Hi Josh, Ah........ and so we cut to the quick! Though I am pretty sure that I am not the one being quoted, I have said much of the same, and agree in theory with most of the quoted comments. If anyone other than you had made this post, it would have been considered a major troll. But from you, I hope that paddlewise et al will consider the accuracy of the information with a minimum of passion in their responses. << (British Boats) . . . . Narrow (& tippy), relatively fast, good tracking (slow to turn) low volume (less windage/less cargo), snug-fitting (more control/less comfortable) & extremely durable (& heavy) all of which adds up to an extremely seaworthy craft that requires effort and skill to pilot and enjoy. While American boats tend to be: Wide (& stable), slower, maneuverable (poor tracking) higher volume (more cargo/more windage, loose fitting (more comfortable/less control) & light (but somewhat fragile) all of which adds up to a very comfortable craft for gentle waters that requires little skill to pilot and none to enjoy.>> If we were to eliminate the British / American boat tags and stick to hull forms only, then the generalizations would be true based on my personal experience. British craft do tend to be narrow, low volume, tippy, less comfortable, more durable and very seaworthy in the hands of a skilled pilot. In general they are not a beginners boat because to paddle them in conditions requires that the pilot have good bracing skills. My experience with British boats is limited to NDK, Valley and P&H. The P&H Orion and the Valley Skerray are two boats that offer more stability for a beginner but are still suitable for rough seas work. Remember the British boat industry started with the Valley Anas Acuta, a fibreglas copy of a Greenland boat. It's not surprising that the Brits have followed the narrow, high performance model in their other designs. The American sea kayak market grew out of the canoe market. Placid waters are available to a large segment of our (North American) population, so it's only natural that boats with the widest appeal (if not beam) would be designed to handle less aggressive conditions. <<A skilled driver would much rather drive a Porsche than Mack truck, although the truck is certainly better in an accident and more stable on the road?>> For a closer analogy consider the market for "Cafe Racers" motorcycles: These are small, uncomfortable motorcycles with a high power to weight ratio, "Crotch Rockets" and not the stuff of Dr Iverbon. Who would ride such a bike? Anyone who wanted to pretend for a short while to be a racer. The larger, more comfortable bikes are safer but also have less spirit. The "racers" are just plain fun to drive, not practical but lots of fun. North American boats like the CD Gulfstream / Slipstream (based on the Orion) are the exception. These are very seaworthy craft, not especially tippy but still somewhat delicate compared to their British counterparts. The CD Caribou is quite high performance though not particularly fast. Mariner boats are extremely seaworthy, though I suspect have somewhat higher windage than the average British boat. Given the whole spectrum, the British tend to make most of the highest performance boats and North America tends to make most of the other 95% of the spectrum. Jed (who recently took delivery of a NDK Explorer, but still wishes CD would build a GTS with a skeg.) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Could someone please explain to me why tippy boats are more seaworthy. I hear this a lot. Thanks. Cheers, Rob, Cookson "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" Benjamin Franklin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
. I would also think that Mark L (as part of a long post I was mostly in agreement wrote this part that is so contrary to my experience that I'm wondering it he meant to say it): >>the tendency to lay up the boats by hand may reflect the fact that the Brits often confront far more difficult coastlines and conditions than Americans do. Thus, the need for a tougher boat. Hell. . . I'll take the easier coastlines any day, thank you. << Why aren't they all made in plastic then, Duane where are you. All kidding aside, I don't think you will find may experts who would claim that hand lay-ups are pound for pound tougher than vacuum-bagging. while it is often true that N.American manufacturers use the tougher vacuum-bagging process to make lighter and thinner laminates on their kayaks to satisfy the "lighter weight is better" market over here (and maybe their is often less need for heavyweight kayaks because of how many "sea" kayaks are used in America). . These lightweight vacuum-bagged boats are more subject to folding damage--even when, as often is the case the thin vacuum bagged boats are still tougher against impact damage because a much stronger woven roving cloth can be used and at higher glass densities--and there is more flexing to absorb a blow--this flexibility is also why new plastic kayaks are tough). The decks of most British kayaks seen in N.America have recessed deck fittings. The only feasible way to hand laminate over these bumps in the mold is to use chopped strand mat which must then be laid up much thicker to get sufficient strength from this relatively brittle resin rich material. Even though heavier these kayaks are not necessarily tougher. There is nothing about vacuum-bagging that means the laminate can not be made thicker and way tougher if one is willing to carry some extra weight. Mark continues: >>There is also a tendency to identify British boats with two or three designers -- Hutchinson and Nigel Dennis come to mind. That seems simplistic, as well. The whole thing is really a distraction, and of little if any real use. Just my opinion, worth what you paid for it.<< Yes, we tend to look at the British sea kayaking scene from the perspective of those who have only seen the kayaks that have been imported to North America. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt Broze offered some observations about my suggestion that perhaps Brit boats are often laid up by hand because of the rough shorelines they must often confront, saying, among other things: > All kidding aside, I don't think you will find may experts who would claim > that hand lay-ups are pound for pound tougher than vacuum-bagging. [snip] > There is nothing about vacuum-bagging that means the laminate can not be > made thicker and way tougher if one is willing to carry some extra weight. Good points. I guess what I meant was that the way some of the British boats are built -- with heavy layups -- may reflect their perceived need for a tough boat. At least it seems to me I've heard that said. But it seems to me you're correct in saying that the tough boat could be built either way - it's a matter of the content of the layup, not the method. I wonder if the cost of the tooling-up may be a problem for some of the British builders. . . ? Have NDK made any noise about switching to vacuum bagging? Mark L *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Wow, quit the thread I have come back to. I find it a bit odd that we are characterizing boats as "tippy". What happened to primary and secondary stability? By far, the most popular British boat in these parts is the Romany 18'. While I can see people wanting to characterize this boat as tippy, it really is pretty stable. Sure, that primary stability makes it easy to edge but the secondary makes it really to hold it there. It is anything but tippy. Meanwhile, the Solstice GTS I paddle is very tippy if you consider only its secondary stability. It doesn't go over on edge as willingly as many boats, but once it does you need to really hold it there or over you go. As for British boats tracking better. Good god, is there a boat that tracks better than the GTS sans rudder/skeg? I have also paddled many Necky's, another company whose boats I would classify as somewhat "tippy". Well, if forced to. My last gripe (and this has probably come up already). Since when is the N.A. coastline less rugged than the UK's? My primary stomping grounds is Lake Superior which has about four cups worth of sand in the entire lake. It is a lot of exposed rocky coast where unannounced storms cause many a rocky surf landing. Most of the boaters I paddle with have a lot of gel-coat repairs and a lot of scars from Superior, regardless of where the boat comes from. Interestingly, many ship captains have long considered Superior to have some of the most dangerous waters in the world. The best boat is the one your paddling. -Patrick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 8:44 AM -0700 5/14/00, Rob Cookson wrote: >Could someone please explain to me why tippy boats are more seaworthy. I >hear this a lot. Thanks. The obvious answer you will hear is that a stable boat will lean to match the angle of the wave face. However, this is not a complete answer. It is strange but true that on the angled face of the wave "down" feels like it is perpendicular to the wave face (apparent gravity is always perpendicular to the wave face). In other words if you held a plumb bob out in front of you above the centerline of the boat, when a wave comes by, it would continue to point at the centerline even when the boat is tipped at an angle. Strange but true. This being the case, "normal" waves don't do much to tip you regardless of the width of the boat. What generally tips people over in normal waves is their reaction to them, not the boat's. When the stability starts to make a difference is when the waves are breaking. In this case the top of the wave breaks free and slides down the face. If the kayak also breaks free and slides down the face, trouble can start. The force of the water moving sideways past the bottom of the boat adds rotational forces to the mix. These rotational are best overcome by leaning the boat towards the on coming waves. This is easier to do with a less stable boat. Being able to lean the boat aggressively also lets the paddler place a brace into the more solid water above/beyond the break. I suspect it is the greater ease of the paddler to perform an aggressive brace that improves the appearant seaworthiness of the less stable boat. With an unskilled paddler, the more stable boat is probably more seaworthy. So I think it is not the tippy boat that is more seaworthy, but the tippy boat with a skilled paddler. Nick Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St, Suite I Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 Schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ >>>>"It's not just Art, It's a Craft!"<<<< *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Nick, Jed and all, > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net]On Behalf Of Nick Schade > > > At 8:44 AM -0700 5/14/00, Rob Cookson wrote: > >Could someone please explain to me why tippy boats are more seaworthy. I > >hear this a lot. Thanks. My question was a bit of a troll and for that I apologize. I do appreciate the responses I received. I often hear mystical qualities attached to boats or paddles of different shapes and sizes or national origin without a whole bunch of reasoning. Often boats reach cult status in certain regions and to paddle something other than the cult boat of choice is to suffer constant shame and ridicule (mostly light hearted). The attitude "real men paddle brand x" becomes tiring after a while. I'm not in any way against tippy boats. I have an old Dawn Treader that I would consider fairly tippy and have spent quit a lot of time in various Nordkapps. I really enjoy paddling tippy boats and I totally agree that they are easier to put on edge. However, if you were going to toss me out into a hurricane and tell me to survive, I would choose a boat that had a little more stability (and was much shorter and had some rocker) like a whitewater boat. <SNIP> > This being the case, "normal" waves don't do much to tip you regardless of > the width of the boat. What generally tips people over in normal waves is > their reaction to them, not the boat's. > > When the stability starts to make a difference is when the waves are > breaking. In this case the top of the wave breaks free and slides down the > face. If the kayak also breaks free and slides down the face, trouble can > start. The force of the water moving sideways past the bottom of the boat > adds rotational forces to the mix. These rotational are best overcome by > leaning the boat towards the on coming waves. This is easier to do with a > less stable boat. Being able to lean the boat aggressively also lets the > paddler place a brace into the more solid water above/beyond the break. As long as the paddler can lean the boat it is tippy enough. It doesn't take a very big lean to prevent capsize. > > I suspect it is the greater ease of the paddler to perform an aggressive > brace that improves the apparent seaworthiness of the less stable boat. > With an unskilled paddler, the more stable boat is probably more > seaworthy. Yes and this is my point, and it is one of my pet peeves. > So I think it is not the tippy boat that is more seaworthy, but the tippy > boat with a skilled paddler. > Yes, I agree. I also think the same skilled paddler would keep the stable boat upright as well. One thing that I believe is easy to loose track of is that most of us don't spend all of our time paddling in gale force conditions and our boats should reflect a compromise design features that reflect the way a boat will be used. My experience has been that as long as the kayak is matched to the paddler's size so the paddler can lean the kayak the stable boat will stay upright just fine in rough conditions. Never have I seen a single example where an expert in a stable kayak capsized before an expert in a tippy kayak. My experience has been that both experts will stay upright until the point of exhaustion or the point of being caught off guard and then capsize. The tippy boat is easier to roll as a recovery but most stable boats can be rolled too. On the other hand if you put an intermediate paddler in a tippy boat and an intermediate paddler in a stable boat and then increase the severity of the conditions the stable boat is upright longer. At least that has been my experience. I would say that tippy boats are often easier to roll but I think that a lot of novices get sucked into some mythical belief that a skinny tippy boat will magically become stable in rough water. I've seen a lot of paddlers in a variety of conditions in a variety of boats and I have to say that it is usually the skinny ones that I see upside down. Cheers, Rob Cookson *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rob wrote; > Could someone please explain to me why tippy boats are more seaworthy. I > hear this a lot. Thanks. > No. Cheers, John Winters Redwing Designs Web site address, http://home.ican.net/~735769Cheers, *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Patrick Maun wrote: > > I find it a bit odd that we are > characterizing boats as "tippy". What happened to primary and > secondary stability? I'll take responsibility for that. Having been new to the sport eight?nine years ago, as Josh is now, primary and secondary stability were mere words attached to foggy notions. I was trying to strip the excess terminology and technical reasoning to better get an (incomplete) idea across. If it worked, I'm satisfied. He'll learn the jargon and all the technical explanations soon enough monitoring this list. No need to send him off into a fog bank, eh? > By far, the most popular British boat in these > parts is the Romany 18'. While I can see people wanting to > characterize this boat as tippy, it really is pretty stable. Sure, > that primary stability makes it easy to edge but the secondary makes > it really to hold it there. It is anything but tippy. I concur, but to Josh, it is apparently lacking of "comfortable" initial stability that he would post what he did. Do you think you would have felt the Romany to be rock solid the very first time you settled into a human powered craft narrower than a rowboat? I'll be honest by saying that I thought my Necky Skeena (under 17'Lx24"B) was tippy (plenty of initial stability, considerably lower secondary). Didn't last long, though. By the time I sold it, I could paddle it from a standing position. These days, most anything over 21" beam is boringly stable, even in conditions. Give me a 18~19" beam prototype racing boat (clean - no skeg, no rudder) and I'll top its hull speed surfing the steep bay chop around here - wave hopping. But that's just me and my idea of fun. Not necessarily anyone else's... > Meanwhile, the > Solstice GTS I paddle is very tippy if you consider only its > secondary stability. It doesn't go over on edge as willingly as many > boats, but once it does you need to really hold it there or over you > go. > > As for British boats tracking better. Good god, is there a boat that > tracks better than the GTS sans rudder/skeg? Not too many. I consider paddling my friend's Solstice akin to driving a bus, but a fairly fast bus. :-) Vince *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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