Mike: I, for one, would be interested in hearing why you chose the Viviane, and what you think of it compared to the hard chined Caribou. Josh At 19:06 30/06/00 , you wrote: >There was a thread a while back about what names we gave our boats. At >the time I didn't post because my boat didn't have a name. I either >called it "the Caribou" or "my Caribou." I felt that anything that was >that much a part of my life deserved a name, but I didn't have one that >fit. I still haven't named my Caribou, but I have come up with a name >for my new boat (due to be delivered soon!) that I am buying. The new >boat is a Viviane from Kajak Sport of Finland. As the boat is Finnish I >figured that the name should be as well. > So I borrowed the last line from a beautiful post by Melissa. >(Don't worry Melissa, I am keeping the Caribou. The Viviane is for >carrying loads and covering miles.) My new bat will be named "Meri >Kutsuu" which is Finnish for "The Sea Beckons." > Now, if anyone could give me the Gaelic or Inuit phrase for "Little >Sister" I would have a name for my Caribou as well! (Gaelic for my >heritage, Inuit for the design heritage of the Caribou.) > > >Mike >-- > Paddling along through fog so thick that only one's thoughts are >visible, your reverie is abruptly shattered by the ancient cry of a >great >blue heron as she lifts uncertainly from the brilliant blue of a >mussel-shell beach witnessed only by the brooding, wet spruce....your >passage home seems as much back through time as it does through space. >Mark H Hunt > > >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not >to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission >Submissions: paddlewise_at_lists.intelenet.net >Subscriptions: paddlewise-request_at_lists.intelenet.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** ============================================================================== Dr. Joshua Teitelbaum, Research Fellow Tel: [972] 3-640-6448 Moshe Dayan Center for Middle Eastern and Fax: [972] 3-641-5802 African Studies Tel Aviv University Ramat Aviv, Tel Aviv 69978 Israel E-mail:teitelba_at_ccsg.tau.ac.il www.dayan.org ============================================================================== *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Joshua Teitelbaum wrote: > Mike: > > I, for one, would be interested in hearing why you chose the Viviane, and > what you think of it compared to the hard chined Caribou. > > Josh Hi Josh. First off, please remember that I am pretty much a beginner here myself. Compared to most of the regular posters here I am a rank amateur. All opinions (most of the post is opinion) are based on my limited experience. But they are my opinions and I cherish them, until I find a newer, better opinion! Like any rational person I am always looking for a better opinion. Last fall I started a search for a new boat. At the time I said that I wanted something faster than my Caribou, which wasn't completely true. As Matt Broze pointed out to me, the Caribou gives up little in the way of speed versus effort until about 4.5 knots. Most of the time the group I paddle with is at 3 knots or less, and I tend to be towards the front of the group. (This is an odd experience for me, I am used to riding sweep so I can keep track of my daughter.) The main reasons that I wanted a second boat were more cargo space than the Caribou has and I was beginning to be bothered by the weathercocking problem that the non skegged version of the Caribou has. I had "corrected" the problem by adding weight in the stern hatch, but that causes a new set of problems. This spring I took a class with a Vermont based company called Tidelines that taught me a more proper forward stroke that almost completely eliminated the weathercocking problem. Technique wins out over hardware again! But I still wanted more volume, the Caribou is a low volume design. When I started my search my heart was pretty much set on the Current Designs Extreme, I had been lusting after that boat from the day they introduced it. Then Sea Kayak magazine did a review of the Viviane. I had seen the flyer for it, my favorite kayak shop (The Country Canoeist, in Dunbarton NH) carries Kajak Sport. But I hadn't really looked at one. In a pretty much side by side comparison (I had to drive 30 miles between boats) I checked out the Extreme and the Viviane. I found the Viviane to have a little more initial stability than the Extreme, about the same as the Caribou. In speed and tracking the Extreme and Viviane are about the same, I would say that the Viviane is a little faster if you have the power for it. But the Viviane seemed to accelerate quicker. This is subjective on my part, I did not time myself over a set course. What sold me on the Viviane was the construction, it was built with seams taped inside and out, something you have to pay extra for in most North American boats, and had Kevlar in high wear areas. They also showed thought in small areas, such as the fact that the sliders for the foot pedals use a captive screw, there are no screw heads sticking out of the hull. And I like the foot pedals. The small flat bar that Current Designs (and most other manufacturers) uses as a foot peg tends to cramp my left foot. The Kajak Sport pedal supports a much larger area of your foot, eliminating pressure points. But you can put Kajak Sports pedals on other boats, so that is not a sticking pint. Comparing the Viviane to the Caribou is a bit harder. I have only demoed the Viviane so far, I will be taking delivery of mine soon. In stability I would say that they are about equal, but different. If you lean the two of them slowly they feel about the same, with the Caribou having a bit more secondary stability. Both boats with no gear aboard. If you heel the boat fast by rocking it with your hips, and keep it up and see just how far you can put it over without using the paddle to brace, the hard chines of the Caribou grab and present more rotational resistance. They also get loud fast, the flat hull sections tend to slap the water. With either boat I can get in over the cockpit coming while doing this, and feel comfortable, so they are close. The tracking of the Viviane is stiffer than the Caribou, but at more than a foot longer I expected that. The Viviane is more of a pack it with a weeks worth of gear and cover a lot of miles boat, the Caribou is a day tripper that can do weekends if you want to. People from a backpacking background will disagree with me on this, they find the Caribou to be quite spacious. I will not be selling my Caribou, it is a "little" sports car for the fun trips, where you want quick acceleration and good turning. The Viviane is a distance cruiser that can cover the miles in comfort. Comparing the two is like comparing a Porsche to a Caddilac. Which is better? It depends on what you want to do. Mike -- Paddling along through fog so thick that only one's thoughts are visible, your reverie is abruptly shattered by the ancient cry of a great blue heron as she lifts uncertainly from the brilliant blue of a mussel-shell beach witnessed only by the brooding, wet spruce....your passage home seems as much back through time as it does through space. Mark H Hunt *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"This spring I took a class with a Vermont based company called Tidelines that taught me a more proper forward stroke that almost completely eliminated the weathercocking problem. Technique wins out over hardware again!" Any tips to pass on here, Mike? PT. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Peter, Mark. Oh boy, Mike opens mouth and starts it again! The course I took was a BCU 2 star class, I was being taught the "proper" forward stroke as defined by the BCU. Jamie Mittendorf, one of our instructors, stated that he could hold a three WEEK class on the forward stroke alone! That wasn't as a boast, he stated that the forward stroke was something that you constantly work on. I know that at one point we were doing an assisted tow (assuming that I was an incapacitated paddler), and Jamie and one of the students were towing the two of us at the same brisk pace that we had started the day at for over a mile. Through the whole thing his form was perfect. The stroke is standard, in at the toes out with snap at the hips. Torso rotation is a must. Comfort in keeping the boat healed over is a major help. There does seem to be a small degree of sweep in the stroke, and I did vary that sweep as needed, but overall it just felt that the boat suddenly started to ignore the wind. I will admit that I haven't had the boat out in winds much over 15 knots since, but I used to have major problems with fifteen knots if the boat was unloaded. I don't know how this would apply to Greenland style paddling as I have not yet tried that technique. I am sure that there are many on this list who can describe the "proper" forward stroke better than I can. And I would love to hear from them myself. Kayaking is a sport where you can continue to learn new things for as long as you desire to learn. Mike -- Paddling along through fog so thick that only one's thoughts are visible, your reverie is abruptly shattered by the ancient cry of a great blue heron as she lifts uncertainly from the brilliant blue of a mussel-shell beach witnessed only by the brooding, wet spruce....your passage home seems as much back through time as it does through space. Mark H Hunt *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Thanks for your reply. I asked the question as I was wondering as to your experience in using an improved forward stroke to correct weatherhelm, without rudders, skegs, or sliding seats. I took the rudder off my boat for a 6 month period and attempted to learn better stroke style. At one time, I was paddling just outside a surf break zone with an increasing offshore wind, later reported to be 28 knots. It felt strong, and was coming from beam on. I was staying as far inshore as possible to get as much shelter from the land as possible, which meant that the occasional larger set of swells was peaking about where I was. I was edging the boat into the wind, towards the shore, to correct weathercocking. A larger swell arrived, I kept edging, the boat leaned over downwave, and over I went, capsized. I blew a roll, wet exited, and re-entered and rolled. The wind continued to increase, and I turned around and went back. No doubt different boats are better in different conditions, but I have re-installed the rudder, and find paddling easier with it. The effort put into the forward stroke is straight ahead, and less effort is wasted keeping the boat pointed in the right direction. It's probably good to be able to do without a rudder, but energy efficient to use it for the long haul. The best round up of stroke variations to correct weathercocking I have found is on the Mariner website: http://www.marinerkayaks.com (thanks Matt). But even using every trick on this site, energy is still going into course correction, at the expense of forward motion. Paddling and learning... Peter Treby 37* 42' S 145* 08' E *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hey, Josh, if you liked the Skerray a little and the Romany a lot, you ought to try the classic VCP playboat, the Pintail. Or the Anas Acuta, the hard chined Greenland-style boat from which the Pintail derived. Pintails are wonderful boats --- quick, but not racers, okay in surf with the skeg, track pretty well, especially with the skeg, and are really just fun, adaptable pleasant --- and heavy --- British Heavies. I liked the Romany a lot, but chose the Pintail for a lot of good reasons. Have never regretted it! Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mike: Thanks for sharing your thoughts and considerations. We are all entirely subjective, but even so it is extremely helpful to learn from the experience of others, no matter what their level is. >When I started my search my heart was pretty much set on the Current Designs >Extreme, I had been lusting after that boat from the day they introduced it. As for "lusting" after boats, I know what you mean. Currently I am consumed with multiple lust: At the height of my lust list is the Feathercraft Khatsalano (it would be my luck that this is a very -- if not the most -- expensive boat on market). IMHO, this is the most beautiful of boats, and if I can't justify getting it to paddle, maybe I can justify getting it as a piece of art! I can imagine hanging it from the living room ceiling of our apartment.... Best, Josh At 17:55 02/07/00 , you wrote: > >Hi Josh. > First off, please remember that I am pretty much a beginner here myself. >Compared to most of the regular posters here I am a rank amateur. All opinions >(most of the post is opinion) are based on my limited experience. ============================================================================== Dr. Joshua Teitelbaum, Research Fellow Tel: [972] 3-640-6448 Moshe Dayan Center for Middle Eastern and Fax: [972] 3-641-5802 African Studies Tel Aviv University Ramat Aviv, Tel Aviv 69978 Israel E-mail:teitelba_at_ccsg.tau.ac.il www.dayan.org ============================================================================== *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dr. Josh: I share your desires; I mean lusts. Actually for both boats you mention; the Extreme, KhatsalonoS plus a Mariner II or Romany Explorer or _______. The sound of a fiberglass hull scraping on sand sends chills of joy through my entire being!! How did we end up pursuing such lusts? Wants and Desires that have become such DRIVING NEEDS! The need for new equipment; paddling time; and increased skills! Addicted! How did it happen to you! For me the upward spiral to addiction all started while living in Florida and deciding that there just wasn't much to do for an outdoor oriented person such as myself. To hot, to may bugs and not enough dry land to hike. Certainly nothing to climb. I had a top end Touring bike that I had been putting about 15-20 miles on each morning to stay in shape. One morning I was run off the road by a school bus, almost smacked by a lady running a stop sign and then another person made a left turn into my path. She was driving a convertible with the top down and given my ex-Army yell I think it scared her more than I. The bike had to go or I knew I was going to die at the hands of a Florida Q-Tip (blue hair or elderly driver depending on how politically correct you wish to be and they are easily identified by two hands on the steering wheel and a small puff of white hair barely visible over the seat) A friend suggested Sea Kayaking, which I knew nothing about. I found a shop and stopped in. There were all kinds of boats. Plastic, fiberglass and WOW skin on frame! The beauty! The gadgets! I had gone back to school and couldn't afford any of them. Oh well, another dead end. I asked this guy at the shop if he knew anyone who would be interested in buying a high end touring bike. He said he was! An idea took hold and I told him I would be back. I ran home grabbed the bike and back to the shop. "Here, keep it for a while and if you like it - Make Me An Offer!" He did: "I'll trade you a kayak for your bike." A new Prijon Seayak! Done deal! Minor problem: No paddle, skirt or PFD! He was nice enough to loan me a paddle with blades the size of a grain shovel and an old worn skirt and a faded, but functional PFD. Books, magazines, equipment and email lists! I just took the 1.2 steps to addiction and can't stop! Brace yourself!!!! Dear Paddling Friends: Help Josh and I overcome this addiction! Satisfy our lusts! Make two guys at far ends of the world the most satisfied sea kayakers known to man and God! Give us both our boats of desire! You can send mine to: Remember - I can't hold my breath too long while learning to roll. Don't make us turn blue waiting for our new boats! If you can't give us our own then lend us yours for a while. Share the wealth! Then and only then will our desires shift to something our suffering families can relate to! Golf???????????????? Your Sea Kayak Addicted Friend: Fred Thomas California Kayaking *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Friends: Fred's post describes my craziness as well. It's the freedom of the thing. Being outside, the open space, the sea, and the boats are indeed beautiful. And there is the simplicity of motion without motors. Perhaps it is a midlife thing too (I'm 42). I've spent most of my life in academia, spent an awful long time working towards personal and career goals, moved to another country (I'm SF Bay Area born and raised, and have lived in Israel for nearly 19 years). But I grew up near the Pacific Ocean, and learned to SCUBA dive in high school (Ravenswood High School, East Palo Alto). I saw sea kayaking for the first time in Seattle while on a sabbatical at the University of Washington. I was too caught up in my work to do anything about it, and even looked for it here when I returned. But last year, I saw an ad for Terra Santa Kayak Expeditions, and realized it was, thank God, here in Israel finally. I joined up and have been kayaking at least once a week since then. My wife Jacqueline and I are equal partners in our enthusiasm and learning, and I have no trouble admitting (I'm proud, actually), that she is a better kayaker than I. She is much faster, and I think I need to work on my forward stroke! I enjoy the companionship of kayaking friends, and I particularly enjoy seeing my skills improve. It is like skiing in this respect. Josh (who has to get off in order to prepare for his trip!) At 19:19 03/07/00 , Fred wrote: > > Dr. Josh: > > I share your desires; I mean lusts. Actually for both boats you mention; the > Extreme, KhatsalonoS plus a Mariner II or Romany Explorer or _______. The > sound of a fiberglass hull scraping on sand sends chills of joy through my > entire being!! How did we end up pursuing such lusts? Wants and Desires > that have become such DRIVING NEEDS! The need for new equipment; paddling > time; and increased skills! Addicted! How did it happen to you! ============================================================================== Dr. Joshua Teitelbaum, Research Fellow Tel: [972] 3-640-6448 Moshe Dayan Center for Middle Eastern and Fax: [972] 3-641-5802 African Studies Tel Aviv University Ramat Aviv, Tel Aviv 69978 Israel E-mail:teitelba_at_ccsg.tau.ac.il www.dayan.org ============================================================================== *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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