-----Original Message----- From: Richard G. Mitchell, Jr. <mitchelr_at_ucs.orst.edu> To: Matt Broze <mkayaks_at_oz.net>; paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Date: Thursday, December 02, 1999 3:54 AM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] sail rigs >Matt Broze wrote: > >> Of the sails I've used liked a spinnaker best as it was so simple to use, >> powerful, didn't require too much bulky equipment like leeboard or >> outriggers, was easy to set up and take down, and could be configured in >> different ways. Who needs to sail upwind anyway when you have a paddle that >> can get you there easier and faster. > >These are really issues for Mark B. to address as the undoubted authority but >I'll add a bit. Spinnakers have distinct drawbacks over standard sails. They >tend to load and unload suddenly when the wind changes direction and apply their >force high on the mast. One design that shall remain nameless is down right >diabolical in applying sudden destabilizing loads in slight wind shifts. Why not let us know what you don't like by name, we might appreciate the warning. >But stability aside, spinnakers don't work very well for practical sailing. Three >years ago we tested two spinnaker rigs on Folbots and the standard Klepper main >in the Charlottes over a 5 day period. In all sorts of wind conditions, >backing, changes around headlands and the like the main was a better (though >smaller in size than either of the spinnakers). It could be deployed earlier >and left up longer, would depower simply by releasing the sheet (the spinnakers >would sometimes blow into the water [!!!] dragging the mast down with them >unless furiously lowered and carefully stowed) and did not flap or flail about. >Also the standard Klepper mast was smaller and lighter. Smaller and lighter than what? You don't say what spinnaker rig you used. Strangely my experience with the spinaker was with an old Feathercraft one. We were in the Queen Charlottes as well for (3 weeks). Two Feathercraft doubles and a Klepper single with all the trimmings (jib, main, boom, leeboards etc.) Our experience was just the opposite of yours. Those using the Klepper had all sorts of trouble in good winds and became so nervous downwind with the wing on wing position and constant risks of gybing (jibing) in shifting winds. Furthermore, it would take them so long to get set up compared to the simple Feathercraft mast and spinaker we had to wait again for them. When they did use it wing on wing they we no faster than us. However, they soon resorted just using the jib and stowing all the rest. We would leave them far behind with the spinaker and have to wait for them again. I could release one (hand held) line on the spinaker if things got too exiting or the wind shifted suddenly, and as I recall it was small enough and high enough it could not drag in the water at all. I was glad for the stability of the loaded double while using it in strong shifting winds (but if I had a single I would probably rather have paddled and surfed the following waves anyhow rather than deal with the sail). >While the venerable >Klepper AII can be sailed with the standard main without any lee boards >(presuming a normal load) to about 45 degrees off the wind, Matt's experiences >in doing so with a spinnaker are exceptional. We were unable to get either >spinnaker rig to provide practical power more than 30 degrees off. For places >like the Bahamas where the trades blow day after day from the NE to NW the >standard sail is fine, the spinnaker near useless. That said, Mark Balogh's >creation, the Twins (copied by Folbot) will work passably when folded behind the >mast for reaching. We used one of Mark's larger Twins in the southern Bahamas >last year (and wished every moment we had our Batwing) but it was acceptable. I have know doubt that the batwing is the superior sail but I want something relatively cheap and compact that I can use easily without having to pack along a lot of other gear like the poor Klepper paddlers did. Sounds like Marks "Twins" and John Winters "fold around the mast" Ljungstrom rig are similar. When I wanted to try to sail on a beam reach with the spinnaker I wrapped one side around the mast and then used it like a boomless main. I could sail at about 90 degrees relative to the wind. Even though my partner and I used our paddle blades as lee boards I doubt we were able to travel a course made good that high and our "makeshift main" was definitely not very efficient at that angle either. Okay designers out there. Here is the sail rig I want. Simple spinaker reefed with a sheath and ring you can pull down the mast. Shock corded 3 or 4 section mast for easy storage inside the kayak and to minimize the risk of dropping a piece overboard. Ability to double it over around the mast to form a main for broad reaches or to use fastened to the bow like a genniker. Next I want extra grommets on it and a shape something like a Moss Parawing to use with the mast pole and cords in camp as a relatively flap free rain or sun tarp. The 30d silicone sealed nylon that Stephenson and others now uses in tents might be a good material to keep it light and compact. If some one wants to take this idea and run with it please send me a prototype to test. Maybe and A-sail mast would adapt easier to a kayak (than a single mast with its need to be stepped) and provide two poles for camp uses too. Is that asking too much? If you could figure out how to step it on an inflatable even Audrey Sutherland would probably look at it enviously for its multi-purposes (and cheapskate that she is--will then go make her own;-). I trust Audrey will understand this is a compliment coming from me (but I wanted to make that clear to the rest of you). > >While there is fervor and amusement in not sailing with a rudder this is hardly >the way to maximize performance or enjoyment. Those with deep commitments to >avoiding rudders for spiritual or athletic reasons should by no means be tempted >to do so. But if you want to sail a kayak in comfort and a range of conditions >the right rudder is a must. I agree for most rigs a rudder is of benefit but the V-sail is easier to use without a rudder. If you sailboard, do you use a rudder? No, it would just complicate things and get in the way. Same with the pivoting based V-sail. >Snip< Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt Broze wrote: Hey Matt, thanks for the breif. I'll give it some thought to see how close one could come but I could use some more info and can maybe see some problems. Since some of your parameters are contradictory, I wonder if you are being entirely serious. It is not out of the question that you could have some of these things but you need to be a little more specific about some details. Whether there is a market out there for what you describe is another question but if you are serious, answer me a few more questions please. > Okay designers out there. Here is the sail rig I want. Simple spinaker > reefed with a sheath and ring you can pull down the mast. Shock corded 3 or > 4 section mast for easy storage inside the kayak and to minimize the risk of > dropping a piece overboard. Ability to double it over around the mast to > form a main for broad reaches or to use fastened to the bow like a genniker. > Next I want extra grommets on it and a shape something like a Moss Parawing > to use with the mast pole and cords in camp as a relatively flap free rain > or sun tarp. The 30d silicone sealed nylon that Stephenson and others now > uses in tents might be a good material to keep it light and compact. Well the spinnaker that probably could have wrapped around the mast, came with a shock corded mast and reefing sleave was available from Windspeed Designs for years but I think they may be out of business. Maybe you could find a used one somewhere. A similar sail could likely be made flatter cut to be used tacked out to the bow if you wanted to rig a tack outhaul line. We make our masts multisectional for stowage but decided that filling them with foam made sense in case you dropped a mast section in the water. Making shock corded masts with foam inside poses some problems. Dropping a whole non foam filled shock corded mast over the side is a problem. Given these problems, which would your prefer, a non shock corded foam filled multisection mast or a non foam filled shock corded mast? Some problems with your other wishes though might be that the parawing shape would be less desirable as a sail and would be large in overall dimensions for a given area which could cause control problems and require a tall mast and complicated rigging to support and trim it. The idea of using a sail as an awning would require a fairly large sail which is not a problem in itself but again might require a fairly tall and strong mast and step. Large sails can be troublesome on narrow unstabilized boats. George Dyson used some of his sails as tents or shelters if I recall properly. I was asked to do some proposals for rigs for some military organizations using folding kayaks and I figured that we could make them a TWINS™ sail out of waterproof cloth and set it up as a bivy tent. The Navy Seals were unable to understand a reason why someone would want a shelter. The NATO guys wanted to know if the mast base could be used as a weapons mount and we could have no radar reflectivity but all this stuff is doable at a price. Which brings me to the last question. If we could make you a sail that would power (which size boat?) your kayak on reaches and runs and it could have a shock corded or foam filled multisection mast, a reefing sleave, could reach or run with good manners and could be used as a sun shade,(if what ever size sail it was was big enough to be useful). If we could make you this sail, how big can it be folded, how much can it weigh, and how much is it worth to you retail? > If some one wants to take this idea and run with it please send me a > prototype to > test. Maybe and A-sail mast would adapt easier to a kayak (than a single > mast with its need to be stepped) and provide two poles for camp uses too. > Is that asking too much? If you could figure out how to step it on an > inflatable even Audrey Sutherland would probably look at it enviously for > its multi-purposes (and cheapskate that she is--will then go make her > own;-). I trust Audrey will understand this is a compliment coming from me > (but I wanted to make that clear to the rest of you). *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
You wrote: The idea of using a sail as an awning would require a fairly large sail which is not a problem in itself but again might require a fairly tall and strong mast and step. Why not simply double or triple up the sail by folding it and perhaps using velcro or some other means to hold its 'sail' shape and velcro would make it easy to take apart and use as an awning. I've also been mulling over making a spinnaker of some sort for my kayak. The inverted V sails seem ok, but after sailing for years, the spinnaker on a ruddered kayak should give some good speed and be a blast! Umbrellas just don't cut it! Susan -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net]On Behalf Of Mark Balogh Sent: Thursday, December 02, 1999 4:09 PM To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] sail rigs Matt Broze wrote: Hey Matt, thanks for the breif. I'll give it some thought to see how close one could come but I could use some more info and can maybe see some problems. Since some of your parameters are contradictory, I wonder if you are being entirely serious. It is not out of the question that you could have some of these things but you need to be a little more specific about some details. Whether there is a market out there for what you describe is another question but if you are serious, answer me a few more questions please. > Okay designers out there. Here is the sail rig I want. Simple spinaker > reefed with a sheath and ring you can pull down the mast. Shock corded 3 or > 4 section mast for easy storage inside the kayak and to minimize the risk of > dropping a piece overboard. Ability to double it over around the mast to > form a main for broad reaches or to use fastened to the bow like a genniker. > Next I want extra grommets on it and a shape something like a Moss Parawing > to use with the mast pole and cords in camp as a relatively flap free rain > or sun tarp. The 30d silicone sealed nylon that Stephenson and others now > uses in tents might be a good material to keep it light and compact. Well the spinnaker that probably could have wrapped around the mast, came with a shock corded mast and reefing sleave was available from Windspeed Designs for years but I think they may be out of business. Maybe you could find a used one somewhere. A similar sail could likely be made flatter cut to be used tacked out to the bow if you wanted to rig a tack outhaul line. We make our masts multisectional for stowage but decided that filling them with foam made sense in case you dropped a mast section in the water. Making shock corded masts with foam inside poses some problems. Dropping a whole non foam filled shock corded mast over the side is a problem. Given these problems, which would your prefer, a non shock corded foam filled multisection mast or a non foam filled shock corded mast? Some problems with your other wishes though might be that the parawing shape would be less desirable as a sail and would be large in overall dimensions for a given area which could cause control problems and require a tall mast and complicated rigging to support and trim it. The idea of using a sail as an awning would require a fairly large sail which is not a problem in itself but again might require a fairly tall and strong mast and step. Large sails can be troublesome on narrow unstabilized boats. George Dyson used some of his sails as tents or shelters if I recall properly. I was asked to do some proposals for rigs for some military organizations using folding kayaks and I figured that we could make them a TWINS™ sail out of waterproof cloth and set it up as a bivy tent. The Navy Seals were unable to understand a reason why someone would want a shelter. The NATO guys wanted to know if the mast base could be used as a weapons mount and we could have no radar reflectivity but all this stuff is doable at a price. Which brings me to the last question. If we could make you a sail that would power (which size boat?) your kayak on reaches and runs and it could have a shock corded or foam filled multisection mast, a reefing sleave, could reach or run with good manners and could be used as a sun shade,(if what ever size sail it was was big enough to be useful). If we could make you this sail, how big can it be folded, how much can it weigh, and how much is it worth to you retail? > If some one wants to take this idea and run with it please send me a > prototype to > test. Maybe and A-sail mast would adapt easier to a kayak (than a single > mast with its need to be stepped) and provide two poles for camp uses too. > Is that asking too much? If you could figure out how to step it on an > inflatable even Audrey Sutherland would probably look at it enviously for > its multi-purposes (and cheapskate that she is--will then go make her > own;-). I trust Audrey will understand this is a compliment coming from me > (but I wanted to make that clear to the rest of you). *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Susan Watters wrote: > > You wrote: > > The idea of using a > sail as an awning would require a fairly large sail which is not a > problem in itself but again might require a fairly tall and strong mast > and step. > > Why not simply double or triple up the sail by folding it and perhaps using > velcro or some other means to hold its 'sail' shape and velcro would make it > easy to take apart and use as an awning. I've also been mulling over making > a spinnaker of some sort for my kayak. The inverted V sails seem ok, but > after sailing for years, the spinnaker on a ruddered kayak should give some > good speed and be a blast! Umbrellas just don't cut it! > > Susan Susan, I think you might end up with a sail that was too heavy to sail well and an awning that was less than ideal. If you just want a light weight downwind sail, the sail itself only has to weigh ounces. You can use lighter cloth for a small sail than what would make a durable awining. I don't think that the weight savings of combining the sail and a tarp may be good economy. I might try to use the mast as an awning pole but I personally would carry a nice light weight sail and a good purpose built awning. Mark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt Broze wrote: SNIPPED > they we no faster than us. However, they soon resorted just using the jib > and stowing all the rest. We would leave them far behind with the spinaker > and have to wait for them again. I am glad someone brought up sailing with the Klepper jib alone, although it did not seem to work all that well for Matt's fellow kayak sailors. In my experience, and from what I know from other sources, jib sailing can be a very effective sail even for beam reaching (90 degrees to the direction of the wind) and works well on a broad reach (45 degrees or so off downwind) and straight downwind running. I have not done much sailing, just enough to know how to write about it with the help of good friends like Mark Balogh. But I do recall my first week of sailing in which going on a broad reach with a jib in which my wife and I in a double Klepper were able to keep up with a smallish Batwing on a double Klepper. Other factors may have accounted for this other than sail. Perhaps the expert sailor in the other boat wasn't all that expert with this particular sail. Also the other boat had the group's leader in it who besides possessing a heavy ego also had a disproportionately high amount of the groups gear, not that my wife and I in our Klepper double were not carrying a load as well. We knew next to nothing about sailing (I still don't; she knows a lot more). But we operated as an effective team. She worked the jib sheet (sheet is sailing parlance for the line controlling a sail) to perfection with a subtle touch on keeping the jib filled with just the right amount of wind. And me? I was controlling the rudder. I figured that the expert sailor in the other Klepper knew how to get the most out of the wind. All I had to do was to make certain that our boat was always on a parallel line with his heading. As he varied his heading, I duplicated it like a monkey mimicing human gestures. We went for several miles that way. The leader never turned around all that time convinced that he had pulled out well ahead of the group (In his defense it was the last day of an 8 day trip and he may have been tired of dealing with our motley group). Meanwhile we were holding our position about 100 feet behind him, a respectable distance for observing his movements. When he came close to the takeout beach and finally turned around, the look of surprise to see us just behind him was priceless. It was "Where the hell did these non-sailing bozos come from?" Jib sailing a Klepper offers a lot of advantages. Less setup time. Less complex. Smaller package to take with you when travelling and to stow away in your boat. And less liable to tip over than the full Klepper S-4 rig which has a soft pocket up high on the mast which can flip you if a gust hits up there with you unawares (listen to Ralph talk as if actually knows anything about this!:-)) I know that Gail Ferris was very big on the idea of jib sailing in her northern trips. She even cut down the sail area of the jib because she was afraid too much area might tip her single Klepper. ralph diaz *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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