Harold, Thanks for your detailed description of the handling characteristics of the Khatsalano (s). I found your comparison's to the Solstice series boats very helpful. I too, have been casting lustful eyes at the Feathercraft boats. (The Romany just doesn't fit well in my luggage.) Maybe someday, . . the lottery will . . . . . trying desperately to have some patience but . . . . . . The Khatsalano's do sound like wonderful boats. Thanks again Jed *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Wendy, I had a Khats S, which I have since sold, and have a new Khats on order. I have demoed the K1. I am 5'6," 140, so about the same size as you. I have paddled all the boats you have except the flatwater racing, which I probably would find tres tipsy. I find it hard to give definite advise to anyone about boat selections unless I can really have a dialogue with them about the relative importance they place on the various aspects you mention, plus other points. However, I will give you my input. Feel free to ask as many questions afterwards as you like. > > Expedition K1 -- pros -- lots of storage room, very stable > cons -- is the boat too big for me -- I'm 5 foot 3 inches and a small to > medium build. 25 inch beam sounds pretty big to me and I'm afraid I might > swim in it. The K1 might feel a bit large in fit for you, but not all that bad. That might be the price you pay if you want to take the kitchen sink on high-latitude extended trips, though. The K1 now has optional bracing bars which can be installed to give positive thigh bracing, like the ones in the Khats, so you should (with your booster cushion) be able to make the boat comfortable for yourself. With the width, though, you will not have the feel of on-edge performance that you can get out of your narrow Solstice boats. Much more storage though. > Khatsalano -- 22 inches -- too advanced??? After paddling the racers???? No way. With the sponsons inflated, stability is similar to the SS or GTS. With no air in the sponsons, it will be more tender than the Solstices but more stable than the racer. You will quickly adjust. Storage relative to the K1 is less, but more than in the SS or GTS. I think the width difference between the Khats and Khats S is not in the frame, but only in the cut of the skin and the size of the inflated sponsons, so storage should be close between the two. > Khatsalano S -- 23.5 inches -- Is there enough room for a two-week arctic > kayak expedition, also assuming if I was doing a trip, there'd be at least > someone else so we're sharing some of the gear. Right amount of stability > that I will reach a certain comfort level -- I don't have to do headstands > in the boat! Get a copy of the list of equipment Doug Simpson took in the Khats on his 3-week Canadian shakedown cruise (possibly available on their website, or ask them to mail it to you). That should tell you whether the boat will carry your sink or not. He got a LOT of gear in that boat. The Khats, and especially the Khats S, are a lot more stable than some people make them sound. At your height, and with your experience, you should find them comfortable, and their speed will be closer to what you are used to in the SS/GTS. The Khats will pack a lot of gear and is definitely more fun as a day-boat. The K! is a lot more stable and will carry even more gear, but will feel large to you. If you can make it to one of the symposiums, call FC to see if they'll have the boats there, and go try them out. They are a major investment and might even warrant a pre-purchase rental through one of the companies that ship rental Feathercraft. Hope this helps, Harold So Cal *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Vince Dalrymple and ralph diaz wrote: > > > > > > I would agree with Vince only in part. > > > _Both_ versions, the standard (in which you can elect to inflate or not > > > inflate the smallish built-in sponsons, is in itself a compromise boat > > > that was redesigned up from the non-sponsoned version because paddlers > > > seem to want something very skinny but couldn't handle it) > > > > Not so much the stability, Ralph, as getting used to a v-bottom hard > > chine design. > > Ken Fink "tested" me in the original Khats (and expected a quick > > capsize, I think), and the trick was to not fight for a vertical rest > > position, but to just let the craft settle over on a chine 'til getting > > under way. One thing about the stability of various boats -- it depends upon your weight and how far above the waterline you carry it, which depends upon the height of the seat, your height and your height/weight distribution. The Khats series *is* tippy compared to the K1 or a Chinook or a lot of other beamier and flatter boats, but Wendy is short enough that she should be fine, provided she is happy with the livelier feel of a V-bottom. This is something that her post doesn't really answer, and the reason I wouldn't say that the Khats - or even the Khats S is definitely the boat for her. Wendy, you need to determine whether you like the feel. If you have a chance, test (in order of preference) the WS Sparrow Hawk or Arctic Hawk, and/or the Eddyline Falcon 18 (not 16). These will give you an approximation of the feel of the Khats series. I personally didn't feel the Khats S tipping hard onto one chine the way Vince describes, though I know what he is saying -- I felt the same thing with the Nordcapp and could never warm to the boat because of that feel. > > Vince: > > The price paid for those training wheels comes in the form of difficulty > > righting the boat if it should go over. The same force that once kept > > you upright is now working against you to keep you inverted and the flat > > Greenland style deck will not help matters any. I have yet to try > > rolling with a full camp load (sponsons fully inflated), but presume it > > might be easier than without such a load. I did experiment with keel > > ballast, though. Better kept in round hull, round deck boats. With its > > flat deck and some air in the sponsons, the Khats becomes very difficult > > to initiate the roll (up to the 90 degree mark). The only benefit > > (besides the obvious force against initial capsize) was easier roll > > finish. I would agree, but I never capsized inadvertently in my Khats S because of the secondary stability, and I only remember practicing rolls once in it. It was slower, but didn't alarm me enough to do repeated rolling practice in it. > > > > > The trouble in the Khats is not so much the high rear deck but rather > > > the high seatback. It is relatively easy to resolve this...cut down the > > > plastic board used for back support within the seatback cushion. Yes. And stabilize the seat bottom with the straps supplied with the boat to hold the skin tightly rolled. Run the strap across the seat crease, down around the rib behind, back up across the seat crease, down around the rib on the opposite side, then back to the buckle. > > >Ralph: > > > Incidentally, at your weight and need for stability, you may want to opt > > > for the K-Light even at its present 13 foot length. It is a speedy > > > enough boat, very agile and sporty feeling and accelerates well. > > > Sometimes smaller paddlers actually can do better in a smaller boat than > > > a longer boat. At least give it a try. I agree that this is a wonderful little boat for Wendy for short trips in relatively mild conditions, but I don't feel is an expedition quality boat, and is therefore not suited to the uses Wendy described. > > > > Something I forgot to address in the last e-mail to Wendy (and list) is > > the ease with which the K1 and esp. the K-Light set up due to their > > simplicity, especially when compared to the Khatsalano, a boat which > > wears me out just putting together (which explains it being on my car > > rather than in it). The newer K1, if you use the brace kit, may take nearly as long as the Khats S. It took me 45 minutes to assemble the S from having the bag sitting on the beach to fully ready to go, with sponsons and all standard and optional flotation inflated and the sea sock installed. Not easy, but look at the results! Vince also described paddling in conditions which made the Khats sound like a sub rather than a kayak. Vince, I suspect that you had the boat really heavily loaded. Can you tell us what the weight of paddler and gear was during that trip? One thing that can help with proper tracking and to keep the bow from diving is to load the Khats series with a heavy weight-biased towards the stern (much more weight in the rear, much further back than you might expect). But, yes -- the boat is wetter, a price you pay for the more traditional performance. Wendy, are you totally freaked yet? Wendy? Good comments everyone. Harold *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
HTERVORT_at_aol.com wrote: > > Vince Dalrymple wrote: > > > Ken Fink "tested" me in the original Khats (and expected a quick > > > capsize, I think), and the trick was to not fight for a vertical rest > > > position, but to just let the craft settle over on a chine 'til getting > > > under way. > > I personally didn't feel the Khats S tipping hard onto one chine the way > Vince describes, though I know what he is saying -- I felt the same thing > with the Nordcapp and could never warm to the boat because of that feel. I was referring to the original no-sponson Khats (what Ralph referred to as their prototype). My standard (small sponson) Khatsalano sits pretty flat with almost no air in the sponsons. The Khats S would only sit flatter still. > Vince also described paddling in conditions which made the Khats sound like a > sub rather than a kayak. Vince, I suspect that you had the boat really > heavily loaded. Can you tell us what the weight of paddler and gear was > during that trip? One thing that can help with proper tracking and to keep > the bow from diving is to load the Khats series with a heavy weight-biased > towards the stern (much more weight in the rear, much further back than you > might expect). But, yes -- the boat is wetter, a price you pay for the more > traditional performance. My weight (at the time) was a muscular 165 lb. The boat weighed in at 47 lb. The gear load minus the boat which I packed over to Japan was in the range of 40 lb. To that was added about 3~4 lb. of food, 3~4 gallons of water/beverages (anyone care to estimate the weight?), about 2~3 lb. worth of camp stove, fuel, and camera. Don't remember the other odds & ends added there. About 220 lb. plus 3~4 gallons worth of weight. To my best recollection, the packing/boat setup was as follows: Bow float bag Boat & Paddler repair kit Bow tapered drybag w/: foodstuffs, stove, and some sm. handy camping odds & ends Cockpit: 2 bottles of water/beverage, bilge pump, and any emerg. gear that didn't go in the vest (don't remember what balanced out the bilge pump) Rear Deck: spare paddle, paddle float, and for a portion of the trip the sleeping mat 3 gal. water bag for drinking/washing items Stern tapered drybag: 2 clothes changes & hygiene stuff, street shoes, sleeping bag, and tent Sleeping mat under rear deck for later portion of trip Stern Float bag The weight used to shift fore and aft was the in-cockpit water and repair kit. Wendy, sift through the information you now have, and based on your gut reaction, make a choice and run with it, Vince *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Thanks for all the posts. I haven't 100% quite figured out yet but I think I'm getting closer. I can see a use for all boats discussed. I also sent my post to Feathercraft, and they suggested the Khats S since that was similar to the GTS/SS, and I have to admit I might be leaning that way. The Khats would be a great boat to fool around with, especially while the sponsons are deflated. I don't think it would be much of a concern in stability in fair conditions for me. I've paddled a couple of Nordkapps in not so favourable weather, and didn't find them a problem -- don't know the model but I was told they were tippy. Though I think if I'm travelling in areas unknown to me, I'd tend to err on the side of caution and have a little more stability in case of bad weather or whatnot. I also like to take out my camera when conditions are sometimes not the best, so a stabler boat might be better. I guess the unfortunate thing with the Khats S is that you have to have the training wheels on at all times. I guess if I decide I wanted a boat with more performance later on, I could sell this for the Khats. I think around here, it would be easier to sell a more stable boat than the other way around. The storage space in the Khats line would definitely be sufficient -- even though I like to take the kitchen sink, my gear is really light and compact so I wouldn't need the K1 for this purpose. I think the K1 is just going to be too big. I'd probably feel like I was riding in a double and I don't like doubles. The putting together of the Khats will probably be a headache, I'm sure, for day paddles, but I can live with that. Maybe if I really like the foldables, I might sell my hardshell and pick up a KLight. Anyway, will let you know what I'm ordering. There's a canoe/kayak show here next week so I'll be ordering a boat then. I've checked and was told there probably won't be any demo boats. Once I get it, I'll let you know how long it took me to set up -- maybe 2 hours??? -- and then tell you what I think on its performance, etc. wendy ********************************************************* PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 3/29/00 6:57:28 AM Pacific Standard Time, vincedalrymple_at_home.com writes: > > My weight (at the time) was 165 lb. The boat weighed in at > 47 lb. The gear load minus the boat which I packed over to Japan was in > the range of 40 lb. To that was added about 3~4 lb. of food, 3~4 > gallons of water/beverages (24~32 lb.as stated by Dave Flory), about > 2~3 lb. worth of camp stove, fuel, and camera. Don't remember the other > odds & ends added there. About 250 lb. total weight for that trip. > Looking at Doug Simpson's very detailed list for his shakedown cruise (which was done in the original S-less Khats) shows that he had about 140 lbs of gear aboard. I guess Doug is around 180 lbs, so his total weight was 320 lbs -- 20 lbs heavier than the suggested maximum for the current Khats or Khats S. So, you weren't all that heavy, though I wonder if you figured in the weight of your paddling clothes, paddles, rescue and other paddling gear (people often overlook some of these items). I did a little math and found that Doug had only 19.6 lbs/19.7% of his gear wt forward of his knees, 44.8 lbs/32% between his seat back and knees, 41.2 lbs/29.4% between the seat and rear hatch, 15.9 lbs/11.4% in the rear hatch. This adds up to 48.8% behind the seat, and a whopping 80.8% behind the knees. This confirms my experience. I ordered the removable skeg for my new Khats, but I have found that the boat tracks and turns fine if the weight is centered far enough to the stern. I usually put about 10 lbs. ballast in the back of the boat when paddling without gear. > BTW, the 3 gal. water bag was strapped between the chine bars to the > keel as ballast. > Correction: The 3 gal. water bag was strapped directly behind the seat between the chine bars to the keel as ballast. My water gradually migrated aft during my Palau trip until it was beneath and behind the rear hatch, to balance my boat for weather helm. . > > HTERVORT_at_aol.com wrote: > > I personally didn't feel the Khats S tipping hard onto one chine the > > way Vince describes, though I know what he is saying -- I felt the same > > thing with the Nordcapp and could never warm to the boat because of that > > feel. > > I was referring to the original no-sponson Khats (what Ralph referred to > as their prototype). My standard (small sponson) Khatsalano sits pretty > flat with almost no air in the sponsons. The Khats S would only sit > flatter still. > This was my first time in the Khatsalano series and may have been my > first time in a hard chine design. Paddling the standard Khats (sm. > sponsons) immediately afterwards, it felt as though the (no sponson) > prototype original Khats was slightly narrower with a more pronounced > v-bottom. > I went over like a shot duck when I tried Doug's boat (original no-sponson Khats). It compares to the Falcon 16 with its infamous negative stability curve. The Khats S has lots more initial stability. When I tried the small-S Khats, I fell in love with it because it felt so much more lively than my Khats S -- that's when I decided to sell my boat and get the newer Khats. > Wendy, > > _If_ you decide on the Khats and are currently comfortable paddling w/o > a rudder, you might want to consider ordering the boat > "clean"(rudderless). The Khats has almost no use for a rudder for a > paddler of my size and weight (180 lb. _at_ 6'), and would still have > little use for a rudder (as opposed to the removable skeg) for a paddler > of your size and weight (going out on a limb here - i.e.., guessing). > > My advice (for what it's worth); go with F-craft's removable skeg. > It's cheap and effective in most windy condition situations. > Admittedly, I still need to work out some bugs on fore/aft skeg > placement after a windy paddle a couple of weeks ago. > I agree, both comments. The rudder is easy to install after-market if you decide it is needed and there is no real penalty in trying it clean before ordering a rudder. Good luck Wendy Harold *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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