Just last week, I started to teach rolling first with hand paddles then quickly moving to "hands-only" rolls. I have been able to teach 4 people how to roll so far using this approach. ( I was student #3) In each of the four cases, the "student" has been able to roll consistently, without a paddle within 45 minutes of starting their training. Most of these students were new to the sport, in good physical condition and had fair to good flexibility. I was the only exception to the aforementioned traits. The hand roll I taught them is a two hand C to C. Conversely, I have had much slower and less predictable results teaching paddle rolls. Certainly the paddle roll students have been more mature, less flexible and have had more paddling experience. Maybe their experience has hindered their mental flexibility. I have had success improving weak rolls by identifying weaknesses in technique, but lately I've been growing somewhat frustrated with my inability to get my "not yet" rolling students to follow the proper technique consistently enough to progress quickly. Does anyone else have any insights into teaching rolling via this approach. I have a skill group that meets once a week. 20 seakayakers hungry to learn to roll, but they keep repeating the same problems of pulling down on the paddle rather than sweeping out on the surface and then pulling with their arms rather than working the hip rotation. Granted some of the paddler to boat fits are still sloppy, maybe I should concentrate on checking boat fit first, then move on to the exercises. Or possibly the difference is the one-on-one attention. Does anyone have some new approaches the I can try? Thanks in advance for your input and ideas. Jed (Who will never divulge his real name) Luby Goffstown, NH *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 7/13/00 7:43:21 AM Central Daylight Time, LedJube_at_aol.com writes: << but they keep repeating the same problems of pulling down on the paddle rather than sweeping out on the surface and then pulling with their arms rather than working the hip rotation. >> Very interesting Jed, Did learning the hand roll first cure the pulling down problem when they tried rolling with the paddle or did they still have that problem when they restarted using the paddle? I have seen the hand-roll in the "Grace Under Pressure" video. It is a C-to-C roll but I am not sure what you mean by a two-handed C-to-C. Is this different from what is in the "Grace Under Pressure" video (if you have seen the video)? Are you teaching in a pool? In a pool I was not bothered with trying and missing rolls. When I was being taught in salt-water I liked it a lot better when the instructors did things in real small steps such that I never spent much time flailing away under water. Does the hand-roll first method result in more initial "failures" than the "holding hand-supporting paddle at 90 deg -guide paddle sweep" progression that many instructors use? Are you using some kind of progression in teaching the hand roll? Mark J. Arnold MJAkayaker_at_aol.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi, I am just curious. What boats did you use? Seakayaks or WW boats? What I understand is that learning rolling without a paddle will focus you on learning the proper "body" technique. But learning to handroll a seakayak in a single session without previous experience sounds really remarkable. The guy who showed me the sweep roll got me rolling within ~40 minutes, in a whitewater boat in the pool (<50% blow rate). After switching to my seakayak I basically started with a 80 % blow rate. Now I am working on getting back up without going down already in setup position. works with my Greenlander, but with the Eurostyle paddle I frequently miss the right blade angle and I am unable to correct that underwater (I let go the Euro stick and grab the Greenlander from the front deck to roll up -or bail out). Anyway congratulations.. Cheers Ulli Dr. Ulli Hoeger Dept. Physiology and Biophysics Dalhousie University Halifax, B3H4H7, Nova Scotia Canada Phone I : 902-494-2673 Fax: 902-494-1685 Phone II :902-488-6796 http://is.dal.ca/~uhoeger *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ulli writes: "(I let go the Euro stick and grab the Greenlander from the front deck to roll up " This means you find the Greenlander much easier to use and roll up with? I am becoming much more interested in having a storm paddle on the front deck as the spare. Regards, Peter T. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
My biggest success in teaching the roll was handroll first, then paddle. He's still working on the reliable screw roll, but man, can the guy ever handroll! I attributed it to the fact that he's a SCUBA diver, and had his mask on, and was comfortable in the water (read: not panicky), so was able to hold his head down longer than most. Basically, I had him working at the pool's edge, developing his hip snap. He got a little too far away from the pool edge, and lo and behold, came up with a handroll. I had to practically break his arms and reset the bones around the paddle--he just wanted to handroll all evening! I didn't ever think of handroll-first as a learning technique; maybe I should. It sure does seem like a good way to emphasize hip rotation, and de-emphasize paddle technique. IMHO, boat fit is the key, though, to any successful rolling regime. Shawn Jed Luby (or is that his real name?) wrote: > Just last week, I started to teach rolling first with hand paddles then >quickly moving to "hands-only" rolls. -- Shawn W. Baker 0 46°53'N © 2000 ____©/______ 114°06'W ~~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^\ ,/ /~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ baker_at_montana.com 0 http://www.geocities.com/shawnkayak/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 7/13/00 1:45:07 PM, MJAkayaker writes: << Did learning the hand roll first cure the pulling down problem when they tried rolling with the paddle or did they still have that problem when they restarted using the paddle?>> No, but they did feel a little more guilty for having pulled on the paddle after learning that they didn't even need the paddle to roll. I suspect (I pray) that over time they will merge the two roll techniques to arrive at my idea of perfect paddle roll form. << I have seen the hand-roll in the "Grace Under Pressure" video. It is a C-to-C roll but I am not sure what you mean by a two-handed C-to-C. Is this different from what is in the "Grace Under Pressure" video (if you have seen the video)? >> Only slightly, the one I teach sweeps down with the left hand (for a right hand roll) as the right arm reaches out away from the boat. At maximum extension, the hip snap starts, the hip snap is followed with a layback. This seems to be easier for people who are not extremely flexible. << Are you teaching in a pool? In a pool I was not bothered with trying and missing rolls. When I was being taught in salt-water I liked it a lot better when the instructors did things in real small steps such that I never spent much time flailing away under water. Does the hand-roll first method result in more initial "failures" than the "holding hand-supporting paddle at 90 deg -guide paddle sweep" progression that many instructors use? Are you using some kind of progression in teaching the hand roll?>> I teach in fresh / flat water. Students are encouraged to wear face masks or goggles and nose plugs. I actual find I can teach, using the helping hands, without initial failure. As the student learns to lift themselves higher, I move my helping hands closer to the water surface and further away from the paddler. This way the difficulty factor is slowly increased as they approach proper form. I teach via a retro-progression, meaning I teach the last step first, then the second to last step and on and on. We start with hip flicks with me supporting their elbows, then they learn to extend their arms resting their fingers on my hand. Then I put hand paddles on them and I support them again while they get comfortable with the hand paddles. After several iterations I remove my hands (without their knowing) and they perform their first unassisted hand paddle roll. After much cheering and congratulations we remove one of the hand paddles. This is where they experience their first failure if their technique slips. So they try again and are successful as long as technique is solid. Then we remove the other hand paddle and I spot their hand with my fingers. If they push too hard their hand falls off my fingers. At some point when I expect success I reduce my support until they are confident they can do it without me. Now I spot from the end of the boat and only help if they blow the roll. But I don't pull them all the way up, they must hipsnap to get up. I just assist with the turning of the boat but not enough to bring them fully upright. Once they can C to C handroll, I can put a paddle in their hands and show them how to sweep, maintaining that feeling of pulling yourself to the surface. If they hipsnap just like they learned for the hand roll all is good and they then have a C to C roll. For the record, I much prefer the Screw Roll. I find it faster and more powerful. But the C to C helps people learn to pull themselves up rather than pull down on the paddle during the sweep. My Screw Roll became much more powerful once I learned to approach it from a C to C type of mentality. Forgive me if this is old hat to the veterans out there, but since I never had any instruction (other than reading) in rolling, I'm guess I'm reinventing the wheel. My recent success with this technique may just be a fluke, but it is a major revelation to me and my success rate teaching the screw roll has been low recently. Jed (still not gonna reveal my real name) Luby Goffstown, NH *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 7/13/00 6:57:51 PM, uhoeger_at_is.dal.ca writes: << What boats did you use? Seakayaks or WW boats? >> Sorry I should have pointed that out that these are WW boats that I used. Since I am a seakayaker first and always, I withheld my own claim to a hand roll untill I could roll my boat, a NDK Explorer, loaded for day trips. But even that happened the next day. << What I understand is that learning rolling without a paddle will focus you on learning the proper "body" technique. But learning to handroll a seakayak in a single session without previous experience sounds really remarkable. >> Exactly right! This proper body position, applied to a screw roll, yields a very powerful and reliable roll. Again, I should have been more clear that these were WW boats. Sorry for the confusion. Jed *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I was doing some white water training recently with a non indexed paddle. I found by sliding my right hand up to the blade, I could determine the orientation of the paddle and roll without problem. Sometimes I came up with the back of the paddle but I didn't notice any difference. cya *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
When I was first trying to learn the roll I was frustrated by my inability to see what was going on in the pool sessions. A fellow I worked with suggested first practicing the moves in a doorway with a broom and that made all the difference; at the next pool session I rolled up on the first try. Jeff *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Jed (Who will never divulge his real name) Luby ...Is it Rumplestiltskin? BV *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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