RE: "Needing to perform any rescue at all is a result of a failure on your part". Here I go again, an amateur disagreeing with the pros. I can't agree that needing to roll is necessarily a sign of *any* sort of failure. Setting aside the very obvious situations in which we practice rolls and braces of various kinds, different kinds of reverse sculling, etc etc - either just for fun or to improve aspects of boat control...... there isn't one of us who won't at some time find her/him self in an unexpectedly rough situation, and need that roll. My friend and teacher Tom Bergh says "There are two kinds of kayakers: those who have swum, and those who will". That's true too. Just short of the swimmers there are those who have never needed to roll their boat and those who do occasionally need a roll. I think there's a danger that if one paddles so that she/he never needs to roll, one will never learn the best of skills, and will never know how much fun kayaking can be. Bill Hansen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>RE: "Needing to perform any rescue at all is a result of a failure on your >part". As with much in life, it depends on the context. When I'm surf-kayaking if I'm never getting knocked over and having to roll, I'm not really pushing myself, and not progressing in my surfing and bracing techniques. In this context, rolling is a success on my part - having to swim would be a failure. Though I do practise rolling my loaded touring kayak, if I ever had to do an unplanned roll on a tour, even if I did come upright, I would consider that I had failed at a number of levels: in the immeadiate sense of not having braced successfully, and in the broader senses of not judging the hydrography, tides, and/or weather, and my skill levels properly. Philip Torrens N49°16' W123°06' *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 02/17/2000 3:39:44 PM Pacific Standard Time, skerries_at_hotmail.com writes: << if I ever had to do an unplanned roll on a tour, even if I did come upright, I would consider that I had failed at a number of levels: >> I have the advantage of using the same kayak for surfing and touring! I see having to have more then one kayak as a point of failure.Even my frequent paddling/suring partners view this as eccentric. If you are afraid to take your Sea kayak into the surf you should stay off the ocean! (This is NOT directed at Philip Torrens personally, but is a generalized rant.) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
<< I have the advantage of using the same kayak for surfing and touring! I see having to have more then one kayak as a point of failure.Even my frequent paddling/suring partners view this as eccentric. If you are afraid to take your Sea kayak into the surf you should stay off the ocean! (This is NOT directed at Philip Torrens personally, but is a generalized rant.) >> Huh??? I will, and have, surf anything that floats! I will not even hesitate to take my touring boat through the surf and surf it if that's what I've in at the time. But for the sheer thrill and ultimate challenge of kayak surfing I prefer something with a bit more PERFORMANCE! It has nothing whatsoever to do with fear! So much for my rant. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Someone said: >RE: "Needing to perform any rescue at all is a result of a failure on your >part". So, if I get knocked over by a big mother of a boomer wave while touring amongst a rock garden (as has happened a few times over the years) but don't actually go a full 180 degrees due to a well-placed and-timed scull, does that mean I'm half a failure? Three quarters of a failure if I get my head wet? And, if I get caught on the back side of an unexpected boomer (common enough after rounding a point of land into a wide bay that has an unexpected reef in the middle of the bay) such that I purposely roll to arrest sideways momentum and dispell explosive energy, does that mean I'm a planned failure? If I don't roll back up on the same side, but swith and roll up on my offside, am I a failure and a half? Also, if I'm traversing an exposed coast with heavy swell and I need to land and find a spot that isn't dumping - like just behind a little island, but get twisted and knocked-over in the convergence and confusion of reflected swell on the lee side (as has happened once)...am I a failure if I swim the rest of the way in, but have evaded dangerously dumping surf? Am I a failure? Oh, please tell me it isn't so! :-) BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd (who wears a helmet while touring, by the way) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Yes Doug, You can be considered a failure. One has to look at the surroundings they are in and way the odds of what might happen. It is just like mountaineering, you don't just press on ahead regardless of the terrain or weather you have to understand the conditions. Many a time club outings in Victoria paddlers constantly press forward without a clear understanding of the ramifications. It is just a matter of time when some so-called "experienced" paddler gets into problem. It probably won't be you but it could be someone else and I am sure this is the case in many other places in the world too. Unfortunately many people consider knowing how to roll and the be all, end all of paddling and have the misunderstanding that knowing how to roll their kayak makes them invincible. They are sadly mistaken. I/myself came from the school that learning to roll is the last thing you learn so you can better braces and strokes without having to rely on a roll. But this is just my opinion such as it is. K.Stevens Coastal Waters Recreation Victoria, B.C. Website: http://www.coastalwatersrec.com/maps/ -----Original Message----- From: Doug Lloyd [SMTP:dlloyd_at_telus.net] Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2000 11:21 PM To: PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] rolls and failure Someone said: >RE: "Needing to perform any rescue at all is a result of a failure on your >part". So, if I get knocked over by a big mother of a boomer wave while touring amongst a rock garden (as has happened a few times over the years) but don't actually go a full 180 degrees due to a well-placed and-timed scull, does that mean I'm half a failure? Three quarters of a failure if I get my head wet? And, if I get caught on the back side of an unexpected boomer (common enough after rounding a point of land into a wide bay that has an unexpected reef in the middle of the bay) such that I purposely roll to arrest sideways momentum and dispell explosive energy, does that mean I'm a planned failure? If I don't roll back up on the same side, but swith and roll up on my offside, am I a failure and a half? Also, if I'm traversing an exposed coast with heavy swell and I need to land and find a spot that isn't dumping - like just behind a little island, but get twisted and knocked-over in the convergence and confusion of reflected swell on the lee side (as has happened once)...am I a failure if I swim the rest of the way in, but have evaded dangerously dumping surf? Am I a failure? Oh, please tell me it isn't so! :-) BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd (who wears a helmet while touring, by the way) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Kirby Stevens wrote: > > Yes Doug, > > You can be considered a failure. One has to look at the surroundings they > are in and way the odds of what might happen. [snip] > > Unfortunately many people consider knowing how to roll and the be all, end > all of paddling and have the misunderstanding that knowing how to roll their > kayak makes them invincible. They are sadly mistaken. I/myself came > from the school that learning to roll is the last thing you learn so you can > better braces and strokes without having to rely on a roll. > -----Original Message----- > From: Doug Lloyd > Someone said: > >RE: "Needing to perform any rescue at all is a result of a failure on your > >part". This debate reminds me of the time a philosophy prof of mine walked into the room and said, "All generalizations are false!" Myself, I agree with Kirby's school of thought ... sometimes ... and I agree with Doug's school of thought ... sometimes. Maybe it's different strokes for different folks ... and different rules for different goals. Seems like there should be room under the PW umbrella for surf crazies *and* people who find rolling (and surfing) anathema. And, just to make a little more trouble, does anyone recall the risk homeostasis concept Winters promoted, which would argue that learning to roll does not make you any safer ... it only makes it possible for you to paddle in conditions gnarlier than before ... with the *same* level of perceived risk? -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 09:55 AM 2/18/00 -0800, you wrote: >>Yes Doug, You can be considered a failure>> Ah, a failure to you, I guess. A failure to others too...perhaps! No problemo. Chris Duff describes in his book how he had to roll over to let the hull of his kayak absorb the energy of a sudden boomer. Apparently, he's a failure too! I love the company...good company you know, eh? >>One has to look at the surroundings they are in and way the odds of what might happen. It is just like mountaineering, you don't just press on ahead regardless of the terrain or weather you have to understand the conditions. Many a time club outings in Victoria paddlers constantly press forward without a clear understanding of the ramifications. It is just a matter of time when some so-called "experienced" paddler gets into problem. It probably won't be you but it could be someone else and I am sure this is the case in many other places in the world too >> What about if you do know the ramifications, are willing to take the exposure as an "acceptable risk" and press on. Guess then you are a fool _and_ a failure. Guess I _am_ a fool and a failure. However, I enjoy pushing limits, challenging my mental and physical stamina, and taking it to the edge - all alone, no one else to bail me out. I hate board and computer games, hate team sports, hate crossword puzzles, hate river paddling with a bunch of adrenaline yahoo junkies or hole tricksters with their latest squirt boats. I work out hard at the gym, don't put crap food into my body like most North Americans do stuffing themselves with carbs or going the other way with too much protein, and just love being out at sea working the odds, threading my way along challenging coasts. It provides a deep satisfaction, invokes a deep-play crucial to my existence, engages me spiritually far more than worship in a church devoid of context due to remoteness from nature, and releases natural chemicals into my blood stream whose effects are untold yet unequivocally sure. I need my roll, my back-ups, and a little luck and a lot of determination at times (novice caveat here). They say there are old pilots and bold pilots, but no bold, old pilots. BS! The bold old pilots thrill audiences around the world every time you go to an airshow. Some crash and burn from time to time. I do to, but find the water much softer with most of the flames coming from friends! >>Unfortunately many people consider knowing how to roll and the be all, end all of paddling and have the misunderstanding that knowing how to roll their kayak makes them invincible. They are sadly mistaken. I/myself came from the school that learning to roll is the last thing you learn so you can better braces and strokes without having to rely on a roll.>> Hey, we agree on that one. Don't forget to add that sculling brace though...can be mighty important in preventing a full knock-over. >>But this is just my opinion such as it is. K.Stevens>> I should tell the list that you and I are good friends here in Victoria. BTW, I said: >Also, if I'm traversing an exposed coast with heavy swell and I need to >land and find a spot that isn't dumping - like just behind a little island, >but get twisted and knocked-over in the convergence and confusion of >reflected swell on the lee side I meant "refracted" not "reflected" swell. Was tired when I posted...had a busy day. I had been searching for a new brain _all_ day!!! :-) Be cool, be safe, and enjoy whatever type of paddling you do -- rolling-ready or calm-water crusing -- just be aware of consequences. The tenure of my overall paddling experience to date is that I don't paddle the way I do due to existential angst, wanting to "prove" something, because of a lousy marriage, a deprived childhood or merely for the "rush". I paddle challenging conditions because I simple frickin enjoy it. As I almost always do a "comfort zone" roll on every rough outing*, guess I'll remain a _complete_ failure, while others can remain complete successes! * The only outing where I really screwed up solo rough water paddling was at Trial Island (the incident in SK Magazine). Interestingly enough, it was the only rough water paddle in recent memory where I did not do a preemptive "comfort roll" to "test the waters". So, _not_ rolling at first may have been my failure! BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd (who says success is in the eye of the beholder) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 2/19/00 3:40:11 AM Pacific Standard Time, dlloyd_at_bc.sympatico.ca writes: << However, I enjoy pushing limits, challenging my mental and physical stamina, and taking it to the edge - all alone, no one else to bail me out. I hate board and computer games, hate team sports, hate crossword puzzles, hate river paddling with a bunch of adrenaline yahoo junkies >> It seems you also enjoy typing on a computer keyboard:) Not that there is anything wrong with that. On the Freeway of life anyone going faster is a macho crazy, anyone going slower is a wimp! Tom C. Edmonds, WA. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I gotta say that if you have your roll to a place where it works well in *combat* it should also work well at the end of the day, no matter how tired you are. The roll should not be a stressful manuver requiring tons of muscle or strength. It's a finese move based on posture and balance. Steve Scherrer Alder Creek Kayak and Canoe 250 NE Tomahawk Isle Dr. Portland, Oregon 97217 Phone 503.285.0464 Fax 503.285.0106 Web Site: http://www.aldercreek.com ^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* ----- Original Message ----- From: <Bhansen97_at_aol.com> To: <Tomckayak_at_aol.com>; <paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2000 5:21 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] A Few Dozen Rolls (re-send) > Tom - Thanks for your note. I've "done" a grand total of 1 pool session in my > 14 year paddling life. I paddle in our lake, which is small by most standards > at about 1.5 X 40 miles, for practice and for fun. That's where I do my > rolling practice. Until last year I paddled 12 months out of the year. Last > year and this one I've omitted January and (so far) February - too cold even > for me when the air temp is below 20 and the water temp is below 35. I'm not > comfortable enough in the really cold stuff to make it fun for me, and I > won't paddle if it isn't fun. > > I'm also lucky enough to get in a few long weeknds and the occasional 5-7 day > trip on the Atlantic, off of Maine or Rhode Island, each year. > > I agree about those rolls at the end of a day's paddling too. They are more > difficult - again because of muscular fatigue. I almost always do a few rolls > just before take-out, for just the reason you mention. > > Bill > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not > to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** > Alder Creek Kayak and Canoe 250 NE Tomahawk Isle Dr. Portland, Oregon 97217 Phone 503.285.0464 Fax 503.285.0106 Web Site: http://www.aldercreek.com ^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* ----- Original Message ----- From: <Tomckayak_at_aol.com> To: <PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net> Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2000 8:40 AM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] rolls and failure > In a message dated 2/19/00 3:40:11 AM Pacific Standard Time, > dlloyd_at_bc.sympatico.ca writes: > > << However, I enjoy > pushing limits, challenging my mental and physical stamina, and taking it > to the edge - all alone, no one else to bail me out. I hate board and > computer games, hate team sports, hate crossword puzzles, hate river > paddling with a bunch of adrenaline yahoo junkies >> > > > It seems you also enjoy typing on a computer keyboard:) > > Not that there is anything wrong with that. > > > On the Freeway of life anyone going faster is a macho crazy, anyone going > slower is a wimp! > > > Tom C. > Edmonds, WA. > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not > to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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