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From: Kevin Whilden <kevin_at_yourplanetearth.org>
subject: [Paddlewise] handsroll vs paddle roll
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 21:58:31 -0700
 From a pure thought experiment standpoint, it seems to me that there is a 
simple explanation why some people can learn the hands roll much easier 
than they learn the paddle roll.

With a handsroll, you have to flail away with the arms to set up the 
hipsnap. With a paddle roll, if you flail with the paddle,  the paddle will 
dive and the hipsnap will fail.  This is an essential difference. Some 
people just cannot understand that rolling requires almost zero upper body 
strength. There are very few instances in life where upper body strength is 
a distinct disadvantage. However, eskimo rolling is one of them. Apply too 
much force on the paddle during the sweep, and it dives, and no amount of 
hipsnap can overcome that. It's that simple.

Handsrolling is the exact opposite. The more force you can apply with your 
arms, the less strong your hipsnap needs to be, and the more likely you are 
to make a successful roll. You still need to have a strong hipsnap, but 
perhaps some people are more receptive to doing a strong hipsnap AFTER they 
have done a strong upper body contraction. Regardless, the natural tendency 
to flail away with your arms is an advantage.

I think the essence of the conundrum here is that human beings are used to 
using their arms to accomplish physical tasks. We are not used to using 
lateral hip rotation to accomplish anything physical. Perhaps salsa dancing 
uses this motion, but that is not a physical task to overcome and conquer. 
I can't think of any other sport or physical endeavor that requires the 
same lateral rotational motion as hipsnapping in kayaking. Can you?

Kevin



especially for upper-body centered males. Wailing away with the arms is 
something everyone understands, but rotating the lower body sideways and 
independent of the upper body is something nobody does on a regular basis 
(except kayakers).

Kevin Whilden
Your Planet Earth
http://www.yourplanetearth.org
(206) 788-0281 (ph)
(206) 788-0284 (f)


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From: Wayne Smith <wsmith16_at_snet.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] handsroll vs paddle roll
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 06:27:05 -0400
Kevin Whilden wrote:

> I can't think of any other sport or physical endeavor that requires the
> same lateral rotational motion as hipsnapping in kayaking. Can you?
>

Yes, racquetball. The most powerful hitters in the game get their power from
striding into their shot, and rotating their torsos. The upper body only
provides the whip action at the end of the swing that makes contact. For that
matter, hitting a baseball is mostly a matter of body rotation as well --- watch
Griffey Jr. hit sometime ---- his swing starts in his feet.

I've found that my backhand shot in r-ball and my sweep roll feel very similar
in terms of what my lower body does.


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From: <LedJube_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] handsroll vs paddle roll
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 07:27:59 EDT
In a message dated 7/14/00 5:14:01 AM, kevin_at_yourplanetearth.org writes:

<< (snip) We are not used to using  lateral hip rotation to accomplish 
anything physical. (snip) I can't think of any other sport or physical 
endeavor that requires the 
same lateral rotational motion as hipsnapping in kayaking. Can you? >>

    Agreed. We tend to move through the world in two dimensions. Rock 
climbing, gymnastics and dancing are the only two examples (nod to Mel) that 
I can think of that use the hips in lateral movement.  While the arms and 
hands can help some hand rolls, the majority, I believe are best served with 
a lifting of the body that sets up or rather winds up the hip snap. The hands 
and arms then serve to maximize the upper body's resistance to movement while 
the boat is pulled beneath the body with the hips. (my limited experience 
only).

Jed


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From: Shawn W. Baker <baker_at_montana.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] handsroll vs paddle roll
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 11:39:18 -0600
I haven't yet filmed myself, but I'd like to.  Rather, I'd like to have
some film of myself paddling; preferably filmed by someone other than
myself!

Shawn


Wayne wrote:
>Could be that I learn by "feel", and it's just that it feels the same. I'd like to
>have someone videotape me doing about 10 or 12 different rolls, so I can actually
>see how I do them. Could be interesting. Anyone here ever do that?

-- 
Shawn W. Baker          0                                    46°53'N
© 2000            ____©/______                              114°06'W
~~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^\  ,/      /~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^
baker_at_montana.com    0        http://www.geocities.com/shawnkayak/

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