In reading about rolling, watching some demonstrations, and actually taking lessons I have come across a variety of rolls. I am not going to devote all of my paddling time to learning 20+ rolls, but I do want to try to pick a couple to work on. Since I use a Greenland paddle, I have started with what Dowd's book calls a standard Greenland roll (extended paddle, paddle providing lift during the sweep to a perpendicular position, then hip action, then a layback with some addtional downward pressure on the blade in the water). The only other roll that seems to be really useful is a hand roll (this is actually more of a question than statement). Some of the questions I have are: 1. What are the benefits of having both an onside and offside roll? Is it worth the effort? 2. Is a hand roll really useable in the kind of conditions in which you would likely get turned over? Would it take an inordiante amount of practice to develop the hand roll to this point? 3. Are there condtions where the so called standard Greenland roll will not work well? What roll would work better in these condtions? 4. Is there another roll that I should be working on and why? Your opinions and experiences would be greatly appreciated. P.S. I realize that I am not likely to go directly from the extended paddle roll to a hand roll. I imagine I would have to work through a standard screw roll, and then to a half paddle roll in order to improve my hip action to the point that I could even attempt the hand roll. Mark J. Arnold MJAkayaker_at_aol.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Most everything we do in a kayak is based on: 1. Speed, movement, motion, momentum <slow to fast, forward, reverse or sideways> 2. Angle, course, heading, point A to point B <360º horizontal plane> 3. Tilt, edge, lean, support <360º vertical plane> Rolling is a function of #3. It is controlling the tilt of your vessel. The more talented and practiced you are at rolling the more tricks you can pull outta your hat. The better you will *understand* balance, support, your body and boat. IMHO try and develop more than just a layed back roll. Just add more hip snap and you will find less need to *lay back*. Also definitely work on BOTH sides right from the getgo. Sidesurf right = Roll right. Sidesurf left = Roll left. PERIOD. You probably <hopefully> WANT this skill. The sooner you develop a good side/ bad side habit the harder it is to break. Right ?, Left ? you need equal support. Especially with a Greenland stick. <my paddle of choice> Steve Scherrer <16 year roller> Alder Creek Kayak and Canoe 250 NE Tomahawk Isle Dr Portland, OR 97217 Phone: 503.285.0464 Fax: 503.285.0106 Web site: http://www.aldercreek.com Email: acks_at_teleport.com ______________________________________________ ----- Original Message ----- From: <MJAkayaker_at_aol.com> To: <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2000 8:55 PM Subject: [Paddlewise] How many rolls? > In reading about rolling, watching some demonstrations, and actually taking > lessons I have come across a variety of rolls. I am not going to devote all > of my paddling time to learning 20+ rolls, but I do want to try to pick a > couple to work on. Since I use a Greenland paddle, I have started with what > Dowd's book calls a standard Greenland roll (extended paddle, paddle > providing lift during the sweep to a perpendicular position, then hip action, > then a layback with some addtional downward pressure on the blade in the > water). The only other roll that seems to be really useful is a hand roll > (this is actually more of a question than statement). Some of the questions > I have are: > > 1. What are the benefits of having both an onside and offside roll? > > Is it worth the effort? > > 2. Is a hand roll really useable in the kind of conditions in which you would > likely get turned over? > > Would it take an inordiante amount of practice to develop the hand roll to > this point? > > 3. Are there condtions where the so called standard Greenland roll will not > work well? > > What roll would work better in these condtions? > > 4. Is there another roll that I should be working on and why? > > Your opinions and experiences would be greatly appreciated. > > P.S. I realize that I am not likely to go directly from the extended paddle > roll to a hand roll. I imagine I would have to work through a standard screw > roll, and then to a half paddle roll in order to improve my hip action to the > point that I could even attempt the hand roll. > > Mark J. Arnold > MJAkayaker_at_aol.com > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not > to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
You may want to consider learning to roll with your spare paddle, rather than your hands. Your spare paddle can be a Greenland-style "storm" paddle. Because it has a shortened loom, the storm paddle fits nicely on your back deck and forms a reliable backup, should you lose your main paddle and capsize. BTW, the storm paddle also serves as a nice backup for learning the hand roll. If your hand roll fails, you can grab your storm paddle and roll up. Gary Doran Victoria, Canada MJAkayaker_at_aol.com wrote: > In reading about rolling, watching some demonstrations, and actually taking > lessons I have come across a variety of rolls. I am not going to devote all > of my paddling time to learning 20+ rolls, but I do want to try to pick a > couple to work on. Since I use a Greenland paddle, I have started with what > Dowd's book calls a standard Greenland roll (extended paddle, paddle > providing lift during the sweep to a perpendicular position, then hip action, > then a layback with some addtional downward pressure on the blade in the > water). The only other roll that seems to be really useful is a hand roll > (this is actually more of a question than statement). Some of the questions > I have are: > > 1. What are the benefits of having both an onside and offside roll? > > Is it worth the effort? > > 2. Is a hand roll really useable in the kind of conditions in which you would > likely get turned over? > > Would it take an inordiante amount of practice to develop the hand roll to > this point? > > 3. Are there condtions where the so called standard Greenland roll will not > work well? > > What roll would work better in these condtions? > > 4. Is there another roll that I should be working on and why? > > Your opinions and experiences would be greatly appreciated. > > P.S. I realize that I am not likely to go directly from the extended paddle > roll to a hand roll. I imagine I would have to work through a standard screw > roll, and then to a half paddle roll in order to improve my hip action to the > point that I could even attempt the hand roll. > > Mark J. Arnold > MJAkayaker_at_aol.com > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not > to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
MJAkayaker_at_aol.com wrote: > > 1. What are the benefits of having both an onside and offside roll? > Is it worth the effort? Let me recount a couple incidents from my own experience which might shed some light on your Q. Two years ago I was paddling with a group of friends (all capable experienced paddlers) back from a "park & play" area. The air temp. was in the 40s, water temp. was below 40. The wind was + 25 kts. from astern and we were spread about 100 yds. apart surfing the 1~2 ft. wind waves along the shore (100~200 yds. out). I was pulling sweep. The paddler in front of me, an experienced WW playboater with a onside and offside bombproof roll (wearing a ((shorty??)) wetsuit instead of a drysuit at the time - just a tad over confident), was working a little harder than the rest of us to keep his 21' long Seda Glider stable in the short chop. For whatever reason (may have air braced), he capsized - surprising but certainly no big deal so far. I turned and sprinted in his direction as a standard precaution. I watched him go through his 1st sweep roll (down wind) with no luck. I watched his second attempt at the same (downwind) also fail. His third and last was a fully extended pawlata, which also attempted on the downwind side, failed. His paddle shaft had gone vertical before he could hip snap on all three attempts. He popped out of his boat, more frustrated than he was cold. I pulled up, got the water out of his boat and him back in it and rejoined the group (who'd heard my yell but not my whistle, a Nexus(? - flat 2 chamber - since lost). In debriefing the incident, he had become frustrated with his paddle blade diving so suddenly three times in a row. In retrospect, it was realized that he had been drifting (capsized) with the wind, broached to the wind waves, much faster than the water speed. And there was nothing in the way of a downwind roll that was going to save him the embarrassment (never mind the cold) of coming out of his boat. He never thought of switching sides to his upwind side. Though he does now... In my own experimentation in similarly 'flat' windy conditions; not only have I found that upwind rolling is the only ticket to getting back upright while staying in a warm dry boat, but that it becomes _much_ easier to roll (on the "off" side) when conditions are pushing you on your roll up side. [I haven't tried it yet, but I think I might be able to pull of a hand roll in surf (on my off side) rolling up into the wave, even though I still have yet to hand roll my Khatsalano on flat water] > 2. Is a hand roll really useable in the kind of conditions in which you would > likely get turned over? O.K. Incident #2: During my BCU 4 Star last November, our group was paddling in 3~4' confused surf when a rescue presented itself. As the assistant instructor latched onto the rescuee's boat, I was instructed to hook onto the instructor's boat and tow both out of that section of the break. As I was paying out the first yard or two of line by hand, I looked up into a breaking dumper, grabbed my paddle and tried to steal a quick stroke before digging into the wave face. With the blade at some wrong angle, the blade dived and so did I. After spending a moment to figure out which way I was tangled up in my own tow line (and therefore which way I'd have to roll back up), I timed it out and rolled up (easily) on my offside. Though (#1) these conditions are not 'typical' for many paddlers to go out in, they are pretty typical for getting even crusty old (or young) storm paddlers turned over in. And in an instance such as this, I could have very easily lost my paddle (had it not been leashed), been back surfed (inverted or no) further over my tow line so that it hung up around my body, or, into the company I was trying to tow out, or all three. If any of those had happened, it could prove difficult to impossible to move a paddle through its roll arc (if it were there in the first place). The hand roll might also prove more successful if timed with the wave and finished in storm position and might buy enough time (air) before getting knocked back over to assess the situation topside and determine what needs doing. > Would it take an inordiante amount of practice to develop the hand roll to > this point? How much time do you consider inordinate? In the meantime, I'll keep striving to get a working handroll down (in a sea kayak). > 3. Are there condtions where the so called standard Greenland roll will not > work well? I'll defer the rest to the toothpick users out there, if you don't mind. > > What roll would work better in these condtions? > > 4. Is there another roll that I should be working on and why? > > Mark J. Arnold > MJAkayaker_at_aol.com > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not > to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> The paddler in front of me, an experienced WW playboater with a "bombproof" onside > and offside bombproof roll, was working a little harder than the rest of us to keep > his 21' long Seda Glider stable in the short chop. "While Seda advertises 19' it is now actually 19' 2" (and the older higher volume Glider was 19' 8") not the 21' you wrote (and may want to correct)." -Matt Broze Thanks for setting me straight Matt - I have an age old Seda catalogue around here somewhere, and next time I include a stat., will (attempt to) research it first. ;-) BTW, the whistle which was mentioned in the post _was_ a Nexus. It came free with the PFD and was worth exactly that. Well, back to lurking - err, make that working, Vince *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: <MJAkayaker_at_aol.com> Subject: [Paddlewise] How many rolls? Hi Mark and everybody, This is a topic I´ve found many times here and there. Is rolling necessary? How many rolls must you know? etc, etc, etc,... IMHO, any simple technique related to kayaking is important, essential, or vital, depending on the kind of paddling you practice. > 1. What are the benefits of having both an onside and offside roll? Is it worth the effort? Is it really that hard to learn ? As an instructor I teached many people to roll. Male, female, old, young, thin, fat, some learned fast, others longer, but all of them learned. Learning is not so bad if you have the propper assistance, so you don´t have to exit, bail and re-enter every time you fail. If you aren´t properly dressed for the cold then try it in a pool with warm water. You only have to be comfortable with your kayak and the water, then the rest is fun. There are many forms to roll a kayak. Try them all and choose the one you feel more "natural". Then practise it ´till you master your "good" side (is it "onside"?). Then master your "bad" side ("offside" ?). Once you feel sure you won´t fail try some moderate surf. Then master rolling in the surf. Here you may realize your technique is no easy so try another, try them all, and master them all. Then you can say you have a bomb proof roll. But you may not be interested in surf, even hate adrenaline flowing in your brain, and just love peacefully paddling warm flat water close to the coast in only sunny windless days. Then one roll will probably be enough. > 2. Is a hand roll really useable in the kind of conditions in which you would > likely get turned over? Would it take an inordiante amount of practice to develop the hand roll to this point? Yes it is. This is your last card when eveything fails. But most important. Learning to hand-roll you learn to loose your hips so rolling, bracing and everything with your kayak results easy. Once you master your roll you´ll probably never use it, but don´t fall in the trap and always keep practising under any situations you can. > 3. Are there condtions where the so called standard Greenland roll will not work well? What roll would work better in these condtions? Who knows how conditions will be out there when you find yourself in trouble. This is why I seriously recomend you to master all the technics. The more you know, the less the chances that all of them fails. Which is the better ?, that´s up to you, because it depends on your personal prefferences. After trying them you´ll find some are more "natural" and easyer to accomplish than others. > 4. Is there another roll that I should be working on and why? I´ll suggest the "Pawlatta" as a begining. Then the "screw" or the "C to C" will work in almost any situation. When planning to start with the hand roll, try the "KELP" roll, that Scott (KiAyker_at_aol.com) describes so well in his reply. Relying in only one rescue technique, wichever it be, is a bad thing, but rolling is necessary, essential and some times your life depends on it. Taken from Sea Kayaker magazine, June 99, pages 26 to 31, "Lone Madsen´s Last Journey", by her friend and trip partner Tore Sivertsen. ( With my most sincere respect and condolences ): " .....Neither Lone nor I were experts at doing Eskimo rolls with our kayaks. We had had several discussions about rolls during our journey. Lone felt that it would be doubtful that we cou manage to do Eskimo rolls under demanding conditions with high seas and a heavy load aboard. Personally I believed then, as I still do it today, that an Eskimo Roll might be your only hope. ..... ...... We had agreed to take an intensive course in rolling after our expedition. ......." You don´t have to be in the icy Greenland waters to live such experiences. This can happen anytime, anywhere. And what´s most important, this can happen to any of us. Let´s learn for once ! UNION DE KAYAKISTAS DE TRAVESIA Fernando López Arbarello uktkayak_at_interar.com.ar *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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