<Don't try to compromise with a coated drysuit. It won't breathe, and you'll be so uncomfortable that you won't use it.> After several hours of paddling in my coated nylon Kokatat MultiSport drysuit I am completely comfortable. I do not even notice that my polyester underwear is wet until I remove the drysuit. As long as you undress in a warm place, it is no problem. Ken Cooperstein *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Kenneth Cooperstein wrote: > > <Don't try to compromise with a coated drysuit. It won't breathe, and > you'll be so uncomfortable that you won't use it.> > > After several hours of paddling in my coated nylon Kokatat MultiSport > drysuit I am completely comfortable. I do not even notice that my > polyester underwear is wet until I remove the drysuit. As long as you > undress in a warm place, it is no problem. That has been my experience too, i.e. my layers are wet but I am comfortable. I refer to this as a comfortable relative level of humidity. As long as that wet stuff is not exposed to wind and air, which it isn't inside the dry suit, then it feels just fine. Some people have raised a question about whether this insulation loses some of its insulation benefit when wet. I don't believe so. To my knowledge, I have not been any colder in cold water than a person next to me in Goretex suit with similar insulation. Breathability is a relative thing. Wearing a PFD and sprayskirt on your torso certainly reduces the breatability benefits of Goretex in that area; the rest of you inside a non-breathing boat also doesn't do as much ventilating as it would in the open air. Where the Goretex is superior is once you are out of your boat and moving about on land. Then the moisture does start working itself out, albeit at the price of some loss of heat. That moisture is driven out through the Goretex pores by heat which escapes along with the moisture. I have a coated suit and am pretty happy with it. Were I to be in the market today, I would probably go the extra bucks for the Goretex because of the way the insulation will dry quite a bit while you are drinking some hot cocoa or tying your boat to the car rack or disassembling it if a foldable. From what I have seen, you could, after 15-20 minutes of this, take the Goretex off and the layer inside would be dry enough to drive away with just the bunny suit on (or with a jacket for modesty over it). When emerging from a coated dry suit, you do want to also change your inner layer as it can be quite soaked. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 1/11/00 11:04:23 AM, cprstnc1_at_optonline.net writes: << <Don't try to compromise with a coated drysuit. It won't breathe, and you'll be so uncomfortable that you won't use it.> After several hours of paddling in my coated nylon Kokatat MultiSport drysuit I am completely comfortable. I do not even notice that my polyester underwear is wet until I remove the drysuit. As long as you undress in a warm place, it is no problem. >> I agree with Ken. I've done about 75 miles, 6 paddles of 6-8 hours inside my Zip-Loc bag and I'm very happy. I have heard all this stuff about the non-breathing of the coated fabric. My real complaint is the same one people in the $600+++ suits have of the noise of the fabric. I wear X layers of polipro and such so i'm not even tempted to open my suit except to take it off. We won't talk about getting our feet out of the laytex gaskets, but that is getting easier. I spent at least 20 minutes swimming and standing in 43 degree water this weekend and then I stood around out in the open with just the skirt and pfd on without getting chilled in the wind. In fact I had enough heat to warm my hands, which had about given in with the cold water. I hear coated is bad when out of the boat from wind chill on the suit that is over wet clothes. I haven't experienced much of that but I have seen people in GorTex huddled behind me in the wind. $310 for my suit is well worth it. I figure I've thrown away about $110 on gloves alone. I love my $310 coated, drysuit. I do plan to have it retrofitted with laytex booties after this season is over and I can be without it. I would go for the relief zipper but I still can't figure out how a relief zipper would do much good with 2 layers of men's long johns on <G>. Joan Spinner *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
JSpinner_at_aol.com wrote: SNIPPEDD > I hear coated is bad when out of the boat from wind chill on the suit > that is over wet clothes. I haven't experienced much of that but I have seen > people in GorTex huddled behind me in the wind. I am not certain why anyone would say that the coated stuff makes you feel cold because of the wet insulation underneath. Your experience, my experience, points to this being a fallacy. Wet stuff is not going to chill unless it is exposed to air...coated is fully air proof. Goretex is not since it does have pores that breath and let heat out with the moisture being transported outward. That is why normally people with about the same metabolism will want a bit more insulation under a Goretex dry suit than under the coated one at least as far as the question of feeling chilly outside of your boat. ralph -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I got the drop seat, and I wear a full polartec suit unde it, which also has a drop seat. I don't think I want to ask what you do instead.... I would go for > the relief > zipper but I still can't figure out how a relief zipper would do > much good > with 2 layers of men's long johns on <G>. > > Joan Spinner > ************************************************************************* ** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author > and not > to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > ************************************************************************* ** ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This is just me thinking out-loud about gortex... It would seem when you are paddling hard your body needs to get rid of excess heat and does so by sweating which releases heat energy by vaporizing water from your skin. Supposedly gortex helps lets out that vapor, which seems good because it gets rid of the excess heat. In a coated suit, you're nice and warm too, maybe warmer, when you're paddling, but it would seem when you stop paddling, all that soaked clothing around you now acts to conduct heat away at a much greater rate than if it were dry, air filled, insulating clothing. Granted, soaked polypro inside a nylon shell is better than nothing at all should you take a nasty dip, but Gortex would seem to be much superior in performance. In real life, I've found gortex doesn't breath as well as you might hope because of the temperature gradient across your undergarments between your skin and the outer gortex. Vapor seems to end up condensing inside the gortex, making you soaked anyway. In other sports like skiing and running I don't usually use Goretex because I need maximum breathability. But paddling one needs waterproofness so the Goretex is a good compromise I guess. Tom York, ME *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: tompage < > In a coated suit, you're >nice and warm too, maybe warmer, when you're paddling, but it would seem >when you stop paddling, all that soaked clothing around you now acts to >conduct heat away at a much greater rate than if it were dry, air filled, >insulating clothing. Granted, soaked polypro inside a nylon shell is better >than nothing at all should you take a nasty dip, but Gortex would seem to be >much superior in performance. Not really. For one thing, all that moisture is at or close to your body temperature. There's no heat gradient to speak of that would draw more heat from you. Heat losses to the outside are mainly radiation and convection. Convection is almost absent since the impervious drysuit layer prevents air movement over the wet clothing, hence also no loss via evaporation (which takes heat away). I'm generally toasty warm in my drysuit when I'm quiet, even if I'm sweatsoaked on a cold day. If I hit the water there's some small loss which is quickly replenished from my body -- but far less than otherwise. JP *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: tompage: > > In a coated suit, you're > nice and warm too, maybe warmer, when you're paddling, but it would seem > when you stop paddling, all that soaked clothing around you now acts to > conduct heat away at a much greater rate than if it were dry, air filled, > insulating clothing. Granted, soaked polypro inside a nylon shell is better > than nothing at all should you take a nasty dip, but Gortex would seem to be > much superior in performance. My experience corresponds to your expectations. I disagree somewhat with Joe Pylka's analysis, although not with his observations. When I start a paddleday, my fleece is dry inside my PJ, and I am quite warm. At the end of a paddleday (assuming I have been active enough to build up a good sweat), my fleece is damp, and *at rest* I am not **quite** as warm as I was at the start of the day, *at rest.* Still OK, but it is clear the fleece does not insulate as well. (Joe and I have about the same experience, I think.) Why is the insulation value reduced? Water, in vapor form, is a better heat *transfer* agent than dry air. (The physics would bore everybody -- has to do with its polarity vis a vis nonpolar nitrogen and oxygen.) The mechanism of heat transfer exploits the thermal gradient between your (hotter) skin and the (cooler) inner surface of the PJ. (Pylka said "no heat gradient to speak of." I disagree with that.) The main reason wet clothing under a water-impermeable shell still insulates pretty well, as Joe said, is that evapotranspiration is *not* a mechanism of heat transport away from your wet skin -- because *everything* inside the PJ is pretty close to saturated with water vapor (and droplets). With *Goretex,* that last statement is not quite true, owing to the slow migration of water vapor out of the PTFE membrane, and consequent heat loss -- that water was generated as *liquid* when it exited your skin, so the latent heat of vaporization has to be supplied somewhere to get it to vapor. That heat comes from you. With a totally water-vapor impermeable PJ, there is no evaporation of *your* moisture from the inside of the PJ to the outside, so the last statement in the previous paragraph is completely true. I use Goretex for comfort and because at the end of a paddleday, my fleece is dryer than it would be under totally-water-impermeable clothing. I can slide out of the PJ and avoid switching to fresh clothing. Saves hassle and I do not have to maintain two sets of togs on a multiday trip. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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