what we were given. We now BOTH have drysuits. for this winter. We can offer that choice to others if we offer it as a choice for them. <<My personal opinion is to help pass on help and information to those that ask, but don't try to cram it down those that likely don't.>> How can you ask if you don't know you don't know? I agree with David Seng << I usually opt for the "teach by asking questions" approach. It's not very confrontational and people tend to remember lessons that they've "discovered" on their own. >> If people have to think, they will understand much more deeply than if you tell them a thing. They trust their own discoveries more than what others discover. Do you always tell . . . ? No, you say what is open to be said. You speak in ways your listeners can hear. Sometimes there is nothing they can hear and no way to help. You can harden the opinion of the ignorant so you say what you believe is right and let the rest go. If you have done your best that is all you can do in any situation. You can only act on what you know and how you understand it, just as they will. Joan Spinner *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
There are many people in any sport or endeavor who choose to ignore inherent risks. When the weather is cold outside these same individuals will most likely think twice about paddling. Cold water danger becomes less obvious when the weather outside is sunny and pleasant (as last weekend). I believe it is important for more experienced paddlers to mention the so easily overlooked or unrecognized danger. Some will listen, most will not. Reducing risk is paramount to the more experienced paddlers but lessens the thrill for the novice. Posting water temperature is a good start but experience is the best teacher. I think it's best to simply suggest there is a risk and advise the novice to be careful. Next time they don't listen throw one in and see how long they float !! (Only kidding) * Kevin Kehoe Wanda Canoe Club > -----Original Message----- > From: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com [SMTP:rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com] > Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 4:39 PM > To: nyckayaker_at_envirolink.org; paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subject: How and when to speak up > > I guess like others on this list, I have run into situations when you > see someone doing something somewhat risky in sea kayaking and you have > to decide whether to speak up or not. At one time, I was quite vocal > but felt increasingly that I was sounding like a spoilsport or grouch > and started laying off. > > The other day was an example. The Downtown Boathouse has a number of > kayaks that were donated by a publication with a stylistic approach to > recreation and other life style pursuits in its writing and layouts. The > understanding is that the magazine staff, which doesn't seem to have > anyone over 30 years old (although I am certain there are a few past the > Big Three Oh) can use these boats any time that they are not earmarked > for the public program. Trouble is that while they are enthusiastic and > gung ho, they tend to lack paddling skills, traffic & river savvy and > much in the way of an idea of cold water clothing and other safety > considerations for self rescue (I remember the astonishment of one of > the "senior" ones who had been paddling for a year when he first tried > pressing down with a borrowed paddle float, "Look at this, wow, it holds > you up!). On the latter, they may be learning but regular members of > the Boathouse constantly find themselves wincing over the impervious > outlook of the mag staff toward paddling. For example, one Boathouse > regular was about to go paddling at dusk when the mag crowd showed up > and was ready to embark without so much as a little keychain squeeze > light among them let alone even a modicum of adequate lighting. He > finally decided to say something and then lent them some extra lights he > has around. He paddled out with them to be around for just in case but > then got the willies over how they were paddling (I didn't ask what > exactly gave him the feeling) that he just left them after awhile. > > The other day it was my turn to play Scrouge with members of the young > mag staff. I was getting ready to go paddling when I saw them coming in > from a paddling trip. They were all wearing shorts and cotton T-shirts > and had to have landed obliviously next to a small group on the > launching dock that was going out in Polartec Thermal Stretch suits, > paddling jackets etc. I was readying my own shorty version (with > jacket) of the same. (Water temperature was around 55 degrees.) I > decided to speak up as diplomatically as I could but the words still > sounded like I was being a mean old crank or so it seemed to me in the > reflection of their wide open innocent eyes. I felt like a parent > saying wash your hands before supper, clean your room, etc. You know > the look kids give in such situations. I can imagine their saying to > each other when they got out of my earshot "Who was that old fart and > what was he talking about?" > > This is a problem experienced/prepared paddlers run into. I remember > reading in Anorak an article by a respected paddler typifying the > situation. He and a group of experienced paddlers were setting out at > the same time as another. The experienced kayakers had on dry suits and > wet suits and kayaks decked out with tow ropes, bilge pumps, paddle > floats, etc. The guy was in jeans and windbreakers with not much in the > way of safety gear evident. It did not occur to him that these > experienced guys may have known something he didn't about safety etc. > Kinda like the laws of nature and the sea did not apply to him. The > author of the article pondered to himself, agonizingly so, whether to > say something and finally did in as a non-confrontational manner as he > could...and he is a diplomatic mild-mannered fellow. > > So some questions: > > 1. Should one speak up always when confronted with such situations of > pretty off-the-mark paddling approaches? I don't mean talking with > someone who is wearing a farmer john when you think the situation calls > for a full suit or not having spare paddles etc. i.e. incremental > differences rather than wholesale ones. I mean something very basic > like seeing some one with jeans and windbreakers in Northeast paddling > in December. > > 2. What is the best way of vocalizing the dichotomy between their > oblivious paddling approach and a more prudent approach that experienced > paddlers tend to adhere to? I have sometimes thought about things to > say in imaginary scenarios but when confronted with a real situation, > the words tend to come out wierd, i.e. doctrinaire sounding, > pontificating, scolding, etc. Give it a try and you will see what I > mean. > > ralph diaz > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter > PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 > Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com > "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
When happening upon someone who's clearly putting him/herself at risk, I like David Seng's advice when he writes- << I usually opt for the "teach by asking questions" approach. >> And Steve Cramer's advice on using the "I" word rather than "you". This approach and the use of fliers/posters in the boathouse seem, to me, to have the best cance of reaching people. OTOH - My luck at getting through to people using any technique at all has been remarkably poor, over a long lifetime of trying to get people to stop smoking, reduce alcohol intake, lose weight, exercise - even when they were actually suffering in terms of *pain* etc because they needed to make those lifestyle changes. Seems about half of them resented me, the other half patronized me, and pretty much everybody ignored me. Not a good record at all. So what do I know? - Bill *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Bhansen97_at_aol.com wrote: > > When happening upon someone who's clearly putting him/herself at risk, I like > David Seng's advice when he writes- > << I usually opt for the "teach by asking questions" approach. >> > And Steve Cramer's advice on using the "I" word rather than "you". > > This approach and the use of fliers/posters in the boathouse seem, to me, to > have the best cance of reaching people. > > OTOH - My luck at getting through to people using any technique at all has > been remarkably poor, over a long lifetime of trying to get people to stop > smoking, reduce alcohol intake, lose weight, exercise - even when they were > actually suffering in terms of *pain*[snip] I've been watching this "advice to the clueless" thread with bemusement. Like bhansen, I earn a living getting other people to do things (I'm a teacher), and I have learned that I can not change someone else's behavior significantly, but ... *they can* ... if *they* want to. As a teacher, my most effective tactic is to engage others in a dialog in which they create the "answer" or revelation which they need to solve the problem at hand. Bhansen's example of trying to change the unhealthy behavior of others is particularly apt here, I believe. So do I follow my own advice? Sorta. When I see people at a putin who are clearly underprepared I talk to 'em, try to work up as much empathy as I can, and slide in comments about what the conditions will be like. Most of the time someone in the group is uncertain about whether they know what's up or not, and they are my entry to the rest. I figure if I sow the seeds of doubt (that what they are about to do is wise), the group dynamics when they are on the water are the most powerful tool to get them to reassess. OTOH, if they are totally hopeless, I do my best preacher-in-the-pulpit number on them in a (usually failed) effort to bludgeon them into staying on shore. Hardly ever do these groups get into massive trouble (AFAIK), so I guess nature is mainly forgiving. My best anecdote in this vein was the time I ran into an "official" group from a university from the Willamette Valley (near Portland, OR) headed up by an officious sort who was busy directing yak packing as I returned to the ramp from a day paddle. The ramp is on a huge, heavily mud-flatted, tidally-influenced bay (Willapa). And, the tide was falling, exposing acres of gooey mud flats, viewable from the ramp. As I passed this guy on my way to my rig, I mentioned that they'd better hustle, because they were about to lose their tide. His response? A completely blank expression and the phrase, "What's a tide?" -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I have to say I completely agree with Craig. Paddling on the Hudson is dangerous enough without the Boat House providing the means for people to commit suicide. If we were a bike club located near an interstate highway and inexperienced riders were permitted to use our bikes, we have rules that said 1) Helmets must be used when using our facilities. 2) Lights must be used at night. 3) Our facilities cannot be used unless participants agree to behave safely and agree not to ride their bikes in traffic on the highway. I wonder if the Boat House community is itself not being responsible by facilitating irresponsible boating behavior. I'm not a big law and order guy (I'm the one who got a Coast Guard ticket for paddling on the Hudson when Castro was in town...) but rules CAN save lives. I personally think we are waiting for a disaster to happen, and when it does, we will be faced with the difficult question of, why, WHY didn't we deal with the issue when we knew it was problem (like now). Dan Arshack *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> -----Original Message----- > From: Dan21660_at_aol.com [mailto:Dan21660_at_aol.com] snip > > I personally think we are waiting for a disaster to happen, > and when it does, > we will be faced with the difficult question of, why, WHY > didn't we deal with > the issue when we knew it was problem (like now). Something to bear in mind as this discussion continues - S&*T Happens. All the rules and advice and laws in the world can't prevent something bad from happening to somebody. The "issue" can't be "dealt with". All you can do is take steps to avoid it. When I worked as a life guard on the shores of Lake Michigan our job was to protect humans form the dangers of the water - but sometimes people died, despite our best efforts. My take on club rules, bylaws, etc, is that their only true function is to protect the entity (club, Downtown Boathouse, etc) from legal action after the fact. This forum is not the place for a discussion of self-responsibility and modern society. (American - hey, it's the only one I know! <g>; Although there are some who would say that Alaskan society differs significantly from American society...) Make an effort through putting up educational posters, offering classes, even mandate rules if you will - but, as has been stated here before, you can't legislate experience (nor it's corollary - wisdom). Bad things happen - sometimes even to the "experts". Dave Seng (feeling cynical today) Juneau, Alaska *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
David Seng wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dan21660_at_aol.com [mailto:Dan21660_at_aol.com] > snip > > > > I personally think we are waiting for a disaster to happen, > > and when it does, > > we will be faced with the difficult question of, why, WHY > > didn't we deal with > > the issue when we knew it was problem (like now). > > Something to bear in mind as this discussion continues - S&*T Happens. > All the rules and advice and laws in the world can't prevent something bad > from happening to somebody. The "issue" can't be "dealt with". All you can > do is take steps to avoid it. When I worked as a life guard on the shores > of Lake Michigan our job was to protect humans form the dangers of the water > - but sometimes people died, despite our best efforts. > My take on club rules, bylaws, etc, is that their only true function is to > protect the entity (club, Downtown Boathouse, etc) from legal action after > the fact. This forum is not the place for a discussion of > self-responsibility and modern society. (American - hey, it's the only one I > know! <g>; Although there are some who would say that Alaskan society > differs significantly from American society...) > Make an effort through putting up educational posters, offering classes, > even mandate rules if you will - but, as has been stated here before, you > can't legislate experience (nor it's corollary - wisdom). Bad things happen > - sometimes even to the "experts". > > Dave Seng (feeling cynical today) > Juneau, Alaska I've said my piece, so will only say I don't see anything cynical about what you have said. As I mentioned, there is a law against murder in ever state and some that carry the death penalty, but I havn't noticed that stopping it from happening. You mentioned that even the "experts" get into jams. Right on. You living in Alaska have a perfect chance to see that. Have you ever hiked where mountain goats or dall sheep call home? If you spend time there you will notice that even the best of the best stumble and fall, as evadinced sp? by the bones. Sure there are going to be some close calls or worse, but in the mist of all of it nice things happen. The magic of the outdoors. Read the "who's who" from Catherine Veraghen again. James *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
It seems to me that, for better or worse, a precedent is in effect that doesn't proscribe enthusiatic albeit not too swift (no paddler pun intended) paddlers from getting to the water from TDB. What's wrong with requiring that anyone who takes a boat out sign a "Hold Harmless" notice that is written in such a way as to explain what sensible paddlers (read - are you in your right mind!) should be doing. It could close by pointing out that, if your stupid enough to risk your life by not being properly prepared for the water conditions your getting into, your irresponsibility could end up ruining the experience for responsible paddlers. As the non-paddling community might get it into it's head that, if there are paddlers stupid enough to get themselves killed or put themselves into a near-death situation, they should be restricted or prevented from getting anyone else into that situation. Then, too, the rest of us can shake our heads knowingly and mouth the words "A-hole!" ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The form should also request a way to contact "next of kin." Chuck Holst -----Original Message----- From: cheruiz_at_juno.com [mailto:cheruiz_at_juno.com] Sent: Sunday, November 07, 1999 6:49 AM To: Dan21660_at_aol.com Cc: Craig243_at_concentric.net; rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com; nyckayaker_at_envirolink.org; paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] How and when to speak up It seems to me that, for better or worse, a precedent is in effect that doesn't proscribe enthusiatic albeit not too swift (no paddler pun intended) paddlers from getting to the water from TDB. What's wrong with requiring that anyone who takes a boat out sign a "Hold Harmless" notice that is written in such a way as to explain what sensible paddlers (read - are you in your right mind!) should be doing. It could close by pointing out that, if your stupid enough to risk your life by not being properly prepared for the water conditions your getting into, your irresponsibility could end up ruining the experience for responsible paddlers. As the non-paddling community might get it into it's head that, if there are paddlers stupid enough to get themselves killed or put themselves into a near-death situation, they should be restricted or prevented from getting anyone else into that situation. Then, too, the rest of us can shake our heads knowingly and mouth the words "A-hole!" *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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