Thanks again to all the people who answered my questions about which rolls I should be working on. I am 20 for 20 over the last week. A little over half were extended paddle and the rest regular screw rolls (both types with my Greenland paddle). I even did some out in the bay. It really was not much rougher than the pool, but it was a psychological barrier. This Sunday we are doing a pool session and I really want to work on technique. I am trying to get past the "good roll = up and bad roll = upside down stage" and learn to feel the difference between a really solid roll and one that just barely gets me up (and probably would not get me up in real conditions). What sort of things should I be paying attention to? 1) Less force on the paddle = better roll ? 2) Almost going over the other way = better roll ? 3) Paddle blade depth at finish of roll - shallower = better roll? 4) You just know it when you feel it you over analytical dummy I am not sure if the above actually are better or worse but they are some of the differences I do seem to notice. Should I be paying attention to any of these or to something else? Is there something that someone working with me would notice? One of the paddlers is going to videotape us so that may help a lot. I am not feeling a "hip snap" the way it has been described to me. I am aware of a change of pressure from one knee to the other and I feel my lay-back, but I do not feel the bending from one side to the other that I think I should feel. Is it just happening so quickly that I miss it (I am getting up) or should I really be aware of the bending? I was thinking of trying some rolls with just half a paddle to help me check my technique. Is this a good way to improve? Should I be working longer with a full paddle before I try this (ie can it hurt my technique)? I will also be trying my first offside rolls this weekend. I hope its easier than going from a stern rudder to a cross-draw. I would appreciate any advice you would be willing to share. Mark J. Arnold MJAkayaker_at_aol.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Mark, Sounds like you have gottent to the point where you can do a lot of rolls to practice without having bail out. It doesn't hurt to have a spotter handy to do and eskimo rescue just in case. Going from a pool or a "pond roll" to a reliable combat roll is the hardest trick. There is a big difference between deliberately capsizing (even in rough conditions) and actually being flipped unexpectedly in cold violent water. When I first learned to roll reliably I was at college and the local whitewater club had pool sessions twice a week all winter. I got so I could do a hand roll with just one hand consistently. What happened when I flipped for the first time in whitewater in March in 35 F water? Well all the training didn't help prepare me for the shock of the cold and having my helmut bumping along the bottom. I lifted my head, made one of those cold water barking noises and became a squirmin hatch blower. Good drills for getting a good combat roll include rolling in current or surf. Once you get an offside roll a great drill is to practice setting up on one side then switch under the boat to roll up on the opposite side. Doing half rolls on alternate sides and switching back and forth under the boat kills the advantage you get from the momentum of doing a full roll and simulates that nasty feeling when you set up on the wrong side of wind or wave and have to switch to the other side. The more you capsize for practice in cold bumpy water for practice the more likely you are to feel calm and confident when you flip by accident. Having good technique is only half of the equation, you gotta believe in your roll. Take it from a squirmin hatch blower who knows. Bill Newman MJAkayaker_at_aol.com wrote: > Thanks again to all the people who answered my questions about which rolls I > should be working on. I am 20 for 20 over the last week. A little over half > were extended paddle and the rest regular screw rolls (both types with my > Greenland paddle). I even did some out in the bay. It really was not much > rougher than the pool, but it was a psychological barrier. > > This Sunday we are doing a pool session and I really want to work on > technique. I am trying to get past the "good roll = up and bad roll = upside > down stage" and learn to feel the difference between a really solid roll and > one that just barely gets me up (and probably would not get me up in real > conditions). What sort of things should I be paying attention to? > > 1) Less force on the paddle = better roll ? > 2) Almost going over the other way = better roll ? > 3) Paddle blade depth at finish of roll - shallower = better roll? > 4) You just know it when you feel it you over analytical dummy > > I am not sure if the above actually are better or worse but they are some of > the differences I do seem to notice. Should I be paying attention to any of > these or to something else? Is there something that someone working with me > would notice? One of the paddlers is going to videotape us so that may help > a lot. > > I am not feeling a "hip snap" the way it has been described to me. I am > aware of a change of pressure from one knee to the other and I feel my > lay-back, but I do not feel the bending from one side to the other that I > think I should feel. Is it just happening so quickly that I miss it (I am > getting up) or should I really be aware of the bending? > > I was thinking of trying some rolls with just half a paddle to help me check > my technique. Is this a good way to improve? Should I be working longer > with a full paddle before I try this (ie can it hurt my technique)? > > I will also be trying my first offside rolls this weekend. I hope its easier > than going from a stern rudder to a cross-draw. > > I would appreciate any advice you would be willing to share. > > Mark J. Arnold > MJAkayaker_at_aol.com > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not > to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
MJAkayaker_at_aol.com wrote: > What sort of things should I be paying attention to? > > 1) Less force on the paddle = better roll ? Yes. > 2) Almost going over the other way = better roll ? Not necessarily. It shows you're generating too much force and may be overloading your paddle. Once you've got your roll down pat, you'll be able to make minor corrections to your actions during the roll to prevent things like this. > 3) Paddle blade depth at finish of roll - shallower = better roll? Generally, yes. Some folks say that a sweep roll should never end with _any_ paddle dive. Realistically, a little dive is ok. If the tip of your paddle is more than about 18 inches down, I'd say you have a problem. > 4) You just know it when you feel it you over analytical dummy Yes! <g> > I am not feeling a "hip snap" the way it has been described to me. I am > aware of a change of pressure from one knee to the other and I feel my > lay-back, but I do not feel the bending from one side to the other that I > think I should feel. Is it just happening so quickly that I miss it (I am > getting up) or should I really be aware of the bending? > There are two categories of rolls - brace rolls (like the c-c) and sweep rolls (like the screw roll). Brace rolls happen kinda fast and rely on the hip action to get you up fast - hence a hip snap. The sweep rolls happen more slowly. In this case, your hip motion is less of a snap and more of a continuous rotation. It isn't lazy, but it's not a snap either. A good sweep roll is smooth and easy. If you aren't smooth, you're likely forcing some step. One example: you might switch to a semi-brace type of roll part way round and snap up. Try to slow the roll down as much as possible and you'll feel the action. If you're going to a layback finish, make sure you're right back on the deck and lie there after finishing (a little sculling to steady yourself may be in order). Once you've gotten your roll down pat, you can move on to finishing with a sit-up. By going all the way round slowly, you'll emphasize the clean smooth motion. If you're doing it right, you'll hardly notice the paddle force. Another thing you'll become aware of with a good, smooth roll is the point at which the kayak changes rolling characteristics. You'll feel the point at which the bow hits the surface, when the chines (if any) hit the water, when the secondary stability kicks in etc. You'll feel the differences between two different kayaks ("rolls like a log"[Slipstream, Ellesmere], "rolls like a barn door"[sot?], "rolls like a square wheel" [Necky Jive]). > I was thinking of trying some rolls with just half a paddle to help me check > my technique. Is this a good way to improve? Should I be working longer > with a full paddle before I try this (ie can it hurt my technique)? > That's not a bad thing. If the mechanics of your roll are ok, this will force you to rely less on paddle force (or more correctly, paddle leverage) to get up. It's also a good practice for your "I lost my paddle and have to roll up with half the spare I convenienlty carry on my kayak!" technique. I practice with a half paddle occasionally. > I will also be trying my first offside rolls this weekend. I hope its easier > than going from a stern rudder to a cross-draw. I couldn't do an offside roll in a WW kayak until I learned it in a SK. I didn't find it hard, it was just confusing switching everything around. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
One more suggestion for fine-tuning rolls: Before you start the roll, find a fixed point--in the pool or on the coast--and remember your bow orientation relative to it (easiest if you just aim the bow there), then see if you come out of the roll with the same orientation. Tom Joyce Michael Daly wrote: > MJAkayaker_at_aol.com wrote: > > > What sort of things should I be paying attention to? > > > > 1) Less force on the paddle = better roll ? > > Yes. > > > 2) Almost going over the other way = better roll ? > > Not necessarily. It shows you're generating too much force and may be > overloading your paddle. Once you've got your roll down pat, you'll > be able to make minor corrections to your actions during the roll to > prevent things like this. > > > 3) Paddle blade depth at finish of roll - shallower = better roll? > > Generally, yes. Some folks say that a sweep roll should never end with > _any_ paddle dive. Realistically, a little dive is ok. If the tip of your paddle > is more than about 18 inches down, I'd say you have a problem. > > > 4) You just know it when you feel it you over analytical dummy > > Yes! <g> > > > I am not feeling a "hip snap" the way it has been described to me. I am > > aware of a change of pressure from one knee to the other and I feel my > > lay-back, but I do not feel the bending from one side to the other that I > > think I should feel. Is it just happening so quickly that I miss it (I am > > getting up) or should I really be aware of the bending? > > > > There are two categories of rolls - brace rolls (like the c-c) and sweep rolls > (like the screw roll). Brace rolls happen kinda fast and rely on the hip action > to get you up fast - hence a hip snap. The sweep rolls happen more slowly. > In this case, your hip motion is less of a snap and more of a continuous rotation. > It isn't lazy, but it's not a snap either. > > A good sweep roll is smooth and easy. If you aren't smooth, you're likely forcing > some step. One example: you might switch to a semi-brace type of roll part way > round and snap up. Try to slow the roll down as much as possible and you'll feel > the action. If you're going to a layback finish, make sure you're right back on the > deck and lie there after finishing (a little sculling to steady yourself may be in order). > Once you've gotten your roll down pat, you can move on to finishing with a sit-up. > By going all the way round slowly, you'll emphasize the clean smooth motion. If > you're doing it right, you'll hardly notice the paddle force. > > Another thing you'll become aware of with a good, smooth roll is the point at which > the kayak changes rolling characteristics. You'll feel the point at which the bow > hits the surface, when the chines (if any) hit the water, when the secondary stability > kicks in etc. You'll feel the differences between two different kayaks ("rolls like > a log"[Slipstream, Ellesmere], "rolls like a barn door"[sot?], "rolls like a square wheel" > [Necky Jive]). > > > I was thinking of trying some rolls with just half a paddle to help me check > > my technique. Is this a good way to improve? Should I be working longer > > with a full paddle before I try this (ie can it hurt my technique)? > > > > That's not a bad thing. If the mechanics of your roll are ok, this will force you > to rely less on paddle force (or more correctly, paddle leverage) to get up. > It's also a good practice for your "I lost my paddle and have to roll up with > half the spare I convenienlty carry on my kayak!" technique. I practice with > a half paddle occasionally. > > > I will also be trying my first offside rolls this weekend. I hope its easier > > than going from a stern rudder to a cross-draw. > > I couldn't do an offside roll in a WW kayak until I learned it in a SK. I didn't > find it hard, it was just confusing switching everything around. > > Mike > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not > to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi All, Lots of great info about rolling to which I would add one thing... (maybe 2) > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net]On Behalf Of Michael Daly > > > MJAkayaker_at_aol.com wrote: <SNIP> > > > 2) Almost going over the other way = better roll ? > > Not necessarily. It shows you're generating too much force and may be > overloading your paddle. Once you've got your roll down pat, you'll > be able to make minor corrections to your actions during the roll to > prevent things like this. Almost going over the other side is usually the result of lifting your head up and possibly even tossing it to the other side. If this is the case it is a habit that is much better (easier to break) broken now rather than later. This habit is one that can haunt you for years. Remember to consciously keep your chin tucked throughout the roll. Only once the boat is upright and flat on the surface do you raise your head. The other thing I might add is that at this point in the learning stage it is critical that your practice rolls use the best form possible. You are developing the muscle memory that is going to stick with you for along time. If you practice 100 sloppy rolls you are ingraining sloppy technique. It is much better to get 10 good ones and call it quits before you become overly tired. Keep an eye out for this fatigue, once you feel like you have peaked, stop working on the roll work on something else. It is very frustrating to watch your success rate decline in the last half hour of the pool session simply because of exhaustion. Make every roll count, Never half-heartedly try to roll, and definitely work on your offside too. Congratulations on all of your new found skills! Cheers, -- Rob Cookson 3 Hats Design INTERNET PRINT ILLUSTRATION 5201 15 Ave NW Suite 220 Seattle, WA 98107 206.851.8202 direct line 206.784.1641 main office phone 206.784.2231 main office fax mailto:rob_at_3hats.com http://www.3hats.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Tom, You said <<Before you start the roll, find a fixed point --- >> <<remember your bow orientation relative to it --- >> <<then see if you come out of the roll with the same orientation>> If I do not have the same orientation, what is it telling me? Does it mean different things if I am pointed more toward my roll side than if I am pointed away from my roll side? Mark J. Arnold MJAkayaker_at_aol.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
When I was learning my rolls, then debugging them, then extending my repertoire, I noticed that "orientation-preserving" rolls felt more efficient. If I was rotating the kayak (i.e., making it yaw) as well as rolling, I was wasting energy. Now, I don't intend this to be taken too literally, because it also seems to me that certain rolls inherently contribute to yawing, at least a little more than others (screw versus C-to-C and paddle rolls versus hand rolls), especially when waves get involved. But I think your overall rolling skills will improve even if you treat this as an exercise (the same way hand rolling can improve your paddle rolling). TJ MJAkayaker_at_aol.com wrote: > Hi Tom, > > You said <<Before you start the roll, find a fixed point --- >> > <<remember your bow orientation relative to it --- >> > <<then see if you come out of the roll with the same > orientation>> > > If I do not have the same orientation, what is it telling me? Does it mean > different things if I am pointed more toward my roll side than if I am > pointed away from my roll side? > > Mark J. Arnold > MJAkayaker_at_aol.com > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not > to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
One thing I'd like to add to this discussion is that when you get your roll "bomb proof", is to load the boat with the gear you'd take on an overnight or weekend trip, then load as if you were on a weeks outing. That includes all the stuff you'd normally carry under your deck bunjies -- spare paddle, water bottle, pump, etc. There's a world of difference in rolling an unladen boat and one that is loaded with gear on deck and in the fore and aft bulks. Don't forget to load a whiffle ball and bat in the forward bulkhead for a weeks trek with others! Hardly takes up any room, lightweight, and is great fun after dinner if there's any daylight left or any layover days. Or if you have any energy left after the days paddle. A frisbee would work as well. -Nick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>Hi Tom, > >You said <<Before you start the roll, find a fixed point --- >> <<remember your bow orientation relative to it --- >> <<then see if you come out of the roll with the same orientation>> >If I do not have the same orientation, what is it telling me? Does >it mean different things if I am pointed more toward my roll side >than if I am pointed away from my roll side? > >Mark J. Arnold Hi , I am far away from being an expert in kayak rolling, but I am working on it. So far I have only done roll sessions in the pool. The first couple in white water play- or rodeo boats. These boats are short (~2m). If I did something wrong in this boat during the sweep roll (paddle blade orientation, paddle dove to much etc.) it lost the initial direction, i.e. I was facing the side of the pool or even was 180 degree wrong. Even after completing the roll it was obvious that something wasn't quite right. In extreme situations I wasn't able to come up because the boat was spinning and diving with the bow or the stern -rodeo boaters might call this a nice trick- . For me a clear sign to stop the attempt, get back into the stup and start again. Most of the time I had air for 3 tries. QUESTION: What is an offside roll? Does it mean that if I go down on the left I come up on the right (full 360)? Is an onside roll a roll were I come up on the same side I went down (180 down and -180 up)? Cheers Ulli Ulli Hoeger Dept. Physiology and Biophysics Dalhousie University Halifax, B3H4H7, Nova Scotia Canada Phone I : 902-494-2673 Fax: 902-494-1685 Phone II :902-488-6796 http://is.dal.ca/~uhoeger *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ulli: Some folks are left handed/some right handed. A right hander would favor falling in to the left and sweeping out on the right side to roll up. The favored side is the "on-side." It is often the side you are "taught" to roll on. Instructors often work with one side to get the muscle memory down.. then send you off to work on the other (off-side) side on your own. If you prefer to go down on the left and come up on the right (or if you are more consistent in completing the rool) on that side, as opposed to the other direction, then the right side is your "on-side." Robert Ulli Hoeger <uhoeger_at_is.dal.ca> wrote: > QUESTION: What is an offside roll? Does it mean that if I go down > on the left I come up on the right (full 360)? Is an onside roll a roll > were I come up on the same side I went down (180 down and -180 > up)? > > Cheers > > Ulli *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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