MJAkayaker_at_aol.com asked about what rolls to learn, and are they useful? Whether you actually end up paddling in conditions where you rely on rolls as a self rescue technique or not I think that learning and practicing rolls is definitely worthwhile. Although IMHO the most useful self rescue technique IS rolling, having a repertoire of rolls will also definitely improve your boat handling, comfort in lumpy conditions, and confidence sea kayaking .... you can also take a mask along and when the water is clear watch the fishes! ;-) ... and its not a lot of effort learning to roll its a lot of fun! When learning to roll it seems like there are a number of 'set' ways to roll and thats how you do it. Thus folk describe the classic pawlata, screw, c-c, steyr etc, etc, etc, but I strongly believe that once you start to become a proficient roller the different rolls merge and you can become more creative using combinations of movements and support techniques as appropriate, the important point being that in the process your roll becomes much much stronger. The only way to be able to be creative and use the full repertoire of different techniques is to practice as many methods of rolling as possible - the different ways of getting support (c-to-c style brace, sweeps, skulls, draws, and all combinations thereof etc, etc), and the methods of rotating the boat and recovery while forward, backward, experimenting with the different buoyant effects of different body positions etc. Having a number of rolls also means you don't get fussed if a wave hits you at an inappropriate moment and the first roll doesn't bring you all the way into balance - no need to set up again for further and probably more desperate tries at your only roll, you just apply a different technique from where you are. In this respect I do think that its important not to think 'on' or 'offside', but strive to be equally fluid on both. While I reckon the actual combat use of handsrolls while seakayaking is likely to be extremely rare I nevertheless also strongly recommend learning and practicing hands rolls - satisfying thing to do in itself, but because they are so much less forgiving of poor hip technique once mastered handsrolls will drastically improve all of your rolls. Here are a couple of techniques I have found useful: First as often stated rotation of the boat is the key, not muscling your way up with a paddle. A common suggestion for learning the hip rotation is to practice at the side of a pool for example without a paddle - hands on the side. I don't recommend this, you'll just learn how to push yourself upright using the side of the pool. I think a much more useful exercise is to have an assistant stand next you in waist deep water. Ditch the paddle, and allow yourself to flop over sideways into the water with your shoulder supported just under the surface by the assistant's hands, head at the surface where that nice air is available ... nice and relaxed. Now rotate the boat to upright with your shoulder STILL resting on your assistants hands head still at the surface. Repeat this a lot. By doing this you learn hip rotation first (your hands don't and can't do anything in this exercise, and your body stays in the water as you rotate the boat, buoyancy which is very important for a good roll) When you really have this down, practice recovery of the body from your assistants support by leaning back over the top of your now upright boat. Again you don't use your hands! Try it, its that simple, and when you can do this confidently and smoothly THEN move on to learning one of the the movements of the paddle to get you into this position. Then remember not to just yank on the paddle now your holding it ... the same movement as you were doing in the exercise .... amazing, you can roll! It works! Why didn't you do this years ago! Second a technique for learning to hands roll. Handsrolling is weird and baffling until you can do it - it seems like you have no support at all!. Some people advocate practicing using a buoyant float in your hands. Just as above, you will just learn to use the buoyancy of the float. I recommend using a hand paddle. I have a foil shaped board that I use as a leeboard while sailing my capella. Its a flat plank of wood about two and a half feet long by about three inches wide sanded into a foil section. (For sailing it is pushed through the deck line running between the two forward recessed deck fittings closest to the cockpit on the lee-ward side, to give an idea of the size). This is such a useful tool for learning hands rolls - hold it in your hand with half of the blade forward of your fingers, and half behind your hand against the underside of your forearm. Its useful because unlike a float you use it EXACTLY as you would your hands alone ... but it makes the roll much easier. The first hands roll I would recommend to try goes as follows: hold the board in your right hand, then lean as far back as possible. In an appropriate boat this means put the back or your head flat on the rear deck. Put your right hand next your left ear, and LOOK at the board. Capsize left, Its disorientating, but KEEP your head ON the back deck, and when your right hand touches the surface hip snap smoothly (not fast, not explosive, smooth) as you sweep your right hand down and right. Throw your left hand left over the boat if you like, but KEEP looking at the board in your right hand the WHOLE time. Congratulations, you now know how to do a handsroll ... when you have confidence with it just do the same thing without the board. Last weekend I gave this board to a friend practicing rolls in the pool. She had an unreliable screw roll and a slightly more reliable pawlata on one side only. She managed the hand roll with the board first time, and in half an hour was handsrolling. The improvement this exercise made to her paddle roll was tremendous. Finally when you have a roll that works, don't be satisfied, and don't just practice setting up, capsizing and rolling, 'cos that isn't how it happens for real. Imagine you have been knocked over! So fall over, anyhow, with the paddle wherever, without it at all, out of breath, get some one to push you over, get surprised, go both sides. Up the same side you fell over, fall over then do something like touch your toes, count to ten etc, then roll up. Swim about while capsized, toss your paddle away, and swim in the boat to it then roll, try rolling but not coming all the way up - catch yourself at the surface and skull for support for a minute, then finish. Roll as fast as possible, then slow it down, get someone to hold the boat trying to stop you rolling, roll in your own boat, in others, in boats that don't fit, narrow ones, skinny ones, ww rodeo play-boats are tricky beasts and excellent for indicating poor technique. In other words play about with the rolls. I'll qualify my post if it helps - A few years ago I considered myself to have a good roll - a screw roll that worked on both sides and worked for a re-entry roll. But it wasn't elegant and was basically a thuggy muscle up. A rather dismal experience two years ago while sea paddling in Norway indicated that I needed to do some work. I was just waiting for a companion in flat calm sunny conditions and thought I may as well do some rolls ... hmmm hadn't rolled the sea boat in months, I only practiced rolling occasionally, say as a warm up before a rapid in a ww boat, and whatever, in the relaxed conditions in my sea boat my thuggy explosive screw roll didn't work and I went for a swim! and then took ***a number of attempts*** to re-enter and roll successfully (no way was I going to be rescued!) only to discover that my then Attwood waterbuster pump had failed .....). Flat calm conditions .... set up, ready ... FAIL. Was I reminded of the need to improve on my then essentially single method of rolling. I made a conscious effort to acquire new rolls, and practice them in a variety of conditions. I made a greenland paddle (thanks again for your instructions Chuck), which definitely opens up the options and the fun of rolling for the sake of it, and practiced. Practiced in different boats with different paddles in different conditions. I now roll using a number of techniques on both sides - the classification into named rolls I think breaks down after a bit ... invent a roll, and I practice with unfeathered greenland paddles, feathered euro paddles, other bits of kit I regularly carry on deck, handsrolls etc etc. Learning and practicing rolls is definitely worth the effort, and believe me its not that hard to acquire a repertoire, and it is fun doing it! I haven't had time to follow or post to the list for a while, so Hi all!, HTH ... Cheers Colin Calder 57º19'N 2º10'W *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mark, As an ocean kayaker and kayak surfer of twenty years and a kayak instructor of ten who can do a variety of rolls onside and off, including the hand roll my take on it is this; <<1. What are the benefits of having both an onside and offside roll?>> While some folks will no doubt try to impress you with heroic tales of circumstances where their offside roll saved their lives, the truth of the matter is that one good roll on one side of the boat is more then adequate. Understand that we try NOT to capsize in the first place. Needing to perform any rescue at all is a result of a failure on your part. So learning multiple variations of a single rescue is more for fun then practicality. <<Is it worth the effort?>> Is exposing yourself to a potentially dangerous situation by going to sea in a tiny boat propelled by a paddle worth the effort? I enjoy collecting rolls and other various rescue techniques. I feel it makes me at least a more confident if not competent paddler. But is it really worth the effort? Probably not. <<2. Is a hand roll really useable in the kind of conditions in which you would likely get turned over?>> No! <<Would it take an inordinate amount of practice to develop the hand roll to this point?>> Possibly. Some of us pick this stuff up more quickly then others. Even then, some boats are easier to hand roll then others. While I can do a hand roll in a variety of boats, I still have not managed it in the boat I use the most for touring. I think the greatest benefit of learning a hand roll is that it will help you develop a really strong hip flick which will in turn make your other rolls rock solid. <<3. Are there conditions where the so called standard Greenland roll will not work well?>> I imagine there are hypothetical situations which defy any rescue. Why go there? <<4. Is there another roll that I should be working on and why?>> I think one good solid roll is far better then a number of weaker rolls. However learning a number of rolls can be fun and challenging and can help to make your primary roll stronger. The Pawlata, which I think is what your working on, is good. The screw roll is a little better since it does not require shifting the hands. One more I like I think is called the Kelp roll. The Kelp roll is not really a true roll as you go over and come up on the same side. It is performed with the paddle floating flat on the surface of the water. You turn over towards the paddle, placing both hands on the paddle shaft. Using the resistance of the paddle in the water you hip flick up, throwing your offside hand across the boat and over to the other side in the process. I like this roll because it helps put the emphasis on the hip flick rather then on the paddle sweep. Good luck, Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>Mark, > > As an ocean kayaker and kayak surfer of twenty years and a kayak >instructor of ten who can do a variety of rolls onside and off, including >the >hand roll my take on it is this; > > <<1. What are the benefits of having both an onside and offside roll?>> > > While some folks will no doubt try to impress you with heroic tales of >circumstances where their offside roll saved their lives, the truth of the >matter is that one good roll on one side of the boat is more then adequate. >Understand that we try NOT to capsize in the first place. Needing to >perform >any rescue at all is a result of a failure on your part. So learning >multiple >variations of a single rescue is more for fun then practicality. > ><<Is it worth the effort?>> Hi Mark, If a lay person may beg to differ, or least comment: Prior to a back injury several years back, I was pretty much "ambidexterous", and able to roll fluidly (so to speak) on both sides. I found that in surf, it was usually preferable to roll on the seaward side, since if you were coming up on the landward side you were pretty vunerable to incoming waves until you were all the way back up. Rolling on the seaward side often meant you could brace from below on the incoming wave so that sometimes you did not even need to sweep, and/or if you were hit by a wave while part way back up, it would actually complete the process of righting you and you could simply slide into a brace. Despite my best efforts, my offside roll is now pretty marginal, so today I would go for my reliable onside roll in preference to the wobbly offside one. However, if you can achieve reliable rolls on both sides, there is definetely an advantage to being able to "choose". Philip Torrens N49°16' W123°06' *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I really have to agree with Steve on this one: I used to think that a roll was a prerequisite for paddling. I don't think that way so vehemently anymore, but the skills learned while you're progressing toward a bombproof roll (bracing, leaning, edging) are the skills that you'll use everyday to prevent a capsize that necessitates a roll in the first place. This is goal #1--don't capsize! Like Scott said, "Needing to perform any rescue at all is a result of a failure on your part". >3. Tilt, edge, lean, support <360º vertical plane> > >Rolling is a function of #3. It is controlling the >tilt of your vessel. The more talented and >practiced you are at rolling the more tricks you can >pull outta your hat. The better you will >*understand* balance, support, your body and boat. -- Shawn W. Baker 0 46°53'N © 1999 ____©/______ 114°06'W ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^\ ,/ /~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ baker_at_montana.com 0 http://www.missoulaconcrete.com/shawn/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 2/17/00 7:30:39 PM, baker_at_montana.com writes: << This is goal #1--don't capsize! Like Scott said, "Needing to perform any rescue at all is a result of a failure on your part". >> I respectfully disagree. Mark you need to be aware that a set of questions like you have posted will draw as many different opinions as there are people reading this list. Just remember these are opinions and not gospel. Kayaking for me is a three dimensional sport. For me kayaking is a very wet sport and I like it that way. I enjoy rolling, so much so that I've made a commitment to myself to roll at least half a dozen times on each side every time I paddle. That way, if I wouldn't roll in it, I won't paddle it. This also helps to keep my rolls very strong. I feel very safe knowing I will not have to swim. I have capsized accidentally exactly twice this past year. Both times my paddle was not in my hands while I was fixing or adjusting something. I don't consider these capsizes failures of any kind. I was testing my limits as I believe we all should. It irks me to here the "Never Capsize" or "Needing to roll is a failure" slogans. If you never capsize or never have to do an extreme high brace your not learning the advanced skills that will keep you safe in the sea. Some kayakers never push themselves, that's fine for them but others of us who like the rough conditions need our skills to exceed our exposure. For many of us this means learn everything, every roll, every sculling style, every Greenland technique with every style of paddle in every type of conditions. So Mark, my advise reads like this: Learn whatever rolls you feel have a benefit for you and learn them on both sides. My favorites are the Screw Roll for speed and the Pawlatta for power. Learn to roll on both sides, despite some of the opinions you'll hear, the offside roll is nearly as important as the onside. I don't yet have a hand roll but I will keep practicing until I can hand roll on either side regardless of the conditions. As you progress you may decide to learn other rolls. Other rolls will fine tune your understanding of the dynamics of the water/kayak/paddler system. Never stop learning, it what keeps us young. Best of luck Jed Luby Goffstown, NH *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I too am learning my rolls. I started with a C to C, then Pawlatta and latest a Screw Roll. I'm still learning so I don't consider them to be bombproof in the "real" world right yet. A couple of points that I've noticed is that by trying different rolls it might help find a particular one that is more comfortable. For me the Screw roll seems easier on my body than the C to C roll. And if I blow a roll then I can extend my paddle and do a "half" Pawlatta for more paddle support. That seems to work pretty well. The best part about learning an offside roll is that if you blow your onside you're all ready set up for the offside roll (or vice versa). Having to reset your paddle after a blown roll means you're upside down that much longer. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: <MJAkayaker_at_aol.com> Subject: [Paddlewise] How many rolls? Hi Mark and everybody, This is a topic I´ve found many times here and there. Is rolling necessary? How many rolls must you know? etc, etc, etc,... IMHO, any simple technique related to kayaking is important, essential, or vital, depending on the kind of paddling you practice. > 1. What are the benefits of having both an onside and offside roll? Is it worth the effort? Is it really that hard to learn ? As an instructor I teached many people to roll. Male, female, old, young, thin, fat, some learned fast, others longer, but all of them learned. Learning is not so bad if you have the propper assistance, so you don´t have to exit, bail and re-enter every time you fail. If you aren´t properly dressed for the cold then try it in a pool with warm water. You only have to be comfortable with your kayak and the water, then the rest is fun. There are many forms to roll a kayak. Try them all and choose the one you feel more "natural". Then practise it ´till you master your "good" side (is it "onside"?). Then master your "bad" side ("offside" ?). Once you feel sure you won´t fail try some moderate surf. Then master rolling in the surf. Here you may realize your technique is no easy so try another, try them all, and master them all. Then you can say you have a bomb proof roll. But you may not be interested in surf, even hate adrenaline flowing in your brain, and just love peacefully paddling warm flat water close to the coast in only sunny windless days. Then one roll will probably be enough. > 2. Is a hand roll really useable in the kind of conditions in which you would > likely get turned over? Would it take an inordiante amount of practice to develop the hand roll to this point? Yes it is. This is your last card when eveything fails. But most important. Learning to hand-roll you learn to loose your hips so rolling, bracing and everything with your kayak results easy. Once you master your roll you´ll probably never use it, but don´t fall in the trap and always keep practising under any situations you can. > 3. Are there condtions where the so called standard Greenland roll will not work well? What roll would work better in these condtions? Who knows how conditions will be out there when you find yourself in trouble. This is why I seriously recomend you to master all the technics. The more you know, the less the chances that all of them fails. Which is the better ?, that´s up to you, because it depends on your personal prefferences. After trying them you´ll find some are more "natural" and easyer to accomplish than others. > 4. Is there another roll that I should be working on and why? I´ll suggest the "Pawlatta" as a begining. Then the "screw" or the "C to C" will work in almost any situation. When planning to start with the hand roll, try the "KELP" roll, that Scott (KiAyker_at_aol.com) describes so well in his reply. Relying in only one rescue technique, wichever it be, is a bad thing, but rolling is necessary, essential and some times your life depends on it. Taken from Sea Kayaker magazine, June 99, pages 26 to 31, "Lone Madsen´s Last Journey", by her friend and trip partner Tore Sivertsen. ( With my most sincere respect and condolences ): " .....Neither Lone nor I were experts at doing Eskimo rolls with our kayaks. We had had several discussions about rolls during our journey. Lone felt that it would be doubtful that we cou manage to do Eskimo rolls under demanding conditions with high seas and a heavy load aboard. Personally I believed then, as I still do it today, that an Eskimo Roll might be your only hope. ..... ...... We had agreed to take an intensive course in rolling after our expedition. ......." You don´t have to be in the icy Greenland waters to live such experiences. This can happen anytime, anywhere. And what´s most important, this can happen to any of us. Let´s learn for once ! UNION DE KAYAKISTAS DE TRAVESIA Fernando López Arbarello uktkayak_at_interar.com.ar *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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