>>In a message dated 3/6/00 9:07:37 PM !!!First Boot!!!, baker_at_montana.com writes: <<< Rob, while I agree with your contention that a general "blame the dealer" mentality is ultimately bad for our industry, from Debbie's statement, I would say that the dealer was, in fact, negligent to some (debatable) degree. She said that she looked inside and saw no flotation. TheWetOne was told the boat didn't need any additional flotation. That's pretty gross negligence. Not saying anything would have been less negligent! >>> >>Shawn, I for one would reserve judgment and sentencing on this dealer. I don't know what the conversations between the new paddler and the shop people were. Did he misrepresent experience, did he promise to purchase safety gear before going out, etc. I am not saying that there were things that could not have been done better. Truth is, I don't know what took place, I wasn't there. I would say this, boats should float. Positive flotation should not be an option. WE SHOULD DEMAND THIS FROM ALL MANUFACTURERS. It's a start. I visited the Old Town Website, if the model was correct "Loon," then it does have positive flotation. See http://www.otccanoe.com/const_polylink.html according to the manufacturer.<<< Bruce McCutcheon WEO The website above about the Loon does claim that the foamed plastic does provide flotation but while the boat may not sink on its own the flotation it provides is totally inadequate since it is not enough to float the boat and paddler in a manner that would allow an easy rescue or self-rescue after a bailout. While I doubt Old Town is saying you don't need additional flotation it would be easy for a reader like yourself (or a buyer) to interpret them to mean that the kayak contains all the flotation you need. In a sense a little flotation can be a dangerous thing because it seems to fulfill the rule (that you need "positive" flotation). There is another problem for a manufacturer or retailer (disclaimer--I am both). Lawyers have told us that providing any safety information may make one more liable to a judgment against them in a lawsuit. The information provided will be used against the business. Lawyer for the victims heirs: "You provided safety information and the poor victim trusted you but you betrayed that trust when you failed to warn him of the very danger that killed him." Long ago my brother and I decided that even if providing safety information might make us more liable we would do it anyway in hopes that we would have less victims among our customers. Getting customers to read it all is sometimes difficult. It is much safer to offer books on the subject and let someone else be liable for the information, misinformation or lack of information provided in the book. As to your point about manufacturers providing "positive" flotation in the kayaks they sell I can only ask "what is that" and "would you really buy a kayak that meets the Coast Guard standard of what constitutes 'flotation' in boats". No kayak I know of meets this standard and if one did you probably wouldn't buy it since it would be filled with closed cell foam. You wouldn't have any room for your gear and probably couldn't lift it on to your car. Even a totally enclosed airspace can not be counted as "flotation" according to the Coast Guard. Certainly if you added a hole (hatch) you have compromised the flotation value of an enclosed space even further. Please read the "flotation" manual in the manuals section of our website if you would like a more thorough discussion of flotation, how much is enough, as well as the ways that the different methods of flotation have actually failed in real life incidents. The Supreme Institute for National Kayak Safety (SINKS) now requires that this article be read by all those who would demand "positive flotation" in all kayaks sold.;-) For years the Coast Guard's standards for PFD's inhibited innovation in PFD's because of the cost for certifying compliance when a company wanted to make any change to a PFD that was already certified ($5000.00). A PFD builder in what was then a small market (Kayaks) would probably never earn back what it would cost them to improve their PFD. New innovators of better PFD's were discouraged from bringing there ideas to market by the cost of complying with the certification. I suggest we don't go there again with kayaks or other items of safety equipment. Regulation is stultification. I have been in the Kayak department of a big store and been told that the recreational kayak they were selling was made of a plastic that floated so didn't need any additional flotation. This kind of wrong information is probably far more dangerous than no information at all. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> There is another problem for a manufacturer or retailer (disclaimer--I am > both). Lawyers have told us that providing any safety information may make > one more liable to a judgment against them in a lawsuit. The information > provided will be used against the business. Lawyer for the victims heirs: > "You provided safety information and the poor victim trusted you but you > betrayed that trust when you failed to warn him of the very danger that > killed him." > Long ago my brother and I decided that even if providing safety information > might make us more liable we would do it anyway in hopes that we would have > less victims among our customers. Getting customers to read it all is > sometimes difficult. It is much safer to offer books on the subject and let > someone else be liable for the information, misinformation or lack of > information provided in the book. Two things: 1. I wasn't aware that legal advice being given has made those who sell kayaks shy away from giving safety advice as you outline above. Several other dealers also mentioned this here as followups to Debbie's post. I don't wish to open up another can of worms because of the organization involved, Matt, but didn't TASK at one point 10 years ago try to urge that dealers and manufacturers give such basic saferty advice? And didn't it push or recommend that manufacturers affix a safety warning sticker in their boats with a dozen provisos or warnings? I really have paid attention to what is in boats these days. Nor do I go into paddling shops much these days except the one here in NYC where Randy is a good friend, we chat, I buy something small and then leave, but I am not buying boats. 2. I commend you and your brother for going ahead anyway to dish out safety advice with the interests of the customers in mind, i.e. help keep them alive. If I lived in Seattle, I would shop in your shop any day. Easy enough for me to say as you do sell folding kayaks! :-) I have heard from some of your folding kayak customers about how much you truly are helpful in getting them off on the right track all the way around. So, thanks...I want them live and kicking...and sending subscription checks in for the newsletter. :-) ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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