The Brits use a lot of matte and resin in the decks of their boats to make them rigid. But rigid does not make strong. Have you ever noticed how much the wing tips of an airliner flex when the aircraft experiences turbulence? Do you want to know what would happen if they didn't? Perhaps it is no accident that vaccuum-bagging techniques were developed in Boeing Land. There is one thing to be said in favor of heavy boats; the inertia caused by their weight can mellow-out thir motion in a steep chop, especially if they are soft-bilged rather than hard-chined. Of course, packing a bit of ballast would do the same thing. Dave Kruger's proposal to document hull/deck failures is an interesting one. I wonder how strip-built and plywood/epoxy [S&G] have fared under extreme stress conditions John *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Allison wrote: >Was anyone else at the Kittery Trading Post Paddlesports show at UNH this >past weekend? I'm just curious if I sat next to someone on the list without >realizing it... Yeah I was there Friday night and Saturday (D.H. pool demo, MITA & Coastal Navigation). I found Derek quite entertaining. One of his comments that stuck in my mind the most was during his pool session. He was paddling a kevlar Gulfstream and had to mention that although it was a fine boat indeed, he prefers a heavier layed-up boat that will give him confidence in rough seas. He says the light boats are great for car-topping, but he prefers boats that "don't flutter in the wind like leaves" when dropped. I think Doug Loyd would have probably jumped up and cheered at that point. Speaking of Doug, where's he been? It's been too long since the last hair-raising tale (no offense to the other trip reporters). Joe *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 1:48 PM -0400 4/4/00, Joe Brzoza wrote: >I found Derek quite entertaining. One of his comments that stuck in my mind >the most was during his pool session. He was paddling a kevlar Gulfstream >and had to mention that although it was a fine boat indeed, he prefers a >heavier layed-up boat that will give him confidence in rough seas. He says >the light boats are great for car-topping, but he prefers boats that "don't >flutter in the wind like leaves" when dropped. I think Doug Loyd would have >probably jumped up and cheered at that point. > The British seem to have this feeling that inorder to do things right you need to suffer. The Antarctic explore Scott is a hero in England because he did everything wrong and died with a stiff upper lip. If Derek wants to bust his back moving his kayak, he is welcome to it. The standard heavy British layup is not neccessarily stronger or more able to handle abuse. Polyester and fiberglass mat can be quite brittle which is not a good thing when hitting rocks, especially with a heavy boat. A brittle layup will tend to break catastrophically where a more resilient layup will tend to hold together even if it does break. The idea that a light boat will get tossed around does not have much merit. With a paddler weighing 150 pounds or more the difference of total displacement between the 50 and 75 pound boat is not very significant. Any possible disadvantage of the light boat is made up for by other on-the-water performance advantages of the light boat. A light boat is a little easier to turn and accelerate. If you don't think this is important, carry some extra water and you can have a heavy-paddling boat that you can lift. With a good modern layup the light boat will be stronger and more rugged than a polyester/mat barge. Nick Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 10 Ash Swamp Rd Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 Schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ >>>>"It's not just Art, It's a Craft!"<<<< *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: Nick Schade <schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 10:34 AM Subject: [Paddlewise] Boat Weight > > The idea that a light boat will get tossed around does not have much merit. > With a paddler weighing 150 pounds or more the difference of total > displacement between the 50 and 75 pound boat is not very significant. Any > possible disadvantage of the light boat is made up for by other > on-the-water performance advantages of the light boat. A light boat is a > little easier to turn and accelerate. If you don't think this is important, > carry some extra water and you can have a heavy-paddling boat that you can > lift. With a good modern layup the light boat will be stronger and more > rugged than a polyester/mat barge. > Nick, with my respects, let me ask you something, Don´t you think this extra 25 pounds or whatever worth the difference when the kayak is completely loaded for expedition ? Or do you only paddle your kayaks "empty" during day trips ? >From my experience a 75 lb fiberglass kayak will survive almost everyhing, while a 50 lb one won´t pass even a moderate surf ( stating they are properly laminated ). Am I right ??? UNIÓN DE KAYAKISTAS DE TRAVESÍA Fernando López Arbarello uktkayak_at_uol.com.ar *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The added 25 pounds is only worth it if the boat is well constructed. Weight by itself is worthless. The increased weight of polyester/mat boats is there to make up for inferior construction methods and offers no advantage over a well constructed boat that is not as heavy. Don't equate weight with strength. If two boats are constructed to the same standards, the heavier one will generally be stronger. Otherwise, who knows. Nick >> The idea that a light boat will get tossed around does not have much >merit. >> With a paddler weighing 150 pounds or more the difference of total >> displacement between the 50 and 75 pound boat is not very significant. Any >> possible disadvantage of the light boat is made up for by other >> on-the-water performance advantages of the light boat. A light boat is a >> little easier to turn and accelerate. If you don't think this is >important, >> carry some extra water and you can have a heavy-paddling boat that you can >> lift. With a good modern layup the light boat will be stronger and more >> rugged than a polyester/mat barge. >> > >Nick, with my respects, let me ask you something, >Don´t you think this extra 25 pounds or whatever worth the difference when >the kayak is completely loaded for expedition ? Or do you only paddle your >kayaks "empty" during day trips ? >>From my experience a 75 lb fiberglass kayak will survive almost everyhing, >while a 50 lb one won´t pass even a moderate surf ( stating they are >properly laminated ). > >Am I right ??? > >UNIÓN DE KAYAKISTAS DE TRAVESÍA >Fernando López Arbarello >uktkayak_at_uol.com.ar > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not >to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 10 Ash Swamp Rd Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 Schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ >>>>"It's not just Art, It's a Craft!"<<<< *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I couldn't get into the room for the MITA presentation but saw all of DH's talks/demos. I was also struck by that comment-I am a smaller person and have been looking at boats with the idea that a lighter one would be easier for me to manipulate both on and off the car and at campsites....It was an interesting reality check to remember that I want a boat that does best IN THE WATER...duh. >I found Derek quite entertaining. One of his comments that stuck in my >mind >the most was during his pool session. He was paddling a kevlar Gulfstream >and had to mention that although it was a fine boat indeed, he prefers a >heavier layed-up boat that will give him confidence in rough seas. He says >the light boats are great for car-topping, but he prefers boats that "don't >flutter in the wind like leaves" when dropped. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 10:59:03 PDT From: "Allison Corning" <acorning_at_hotmail.com> Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Paddlesports show at UNH Joe wrote: >I found Derek quite entertaining. One of his comments that stuck in my >mind >the most was during his pool session. He was paddling a kevlar Gulfstream >and had to mention that although it was a fine boat indeed, he prefers a >heavier layed-up boat that will give him confidence in rough seas. He says >the light boats are great for car-topping, but he prefers boats that "don't >flutter in the wind like leaves" when dropped. Allison responded: >>I couldn't get into the room for the MITA presentation but saw all of DH's talks/demos. I was also struck by that comment-I am a smaller person and have been looking at boats with the idea that a lighter one would be easier for me to manipulate both on and off the car and at campsites....It was an interesting reality check to remember that I want a boat that does best IN THE WATER...duh.<< So Derek is still advocating that heavy boat, heavy paddle baloney, he did back 17 years ago. My take then was that it was mainly justification for the heavy boats he and others were building at the time in Britain (I guessed it was because of the weak chopped strand mat they were using in the decks in order to have it conform over the cool looking recessed deck fittings--much stronger woven fabrics do not conform well around bumps unless it is vacuum bagged). I wrote to him in the Spring of 1984 upon reviewing the galleys of the first book he wrote to be published in the U.S., "Derek Hutchinson's Guide to Sea Kayaking" copyright 1985. Among eight typewritten pages of comments I wrote him this (gee, I was long winded and blunt even then--for those masochists who would like to see all eight pages, please contact me back channel): p23) The difference in handling of kayaks weighing 10 to 20 pounds more is very small although 20 pounds of ballast concentrated at one end or the other can be quite significant. It is easy to add ballast to a kayak but much more difficult to make the heavier kayak easy for a small person to carry. The real trade off with weight is strength and rigidity, but even here materials and construction methods can make a big difference. A 60 pound vacuumed bagged kayak made of vinylester and woven roving is easily the match for a 75 pound kayak of polyester resin and mostly fiberglass mat and coremat. It is when you start pushing the limits of lightness (30 to 40 pounds) that even the strongest materials won't help much due to the flexibility of the thin laminate and the stress risers that form on flexing beyond certain limits. Here in the Northwest the public demands and gets a kayak that is a little too lightweight to take hard pounding on rocks or enders in surf. Few people here need all the extra strength that 10 pounds would bring. Those that do usually order a kayak of their choice custom built to heavy duty specifications. Since only a few will buy the heavy duty kayak you can hardly expect that a manufacturer would not try to satisfy the demand, but rather insist that if one the customer wants one of his kayaks he must buy a heavy-duty one. He would soon be bankrupt. p34) Weight to provide momentum can easily be added as gear or ballast to a lightweight kayak but you can not take it off a heavy kayak to carry it up the beach. While weight is desirable in strong wind and head seas (but far more is needed than the little extra that is in a heavyweight kayak) this is a absurd justification for cheap materials that must be made heavy for strength and must be used (mat) so you can laminate over the bumps of recessed deck fittings (which stronger woven materials can't do). The other major justification for heavyweight kayaks is the strength and rigidity to withstand boat over boat rescues which don't work with gear laden kayaks anyway. Of the eight pages the only change Derek made to the manual was removing the comment that food should be stored behind hatches and bulkheads in bear country. I wrote him: p244) DO NOT leave food in your kayak in bear country. The bear may still get it and destroy your mode of transportation in the process. Kayaks with bulkheads are mouse proof not bear proof. Allison, unless you are planning a long expedition with heavy loads and surf landings my advice is buy a kayak you can lift by yourself. If you still can't get it up on your car by yourself let me know which car and I will give you some tips on how it might be accomplished most easily. If you think you need extra weight in the kayak due to the potential conditions add it to the kayak's bottom, low down where it will do the most good. Lead weights, beach rocks, water bottles will all work. Have a way to fasten the weights in place so they can't roll around and destabilize you. Under a float bag is one way. Make the weights easy to remove so you can carry them back to the car separately from your kayak. All of the benefits (and more) of a heavy kayak in high winds. None of the pain (or back sprains). Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>Joe wrote: >>I found Derek quite entertaining. One of his comments that stuck in my >>mind the most was he prefers a >>heavier layed-up boat that will give him confidence in rough seas. >Allison responded: >I was also struck by that comment-I am a smaller person and >have been looking at boats with the idea that a lighter one would be easier >for me to manipulate both on and off the car and at campsites....It was an >interesting reality check to remember that I want a boat that does best IN >THE WATER...duh.<< THE WATER ???? What about one year straight, paddling (with timeouts for weather) around Australia, what about around Japan, around the seaboard of Alaska? Paul Caffyn advocates light weight (OK he had cracks at the start of the Alaska trip). My own boat is 17 kg (37 pounds) and no way does it flutter. My partner's boat about 25 Kg (55 pounds), saw her doing endos in the surf recently with no hint of damage. Get a boat that you can lift and carry. Remember Chris Duff's heavy weight got broken in the surf, if it's that bad, anything will break. (Maybe it broke because it was too heavy and stiff???). Alex . . Alex (Sandy) Ferguson Chemistry Department University of Canterbury New Zealand *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Matt, Allison, and All, <lots of snippage> > So Derek is still advocating that heavy boat, heavy paddle baloney, he did > back 17 years ago. I can't figure that out either. Does anyone remember the SeaMaster paddle? Man that thing was a club, but I saw people shell out $$ because it was what the master suggested. <more snippage still> > Allison, unless you are planning a long expedition with heavy > loads and surf > landings my advice is buy a kayak you can lift by yourself. I couldn't agree more. If loading and unloading your boat is easy you will paddle far more often. As Matt points out it is easy to add ballast. My bet is that if you buy a boat that is properly sized for you, you will handle it just fine without ballast once you have some mileage and skills under your belt. If you do need ballast you might contact John winters. I believe he usually has a clearance sale on Canadian Ballast Rocks this time of year, they are typically last falls models but as long as you don't need the latest in color they should serve you well. I think Derek is a terrific entertainer but I would take his advice with a grain of salt. Don't get me wrong, some of his techniques are good and I definitely enjoyed watching him do his demos back in the 80's. I'm just not sure he "field tests" all of his advice. An example would be the bear advice Matt talked about in his post. That said, I do own one of Derek's old designs, the Dawn Treader. No Matt it is not one of the legendary right turn models produced in the NW, and it is actually a nice paddling boat. The workmanship isn't so hot but I don't think that it is especially heavy. I wasn't aware of the problems that Matt points out with the recessed deck fittings but I do like them. They make the boat cleaner visually and there isn't as much to snag on. I think that there are more important factors than weight to consider when choosing the right boat. If you would like advice in that area just say so. I'm sure you will get lots of it here on this list. Cheers, -- Rob Cookson 3 Hats Design INTERNET PRINT ILLUSTRATION 5201 15 Ave NW Suite 220 Seattle, WA 98107 206.851.8202 direct line 206.784.1641 main office phone 206.784.2231 main office fax mailto:rob_at_3hats.com http://www.3hats.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt wrote some interesting stuff about construction and weight of GRP kayaks. I completely agree with matt that the lighter the better, while maintaining acceptable rigidity and strength. I can see no justification in a heavy boat for the sake of having a heavy boat. However when commenting on rigid decks and extra lay ups Matt commented: > can't do). The other major justification for heavyweight kayaks > is the strength and rigidity to withstand boat over boat rescues > which don't work with gear laden kayaks anyway. > I agree that X rescues etc as Derek describes in his book are not ideal in real conditions with laden kayaks, but I would also argue that there is a rescue which works with gear laden boats, which uses the fact that even a narrow boat can lift a swamped boats cockpit clear of the water to drain without any rocking X rescue manoeuvres if the rescuing boat is on its edge rather on its keel - and in so doing uses the inertia of the swamped boat to advantage requiring no lifting effort. Its a very simple elegant rescue, easy to learn and perform, but requiring some confidence. Here is a repost of the description I've posted to the list a couple of times, last time in July: ******* It is possible to perform rescues without any lifting effort, 'bouncing', or great strength. Works best if the boat you are rescuing has a w greenland type shape of bow (knorkdapp is good for this), bow toggles (preferably at the bow!!! not half way back the foredeck - IMHO it's irresponsible to design boats without toggles **at** the bow!!!) and bulkheads (preferably sloping and close to the cockpit) or floatation bags. I can put a swimmer back in their empty boat in under a minute with this technique (try that with a flip and pump rescue - my electric pump takes about four minutes to empty my boat). I posted this procedure to Paddlewise a year ago, but here it is again: The rescue is basically a T rescue, deviating from standard at points 4-7: 1. Get the victim holding on to your bow toggle. Hold onto their boat and secure your paddle in a park. 2. Right the victims boat but do not attempt to drain it at this stage. 3. Hold the swamped boat's bow toggle and manoeuvre the boat 90º to your own. 4. ***This is the clever bit*** If the victims boat is on your right, hold the bow toggle firmly in your left hand. Now simply capsize away from the swamped boat,holding its bow toggle by your chest, until you are lying horizontally on the surface of the water and your boat is ***completely*** on edge - the momentum of your body leaning to the water, your boat's hull rotation, and the shape of the swamped boats bow lifts the victims boat's boat so that it slides effortlessly up and over your kayak, finishing with the swamped boats bow by your head and over your boats right hand freeboard (or vice versa if you are performing the rescue on your left). The more confidently you throw yourself over, the less effort is involved - the swamped boat provides tremendous stability - a 17ft outrigger. 5. With your free right hand rotate the victims boat towards you - The victim's boat does not have to be very far over your own because rolling on your side increases your freeboard and lifts the victims cockpit clear of the surface and drains it completely. 6. Rotate the now empty boat to upright, you are still lying on the water. 7. Hip snap up/push the victims bow back to the water. Again this is effortless, as the victims boat sliding off does most of the work. 8. Swing the victims stern to your bow, raft up and return the victim to their boat. In practice 4-7 becomes one fluid movement taking about ten seconds as opposed to 5 - 10 minutes unable to paddle with a hand pump. As I see it the advantages with this rescue are: You do not need any assistance from the victim, who is always visible to you It is blisteringly quick It is almost effortless It is very stable The victims boat does not interfere with any deck mounted equipment you may have You do not interfere with any deck mounted equipment the victim may have Very simple to learn and perform Hope this is of interest/understandable - If you haven't tried this rescue I cannot recommend it more highly. Cheers Colin Calder 57º19'N 2º10'W *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Matt et al... unless you are planning a long expedition with heavy loads and surf >landings Ultimately I'd like to do some really long trips but my immediate concern is finding something that fits me well and that I can practice a lot in to improve my skills. With my budget and the size of my apartment in mind I've been looking at the CD squall, the Dagger Baja and the Necky Looksha sport. Those are what I'll be playing with at Demo day:) Thanks for the info! *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I have been following this heavy boat/light boat thread with some interest. I have a boat which uses a "light" layup, and I am very leery of taking it out in even mild surf, because I suspect it would get broken. In fact, I know it will break in six-foot surf, because its predecessor (same model, same layup, AFAICT) broke forward of the cockpit when the previous owner took off straight toward the beach on a six-footer. It oil-canned and although the keel survived with no apparent damage, there was a crack on the deck, the side seam delaminated, and the coaming detached from the deck along its sides. So when I hear Matt say don't worry about breaking your boat, I wonder how I can tell what my boat can take. Let's hear what folks who **have broken** boats have to say. (Except for Doug Lloyd -- I think Doug is proud of having broken his British heavy several times!) I'd like to know what model you broke, and how you did it. Then I'd like to hear what the manufacturer said when you took it back, broken, and asked if the boat was guaranteed against breakage. I'll start: Eddyline Wind Dancer, broken in six-foot surf, 200 lb paddler, no surf skills, went straight off, pearled, and oil-canned forward of the cockpit. Eddyline slimed on a cheesy glass patch under the deck and called it good. That patch came off easily (I **scraped** it off with a paint scraper), but the boat was restored to function by replacing the patch, replacing the side seams, and re-attaching the cockpit all of which added about five-six pounds -- making it an American light-heavy, I suspect. BTW, I sold it, and it never came back, so I assume it never broke again. I'd also like to hear Matt describe the conditions his Mariners will survive, and what the nature of the guarantee is if someone brings back a boat broken in surf (not by hitting docks, rocks, or a jet ski!!). Who's next? -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
BaysideBob wrote: > > I'm confused. > > What's the difference between a "taped" seam inside and out > and a "fiberglass" seam inside and out? I think Doug means "polyester resin and glass" when he says "fiberglass" and means "epoxy and glass" when he says "taped." I think he favors the epoxy over the polyester. Perhaps Matt broze can help here, also. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Doug Lloyd": > > > > My Nordkapp never broke up per say. It was the seams that let go. I > > replaced them with tape inside and out, using epoxy resin, and now it is > > "bommer" (as Roger puts it). Dave's Arluk split its seams on our Storm > > Island rescue trip, in heavy open-sea conditions - and he had inside and > > outside seams factory installed, but they were done in fiberglass. I think > > fiberglass seams can have limitations for boats that get abused. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt Broze wrote: (big snip) Of course, most folks would prefer light as a feather, indestructible, and that we pay them to take it off our hands.(Bigger snip) Matt, That's exactly the boat I've been looking for. I'll even forgo my normal charge for taking it off your hands if you'll just cover the freight. Also--any color is fine with me. I just want to be known as one of your easier customers. Steve Holtzman *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Alex wrote: Remember Chris Duff's heavy weight got broken in the surf, if it's that bad, anything will break. (Maybe it broke because it was too heavy and stiff???). ------------- It is my understanding that Chris's boat - a Romany Explorer - was damaged after he exited the boat coming in from the surf and the boat got pushed into some rocks. This was due to Chris's not exiting the boat fast enough and moving it up onto the beach. Doesn't sound like weight or stiffness had anything to do with the damage. This summer I, and others, will have the opportunity to hear about Chris's adventure when he talks at Atlantic Kayak Tour's Symposium in July. best wishes. sid *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I don't think we met. Were you the booth with the guy carving the paddles right there? After a few trips around the room I began to get complete sensory overload, and much of the vending area is a blur to me:) >I don't know if I met >you, Allison, but I met a whole lot of people getting boats and gear for >the >first time. I got a little nervous thinking about all those people with new boats running out and trying them--that water is still pretty cold out there, and I overheard a lot of scary conversations by people who had never sat in a boat before. I hope that everyone who bought a new boat after sitting in it for 1 minute on the floor of the gym is happy with what they got. I talked to one woman on sunday who came back to get some paddle clothing after she dumped her new boat on Saturday and had been rather shocked by the temp et al... I'm glad to see that something like this is really popular and that the sport seems to be thriving, but it is a telling thing when there are three times as many people in the seminar on how to buy a boat than in the one on basic navigation skills. -A *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Allison Corning wrote: > > I'm glad to see that something like this is really popular and that the > sport seems to be thriving, but it is a telling thing when there are three > times as many people in the seminar on how to buy a boat than in the one on > basic navigation skills. > -A > > The navigation class was the only seminar that I attended. I tried to do the buying a boat seminar because my friend was in the process at that time, but she said it ws too crowded and stuffy. o we went back out to the show. The navigation seminar was the one I was most interested in anyway, and my friend got a lot out of it too. On a side note, the next day I took that friend to the Country Canoeist (great shop in Dunbarton, NH) and she is now the proud owner of a CD Solstice. She picks it up on the 25th. Mike -- Paddling along through fog so thick that only one's thoughts are visible, your reverie is abruptly shattered by the ancient cry of a great blue heron as she lifts uncertainly from the brilliant blue of a mussel-shell beach witnessed only by the brooding, wet spruce....your passage home seems as much back through time as it does through space. Mark H Hunt *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Allison Corning wrote: > I'm glad to see that something like this is really popular and that the > sport seems to be thriving, but it is a telling thing when there are three > times as many people in the seminar on how to buy a boat than in the one on > basic navigation skills. > -A This was a concern of mine as well, I guess it shows that I am getting safety conscious in my old age. :-) I discussed it a bit the next day at the Country Canoeist. When I mentioned to Ann (one of the owners) that it concerned me to see all of those boats leaving the parking lot at the show, and wondering how many of them don't have a clue about what they are doing. It was obvious that she was concerned about it as well. The conversation took a down turn when one of the other customers told us that the previous day a new kayaker had died less than 50 miles from us. He was out alone on a river near flood stage. The reports I read indicate that he got caught in a strainer and didn't know how to wet exit. I was happy to note that the rescue demonstration at the Paddlesports show was well attended, though. Mike -- Paddling along through fog so thick that only one's thoughts are visible, your reverie is abruptly shattered by the ancient cry of a great blue heron as she lifts uncertainly from the brilliant blue of a mussel-shell beach witnessed only by the brooding, wet spruce....your passage home seems as much back through time as it does through space. Mark H Hunt *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> > So Derek is still advocating that heavy boat, heavy > > paddle baloney, he did back 17 years ago. > > I can't figure that out either. Does anyone remember > the SeaMaster > paddle? Man that thing was a club, but I saw people shell > out $$ because it was what the master suggested. Maybe it is a lack of perspective or empathy. Once you have the upper body strength to toss a 60-70lb boat on and off a cartop comfortably; its hard to even visualize any benefit to a lighter boat. A 60 lb boat(A) of material X is going to be stronger than a 40 lb boat(A) of material X. Thats just the way it is. Since, to me, there is no benefit intrinsic to the 40lb part; and the additional cost of the heavier layup is not all that great; I scratch my head and wonder, "why would I prefer the 40 lb boat?" If I'm going to drop $2000+ on a kayak, I want the toughest, most indistructable kayak I can get. If I'm going to take that boat on long, unsupported trips, indistructable becomes the most critical feature. Maybe if Derek is still paddling when he's starting to turn 70 and begins to loose most of his upper body strength, his opinion on the lightweight boats will change. Then again, he could always choose to go with a shorter car, kayak wheels, and a roller on the trunk > > landings my advice is buy a kayak you can lift by yourself. > I couldn't agree more. If loading and unloading your boat > is easy you That is certainly true enough. But maybe its not the lifting part, but rather that the roof of the car is to high? I might have trouble putting a 70lb boat down nicely on the top of a tall SUV; but with my Tercel, its easy as pie. > will paddle far more often. As Matt points out it is easy to > add ballast. This is something everyone needs to at least try once; its really pretty cool. Take a dive belt and put it between your legs on the floor, lined up with the centerline of the boat; WALLA instant, massively stable boat. The difference is positively startling. Richard Walker Houston, TX http://www.neosoft.com/~rww/kayak_log.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, R. Walker wrote: > Maybe it is a lack of perspective or empathy. Once you have the > upper body strength to toss a 60-70lb boat on and off a cartop > comfortably; its hard to even visualize any benefit to a lighter boat. As someone who does have the strength to move around a heavy boat I see no reason to do so. I really like having lightweight boats, and I'm willing to pay for them. I just took delivery of a new 35 pound "family" canoe (wenonah jensen17 ultralight layup with 2 sliding seats, no bulkheads, and a stern foot brace). My wife refused to help carry the last heavy canoe we had. > If I'm going to take that boat on long, unsupported trips, > indistructable becomes the most critical feature. For some of us day trippers, indestructable isn't worth the effort. > That is certainly true enough. But maybe its not the lifting part, > but rather that the roof of the car is to high? I might have trouble > putting a 70lb boat down nicely on the top of a tall SUV; but with > my Tercel, its easy as pie. Loading and unloading my 30 pound boat is a breeze, as is carrying it a fair distance. I'm a lot more inclined to grab the light boats for a day trip than I am one of the heavy ones. As such my 50 pound boat stays home more than it deserves to. to each his own. kirk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Our booth was in the far right hand corner from the entrance. We make the wooden laminated paddles with the colored wood, the composite paddles with the colored plastic blades, and the J-Cradles for carrying boats on car roofs. Our logo is a spiral. With luck they dump right away, near shore, then go get help. Richard Allison Corning wrote: > I don't think we met. Were you the booth with the guy carving the paddles > right there? After a few trips around the room I began to get complete > sensory overload, and much of the vending area is a blur to me:) > > >I don't know if I met > >you, Allison, but I met a whole lot of people getting boats and gear for > >the > >first time. > > I got a little nervous thinking about all those people with new boats > running out and trying them--that water is still pretty cold out there, and > I overheard a lot of scary conversations by people who had never sat in a > boat before. I hope that everyone who bought a new boat after sitting in it > for 1 minute on the floor of the gym is happy with what they got. I talked > to one woman on sunday who came back to get some paddle clothing after she > dumped her new boat on Saturday and had been rather shocked by the temp et > al... > > I'm glad to see that something like this is really popular and that the > sport seems to be thriving, but it is a telling thing when there are three > times as many people in the seminar on how to buy a boat than in the one on > basic navigation skills. > -A *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Allison Corning wrote: > > I'm glad to see that something like this is really popular and that the > sport seems to be thriving, but it is a telling thing when there are three > times as many people in the seminar on how to buy a boat than in the one on > basic navigation skills. > -A > > Mike Wrote: >The navigation class was the only seminar that I attended. I tried to do the >buying a boat seminar because my friend was in the process at that time, but she >said it ws too crowded and stuffy. o we went back out to the show. The >navigation seminar was the one I was most interested in anyway, and my friend >got a lot out of it too. >On a side note, the next day I took that friend to the Country Canoeist (great >shop in Dunbarton, NH) and she is now the proud owner of a CD Solstice. She >picks it up on the 25th. I was at that class as well. I was the person who questioned the instructor on why none of his navigation instruction took into account wind, currents or tides. After all the class was called coastal navigation. I was bewildered by that the entire time but maybe it was because there is only so much you can teach in an hour. I did find the suggestion of using "safety bearings" a good idea. For those not in the know, the tip was basically to take a bearing on an object and use that bearing as a guide to stay in a "safe zone". Through out the paddle trip you would take bearing readings to see if you were in or outside of your zone and react accordingly. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> >I was at that class as well. I was the person who questioned the >instructor >on why none of his navigation instruction took into account wind, currents >or tides. After all the class was called coastal navigation. I was >bewildered by that the entire time but maybe it was because there is only >so >much you can teach in an hour. My guess it that that's the case. To that end I thought the idea of saftey bearings was a really good way to impart a maximum degree of saftey in a minimum amount of time. It certainly won't be my last navigation workshop but maybe for some it will be and having a basic idea of how to stay within a safer area could be crucial information for them. BTW, the Kayak fatality was the second paddling fatality in the past few weeks--a canoeist went missing after capsizing on the Merrimack a short while ago. >I did find the suggestion of using "safety bearings" a good idea. For >those >not in the know, the tip was basically to take a bearing on an object and >use that bearing as a guide to stay in a "safe zone". Through out the >paddle trip you would take bearing readings to see if you were in or >outside >of your zone and react accordingly. >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and >not >to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The exchange on Navigation is interesting since it points out two objectives of Kayak Navigation: 1) figuring out a course for where you want to go (with all the trappings such as reference bearings along the way, compass headings etc.) and 2) determining where dangers may be lurking for you. Too, often Navigation courses focus on Number 1 and ignore Number 2. I bet 99 per cent of accidents could be avoided if paddlers did more study of that second objective. It would avoid being surprised by large waves breaking over shoals or being hit by destabilizing side winds. It would keep you out of the way of boat traffic that is emerging out of or turning into docks. No chart is worth much unless you go through the pains of marking crux points, a term I saw Dave Harrison, formerly of Canoe and Kayak, mention; this is just marking X's where you can see from the chart that problems potentially can develop for you. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
It sounds like the Paddesports show in NH was well attended. Since there are a few others coming up including the East Coast Canoe and Kayak festival in Charleston on the 14th I thought I'd start a thread to see who might be attending some of the upcoming shows. First of all, awhile back there was a discussion of starting an "events" calendar on the Paddlewise web site. Was that ever done? If so, I couldn't find it. So, instead I went to the Sea Kayaker magazine site and took a look at their calendar. It's located at http://www.seakayakermag.com/eventscal2.htm. I'm not going to be able to attend the East Coast festival (buying a new house puts a crimp on taking weekend jaunts) but there are a few that I'm considering. On the weekend of May 12-14 there are both the Adirondack Paddlefest 2000 and OkoumeStock (sponsered Chesapeake Light Craft). I'm leaning toward the Adirondack paddlefest because I heard it was a real good time last year and I love the Adirondacks. In July I'd like to go to either the Atlantic Kayak Tours skills workshop or the LL Bean Symposium in Maine (actually, I'd like to do both). So, is anyone planning on going to any of these festivals? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
There are a few other event calenders up. Canoe and Kayaks will be live by later today (http://www.canoekayak.com). The Trade Association of Paddlesports (http://www.gopaddle.org) should have theirs up with online registration. Andree Hurley Viewit Dot Com - ICQ# 27469637 Web Sites for Specialty Businesses - http://www.viewit.com/ On Water Sports - http://www.onwatersports.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>So, is anyone planning on going to any of these festivals? >In July I'd like to go to either the Atlantic Kayak Tours skills workshop >or the LL Bean Symposium in Maine (actually, I'd like to do both). I'm going to the Atlantic Kayak Tours skills workshop. I was told at paddlesports over the weekend that there was less then 10 spots still open. I booked a room at the Peekskill Inn because I'm going by myself. If others are going I'd be interested in sharing a room or Cabin they hold 4. e-mail me: fedo_at_hudsonet.com Joe F. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Actually, several of us - myself, Bob, Sid Stone, to name a few - are volunteering at the AKT Symposium. (Since I'm involved, I guess I shouldn't say that I think it's going to be a fabulous opportunity to work with a bunch of top-flight instructors who are coming in just for the Symposium.) And I beliee there are several other PWers who have signed up. I'm hoping to meet as many of you as possible. Joan On Wed, 05 Apr 2000 13:51:04 -0400 John Fereira <jaf30_at_cornell.edu> writes: > It sounds like the Paddesports show in NH was well attended. Since > there > are a few others coming up including the East Coast Canoe and Kayak > festival in Charleston on the 14th I thought I'd start a thread to > see who > might be attending some of the upcoming shows. > > First of all, awhile back there was a discussion of starting an > "events" > calendar on the Paddlewise web site. Was that ever done? If so, I > couldn't find it. So, instead I went to the Sea Kayaker magazine > site and > took a look at their calendar. It's located at > http://www.seakayakermag.com/eventscal2.htm. > > I'm not going to be able to attend the East Coast festival (buying a > new > house puts a crimp on taking weekend jaunts) but there are a few > that I'm > considering. > > On the weekend of May 12-14 there are both the Adirondack Paddlefest > 2000 > and OkoumeStock (sponsered Chesapeake Light Craft). I'm leaning > toward the > Adirondack paddlefest because I heard it was a real good time last > year and > I love the Adirondacks. > > In July I'd like to go to either the Atlantic Kayak Tours skills > workshop > or the LL Bean Symposium in Maine (actually, I'd like to do both). > > So, is anyone planning on going to any of these festivals? > > ************************************************************************* ** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author > and not > to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission > Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > ************************************************************************* ** ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>> Since I am introducing myself here, I should mention to the one whose name is in my deleted files that I can make you a custom length Greenland style paddle if the $190 price tag is not too steep. The blades are not customized, but they are fairly universally appropriate (3 1/2" wide at the tip) and pretty comfortable. The loom is slightly smaller in diameter than purists would make, and more oval as well. The paddle has gotten good reviews from those who use it. That said, I too actually recommend trying to make your own from a straight grained cedar or spruce two by four. It is an inexpensive, fun, and rewarding way to get a nice paddle. I am more than happy to give paddle design or woodworking advice to you as you progress, or to anyone else, for that matter, who undertakes to make their own paddle. Richard Frost Malone of Maine www.maloneofmaine.com >> Instructions are available at http://www.isk.canoe-kayak.org/resources.html. Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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