Contacted Garmin by email on this issue a week ago today, asking for clarification on their claim for submersibility when Garmin reps allegedly said that the battery compartment did not maintain water integrity under the specification conditions for the claimed "submersibility". Garmin's web site said that it could take between five and seven days (not specified as "business days") to respond. Still waiting. Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jack et al, Here's the response that I received from Garmin regarding the "submersibility" of their eTrex; Thank you for contacting Garmin, It is not waterproof, just water resistant. We have had a few reports of water getting in the battery compartment. Have a nice day Larry Keegan Customer Service Rep. GARMIN International Dave Seng Juneau, Alaska > -----Original Message----- > From: JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com [mailto:JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com] > Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 4:19 AM > To: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net > Subject: [Paddlewise] eTrex "submersibility" > > > Contacted Garmin by email on this issue a week ago today, > asking for clarification on their claim for submersibility > when Garmin reps allegedly said that the battery compartment > did not maintain water integrity under the specification > conditions for the claimed "submersibility". Garmin's web > site said that it could take between five and seven days (not > specified as "business days") to respond. Still waiting. > > Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I kind of posted my "eTrex" message without supplying very much contextual information - so to clarify things a little I've added some more info below: > -----Original Message----- > From: Seng, Dave [mailto:Dave_Seng_at_health.state.ak.us] > > Here's the response that I received from Garmin regarding the > "submersibility" of their eTrex; > > Thank you for contacting Garmin, > > It is not waterproof, just water resistant. We have had a few > reports of > water getting in the battery compartment. > > Have a nice day > > Larry Keegan > Customer Service Rep. > GARMIN International To which Jack replied in comment (back-channel and quoted in partial context): "Good grief, they sell something based on a "submersible" standard and they tell you it's only water-resistant? Did you state you were asking about the e-Trex?" to which I replied with my original question to Garmin which was: "I want to buy an eTrex, but am concerned about the true submersibility of the unit. My primary concern is the battery compartment. Is it truly designed to be waterproof, or simply water-resistant?" Side Note - eTrex specs claim IEC 527 IP X 7 standards for waterproofness - which I interpret as: "Ingress of water in quantities causing harmful effects shall not be possible when the enclosure is continuously immersed in water under standardized conditions of pressure and time" I found IEC standards at http://www.manufacturing.net/magazine/ce/archives/1999/ctl0301.99/03ebas2.ht m Dave Seng Juneau, Alaska *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Okay, Dave got his response first, but mine was longer. I've deleted the customer service person's name, but I have no concern about passing along the guy's info to the list --- and, I'll have to say, Garmin will hear from me on this again. First, the note just received. ___ Thanks for your e-mail to GARMIN! The "submersible" qualification you refer to is the IPX7 standard the eTrex falls under. This literally means that if you submerge the eTrex under three feet of water for up to 30 minutes, no water will leak into the GPS housing. It does not mean, nor do we claim, that water will not leak into the battery department. Practically, an IPX7 rating means you can drop the eTrex into a creek or a baitwell, pull it out, and keep using it. It's still wise, as it is with any electronic equipment that uses batteries and gets wet, to dry out the battery compartment as soon as possible. In your case, sea kayaking has the potential to subject a submerged eTrex to greater water pressure than being held under 3 feet of water. You might consider putting the eTrex in some kind of waterproof pouch for this use. _____ Okay, so, if I have this straight, the IPX7 standard states that, if I have this "submersible" GPS and it gets wet on my deck, it may or may not work. If I very carefully lower it in the water and retrieve it, it won't work 'cause it's very possible that it will short out the batteries, and be totally useless for the rest of the trip, assuming I could find where I was going on the chart. Just wanted to make sure I understand how Garmin defines what the specs really mean. Bag the subsersible! What unmitigated bullshit! Sorry, it really is! The little yellow peril goes back tomorrow! Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Shish! Like I originally thought might happen, we ended up receiving two totally different responses. Manufacturers definitely have the opportunity to play games with waterproof specs because there really isn't any authoritative governing body examining things. PW strikes again! It's unfortunate that they can play games with the specs like this, but the nice thing is that we have a forum in which we can dig out the truth and reveal the details. Hopefully pointed questions like this will eventually force manufacturers to "ante up" products with "real world" specs, rather than a bunch of BS driven by their marketing departments. Then again...like they say.... you can fool all of the people some of the time..... Dave Seng ex- software developer who knows all too well the power of marketing depts.) Juneau, Alaska JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com wrote: > > Okay, Dave got his response first, but mine was longer. I've deleted the customer service person's name, but I have no concern about passing along the guy's info to the list --- and, I'll have to say, Garmin will hear from me on this again. First, the note just received. > > ___ > > Thanks for your e-mail to GARMIN! The "submersible" qualification you refer to is the IPX7 standard the eTrex falls under. This literally means that if you submerge the eTrex under three feet of water for up to 30 minutes, no water will leak into the GPS housing. It does not mean, nor do we claim, that water will not leak into the battery department. Practically, an IPX7 rating means you can drop the eTrex into a creek or a > baitwell, pull it out, and keep using it. It's still wise, as it is with any electronic equipment that uses batteries and gets wet, to dry out the battery compartment as soon as possible. In your case, sea kayaking has the potential to subject a submerged eTrex to greater water pressure than being held under 3 feet of water. You might consider putting the eTrex in some > kind of waterproof pouch for this use. > > _____ > > Okay, so, if I have this straight, the IPX7 standard states that, if I have this "submersible" GPS and it gets wet on my deck, it may or may not work. If I very carefully lower it in the water and retrieve it, it won't work 'cause it's very possible that it will short out the batteries, and be totally useless for the rest of the trip, assuming I could find where I was going on the chart. Just wanted to make sure I understand how Garmin defines what the specs really mean. Bag the subsersible! > > What unmitigated bullshit! Sorry, it really is! The little yellow peril goes back tomorrow! > > Jack Martin > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave Seng wrote: > > Shish! Like I originally thought might happen, we ended up receiving > two totally different responses. Manufacturers definitely have the > opportunity to play games with waterproof specs because there really > isn't any authoritative governing body examining things. PW strikes > again! It's unfortunate that they can play games with the specs like > this, but the nice thing is that we have a forum in which we can dig out > the truth and reveal the details. Hopefully pointed questions like this > will eventually force manufacturers to "ante up" products with "real > world" specs, rather than a bunch of BS driven by their marketing > departments. Then again...like they say.... you can fool all of the > people some of the time..... > > Dave Seng Garmin is not alone in this -- many will recall the "VHF wars" discussed here some months ago. I suspect the bottom line may be that almost any battery compartment which allows the user to replace the batteries (read: "uses alkalines or other non-rechargeable batteries") is prone to water entry. Exception: small-volume/heavily gasketed compartments like the one on my Pentax WR-90, which has withstood water entry for four seasons so far. A letter-writing campaign, *directed toward Garmin's CEO,* might be the most effective tactic. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR -- > JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com wrote: > > > > Okay, Dave got his response first, but mine was longer. I've deleted the customer service person's name, but I have no concern about passing along the guy's info to the list --- and, I'll have to say, Garmin will hear from me on this again. First, the note just received. > > Thanks for your e-mail to GARMIN! The "submersible" qualification you refer to is the IPX7 standard the eTrex falls under. This literally means that if you submerge the eTrex under three feet of water for up to 30 minutes, no water will leak into the GPS housing. It does not mean, nor do we claim, that water will not leak into the battery department. Practically, an IPX7 rating means you can drop the eTrex into a creek or a > > baitwell, pull it out, and keep using it. It's still wise, as it is with any electronic equipment that uses batteries and gets wet, to dry out the battery compartment as soon as possible. In your case, sea kayaking has the potential to subject a submerged eTrex to greater water pressure than being held under 3 feet of water. You might consider putting the eTrex in some > > kind of waterproof pouch for this use. > > > > _____ > > > > Okay, so, if I have this straight, the IPX7 standard states that, if I have this "submersible" GPS and it gets wet on my deck, it may or may not work. If I very carefully lower it in the water and retrieve it, it won't work 'cause it's very possible that it will short out the batteries, and be totally useless for the rest of the trip, assuming I could find where I was going on the chart. Just wanted to make sure I understand how Garmin defines what the specs really mean. Bag the submersible! [snip] *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
What's the big deal? So the eTrex has a waterproof case, and only a water resistant battery box. I've an eTrex, and my observation is the battery box is yet to leak with the unit on my foredeck with waves regularly washing over the decks and over the unit. If at some stage in the future it does let in a few drops, no big deal, I'll dry out the battery compartment. If you are really worried then get some silicon o-ring grease, and grease the battery box, tape around the battery box lid seal, or put it in a dry bag. Problem solved. Ha, you'll be wanting waterproof maps next ;-) BTW, I like my eTrex, and I would recommend one for sea kayaking. Cheers Colin Calder 57º19'N 2º10'W *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave Kruger wrote: > Garmin is not alone in this -- many will recall the "VHF wars" discussed here > some months ago. I suspect the bottom line may be that almost any battery > compartment which allows the user to replace the batteries (read: "uses > alkalines or other non-rechargeable batteries") is prone to water entry. > Exception: small-volume/heavily gasketed compartments like the one on my > Pentax WR-90, which has withstood water entry for four seasons so far. > I don't get it. I started thinking about it on my vacation. I've always been able to buy the argument, supporting Garmin and others, that the $3.00 parts (batteries) are expendable, but the $$$ parts (electronics) are waterproof. On vacation, I thought about my Minolta camera, brought along for snorkling. Waterproof to 15 ft, period. Batteries (small door) and film compartment (much bigger door than the battery compartment of any GPS/VHS whatever that we've been discussing). So what's the big deal with these electronic gadgets? The camera just has a big O-ring around the film door. Why can't they do the same with the other devices' battery compartments. Those doors are smaller than the film door on my camera. The engineer in me says - can do... if they had the will. No more support - they _should_ be waterproof! > A letter-writing campaign, *directed toward Garmin's CEO,* might be the most > effective tactic. We're a small market - that's why so few waterproof gadgets exist. I'd like the to go after Nokia, Motorola and other cell phone companies - I've seen blocks of salt last longer in water than their products. And these "portable" units are plenty fragile. Mike (who's grumpy - see my other post). *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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