Hi Doug, all, Doug Lloyd wrote: > > Vince Dalrymple said: > > >>With water temp. about 40 and air temp. around 50, he came paddling > with > our group dressed in a shorty (or farmer john) wetsuit. Pushed against > the ~20 kt. wind down to a play area and surfed back > > That is very cold water indeed. Was he wearing an appropriate dry top? > What kind of head gear? I don't remember if he was wearing any sort of paddle jacket or not - no dry top, no head wear to my memory. Whatever he was wearing on top, if anything was short sleeve, though. Real tough guy who was comfortable in the water (though I do wonder if there was some amount of initial cold shock which kept him from thinking "switch sides", coupled with the surprise from his first sea kayak capsize), calmly talked his way through the rescue, paddled another couple miles back to the put-in without complaint, then debriefed over lunch. To my knowledge, he didn't normally winter paddle and may have been talked into that one. Paddling with a group of rescue competent friends in conditions which he could handle fine (on all but this day) also went into his decision, I'd bet. Still, I should not have mentioned how he was attired here on PW as it sets a rather bad example of "smart paddling" and would _not_ work for probably + 90% of the PWers out there, including myself. His time in the water was under 5 minutes, how much under, I don't remember. ---------------------------------------------------------------- > What kind of boat was he in? WW? Sea kayak? What width? Was this his > normal kayak? Loaned? Had he hardly ever paddled it, even if it was his > own? Seda Glider (19'x22"), less than half a year old. Probably hadn't paddled it that much before the incident. Don't know if he had it foamed out at the time. Still races it successfully, though. Can't remember what he paddled before (P&H Sirius, maybe). --------------------------------------------------------------- > >>I watched him set up for a roll on his > good side, down wind as his capsized boat turned to broach the wind / > waves. As soon as he went for the hip flick, the paddle shaft went > vertical and back over he went (C2C, I think). Good pause before the > next attempt - same side. Same vertical shaft and failed roll (Sweep > Roll, I think). Another pause. His last roll attempt (as I reached > him) was an extended pawlata (same side again) with the same results.>> > > His problem was obvious...no neck-thrustn', cervical-cracking, wayward, > full-on head dink (!), and the even more obvious...obviously he was > using a feathered paddle. :-) Aye, feathered, and composite, too - a "traditionalist's nightmare, indeed! ;-) Regarding the cervical crackin' head dink, I just don't know about that day. I was on the windward side only seeing hull movements and hand positions on the paddle. What I know of the roll types was based on his "natural preference" WW C2C for the first roll. Slower and "more deliberate" for the second, which makes me theorize the switch to Sweep roll. Either way, it wasn't discussed during the debrief after. Neither was the head dink. However, he was instrumental in teaching me to handroll (borrowed WW Medieval), knows and shows _proper_ head dink for all non layback rolls. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>With my reaching him on the upwind side and his rolls being on the > down > wind side, he didn't know I was there for a bow rescue and popped out of > > his boat. Surprisingly, he was a lot more frustrated with three > consecutive blown rolls than he was cold (guess you WW paddlers already > have ice in your veins). Helped clear his boat and got him back in it > as the other paddlers arrived and everything worked out.<< > > Boat-over-boat, T-rescue, pump-out, or???? Don't remember for sure, but seems it was probably an Over the Boats Reentry followed by a Pump-Out. Given the time period, it was before my formal rescue training. I had seen T-Rescues done, but may not have been practiced with them at that time. BTW, isn't the Boat over Boat the same as a T-Rescue (or slight variation of it)? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >>His problem had been that his broached boat was being blown over the > paddle with more force than he could apply downwards to execute the > roll. I kind of doubt that even Doug Lloyd or Matt Broze could have > pulled off the down wind rolls he was trying that day.<< > > Can't speak for Matt (he keeps most of his gonzo stuff to himself, being > responsible and all). As for me, no, I probably would not have executed > a lee-sided broach roll, but then I would not usually have attempted one > either (or if I did, I'd try one and only one, then quickly shift under > water to an up-wind roll which actually takes some of the work out of it > for you). NOTICE TO ALL NOVICE PADDLERS LEARNING THEIR ROLLS - get comfortable enough just "hanging out" while capsized to be patient, think, and execute properly what you need to do. And learn to swim the boat from side to side while capsized. Even if you don't have a working off side roll, it might come surprisingly easily with these sorts of conditions _helping_ you to roll. > I've done that in some much higher winds/seas than you allude > to, and I will periodically go out precisely into those conditions just > to practice that very same maneuver. <snip>I have practiced coming part way up on > the downwind side, then letting gravity pull me back down from partial > success to fully capsized, whereupon momentum can help you come back up > on the up-wind side (depends on PFD buoyancy and how big a footprint you > present to the water). Also, down-wind rolling isn't that difficult > with longer wave periods if you time it during the trough, where the > gusts go overhead and the wave hasn't slammed the hull yet. On the > up-wind roll-up, one does it precisely _when_ the trough passes by and > the wave does hit. I'm not a super big guy, but do have a bit of weight > atop, so I've had to develop these strategies to get back up after a > knock down. I concur. All very good advice which does deserve to be reread. Just for the record the waves were 2~2 1/2' short typical Bay chop. A guy could really get really spoiled with all that long wave period stuff Doug has available at his doorstep, eh? ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>Lesson #1 - Can't roll up on one side due to the forces working > against > you? > Switch sides and make the conditions work for you. > He could have possibly hand rolled his way back up > on his off, but up wind side _that_ day. > Best example I know to have an offside roll, even a sloppy one > ;-) > Lesson #2 - There's no such thing as a 100% BOMBPROOF roll > So have a good Reentry & Roll in the repertoire and > always approach the sea with respect before it teaches you > humility>> > > Didn't read far enough ahead on your post, Vince. I see you have some > good conclusions here. It is good to realize, however (opinion time!), > that a roll to me is not a sign of failure. Coming out of your boat is. > Once you have left the security of your vessel, you have failed > miserably. You are a failure in my book if you do that. I've been a > failure in my book a couple of times! Anything that keeps you in your > cockpit after a partial or fully consummated capsize is fine, be it a > reliable roll, sculling-to-upright, ready-to-use paddle float on the > rear deck, hand-roll, throwing stick roll, or a "Back Up" Co2 rescue > device, whatever. > > The off-side roll thing can be a pain. Practice practice. Keep up some > kind of stretching regime, as that may be part of the problem. Surfing > with moderate high braces into medium sized waves on your off-side is > also a good way to develop some confidence with the off-side problem. ANOTHER NOTE FOR NOVICES STILL ON THIS THREAD - keep your elbows in fairly close if you practice this (try not to let 'em get above your shoulder) or you'll be risking quick shoulder dislocation. > Learn to turn you bow into the wind and waves, while upside down. Its > not that difficult using an extended Pawlata, and you don't need a full > 90 degree turn - just lots of lung capacity and will power. And maybe a low volume hard shell, round decked boat. Nordcapps seem to work better than Khatsalanos in this department. Or is it just me? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Vince, you guys had the lovely "perfect storm" on you coast few years > ago (the movie is coming out at the end of June). Did any paddlers get > out from your area to try it out, even if in a protected basin or > whatever? I thought you were hogging all the "candy" to yourself up there in B.C., Doug. ;-) Do you know the date? If so, it would have been here on the Chesapeake Bay as opposed to the Atlantic. Geez, I thought the movie would have been based on some S. Pacific Typhoon or something, not some wimpy Atlantic Hurricane or Nor'Easter. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Our club was practicing under a bridge here in Victoria a few years ago, <big snip> > I immediately tripped over, leaving myself hanging upside > down. All I remember is hitting my head on an ebb stream submerged rock > in mid channel, and coming to the surface gasping for life and air. An > instructor trainer in training rescued me, and couldn't understand why I > had wet exited in front of the students <timely snip> For shame. Our very own PW poster boy out of his boat having blown his roll. For shame. [I know, I know. Today's words I'll eat tomorrow, but in the meantime...] Vince *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************Received on Mon May 29 2000 - 21:02:42 PDT
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