Mike wrote: >>Yeah, but when my tires quit, they had each been pounded with one quarter the weight of my car for 65,000 km over seven years at 100 kph. They hadn't failed; I just didn't trust the amount of tread left. I think the two or three year life expectancy of hatch covers is pathetic. I can't imagine why they can't get a better material.<< According to some 303 literature I once had, tires that are used last far longer against drying out and checking than those that aren't used (even if both are equally exposed to the sun). If I remember correctly it had something to do with keeping the material that gives it flexibility equally distributed throughout the rubber. That's why spare tires mounted in a sun exposed location usually have a cover on them. Maybe if you used the hatches more and rolled them around with a stick or played Frisbee with them they would stay young longer. Yeah, why haven't the owners been giving them their needed exercise. ;-) Around here (WA) VCP hatches usually have about a 7 year life. I suspect the reason is there is lot less sunshine here than in most places. As for the VCP lid that only lasted a couple of years (and was purchased at a NW store) I suspect it had sat on the shelf for several years of its life and wasn't allowed to exercise. Maybe VCP should put a "purchase by" date on them like food and batteries. I don't know why VCP hatches don't last longer but I suspect it might be that the rubber is actually a foam so the air in it will allow it to float (even with the stainless steel ring around it. (BTW Doug--putting a little bend in the steel ring right next to the white clip attachment will make the clip work again.) A solid rubber cover might last longer but if it ends up at the bottom of the ocean it will still mean I have to keep a good stock of spares on hand in the store, which reminds me, I need to order some more lids as I'm again down to stripping them off complete hatches to supply folks who need one in a hurry. I guess if you want to stay flexible you have to exercise, just like a VCP hatch. Since 303 and Armorall are supposed to feed the rubber (back its lost plasticizers) it would make sense to use these products on both surfaces of the hatch rather than just the one exposed to the sun as several posters seemed to be saying they did (and then writing about the insides cracking. Upon reading of the short life among those who were using 303 I had to wonder if maybe 303 isn't the best thing for a VCP hatch. Anyone out there use 303 on both sides and have a 3 year or less life on a VCP lid? Last year I replaced the lid on a 12 year old Mariner II demo I had. It spent most of its life in the Northwest and indoors in unheated spaces but never did use any protectant on it. Your mileage may vary (but I sure wish I knew why). Instead of complaining about the high price someone should look at this as a business opportunity. Check if the patent has expired and if so look into making a better replacement lid that fits the VCP rims and sell it a lot cheaper (since they don't have to be imported). There does seem to be quite a demand for 7.5" VCP lids right now. The oval ones are just starting to reach the end of there lives so not much demand here yet for those. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt Broze wrote: > I don't know why VCP hatches don't last longer but I suspect it might be > that the rubber is actually a foam so the air in it will allow it to float > (even with the stainless steel ring around it. (BTW Doug--putting a little > bend in the steel ring right next to the white clip attachment will make the > clip work again.) A solid rubber cover might last longer but if it ends up > at the bottom of the ocean SNIPPED > Upon reading of the short life among those who were using 303 I had to > wonder if maybe 303 isn't the best thing for a VCP hatch. Anyone out there > use 303 on both sides and have a 3 year or less life on a VCP lid? I have an hypothesis on why the underside, in defiance of the logic that the upperside would sustain the most exposure and UV damage, is reported to be the side with the greatest tendency to show cracks according to paddlers reporting on this issue. It has to do with the nature of the flexing of the lid and how the two different planes (topside and bottom side) are affected by the action of placing the lid over the hatch hole. The way the hatch is placed over the hole goes something like this. You first slip the lid's rim over a portion of the hole's lip, say a third or so of the circumferance of the lid. Next, and this is where the deterioration effect may lie, you bend the rest of the lid upward to get it over the rest of the hole's lip before than pushing the lid down. Two different planes are involved here, the bottom and top plane. If the lid is a foam as Matt believes it is (good supposition since the lid will float) then the lid basically has two hardened film surfaces with aerated material in between (in a sense it resembles the structure of the material in a cardboard box, i.e. hardened surfaces with a corrugated core). As you go through the action of flexing the lid to fit around the hole's lip, the lifting of one end of the lid puts greater splitting stresses on the underside surface than on the upperside surface. The underside surface is being stretched and bent with a force tending to part its material, whereas the upper surface is being bent inward. This latter crimping action of the upperside will eventually do in its surface but not as fast as the splitting action that the underside is going through. So that is why you may tend to see more cracking on the underside than on the upperside as people have been reporting. It is probably not related to UV damage but to the stresses on the material. You can test this hypothesis (which I don't feel like doing right now; remember it ain't my problem: I don't have no stinking hatches :-)) by cutting off the lid of a cardboard box and cutting a circular piece about the diameter of a hatch. Mark one side with a felt pen "T" for top (i.e. don't use a sharpened pencil which will slightly score the surface). Now start bending the cardboard circular piece the way you would for getting a hatch on and off, i.e. lifting repeatedly about one half or one third of the side marked "T". You will likely start seeing the non "T" side developing cracks. The cardboard test is a bit unfair in that the corrugation material inbetween is corrugated in a parallel pattern whereas the aerated middle material of the Valley hatch is unidirectional with no set pattern. Whether this hypothesis holds true or not there is a bigger safety issue and it is this: --Valley hatches are on fiberglass boats, mainly if not exclusively, and cover hatch holes of glassed in watertight compartments. --Paddlers of such better kayaks, in general, are not so inclined to use air flotation in those compartments because of the pretty solid bulkheads backing them. --No where is it written in company literature that comes with such kayaks (am I mistakened on this?) that the hatches are susceptible to cracking over x years of use and should be regularly checked. --Many paddlers of such kayaks are non-suspecting (until this discussion on Paddlewise has helped draw attention to it) of the potential problem. So there are some paddlers out there who may have a serious breach of their watertight compartments were the hatches to fail in increments or catastrophically. This suggests that it is worthwhile reminding people who you see with such hatches to check them out. That is the nice thing about PaddleWise: it acts as wide network to help individuals see that something that is happening to them and their boats may not be an aberration. Also discussion may even lead to some solutions suggested by others on the listserve. We saw this earlier with VHF radios and relative waterproofness; the same with GPS is very good discussions and give and take. Lots of other areas have been covered wisely here as well. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
A spare front hatch cover for my VCP which I had in humidity controlled storage was cracked, ruined after two years. No sun, no salt, no crimping. Joe Sanford *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Matt and All, Around here (WA) VCP hatches usually have about a 7 > year life. I suspect the reason is there is lot less sunshine here than in > most places. As for the VCP lid that only lasted a couple of > years (and was > purchased at a NW store) I suspect it had sat on the shelf for > several years > of its life and wasn't allowed to exercise. Maybe VCP should put > a "purchase > by" date on them like food and batteries. If you are referring to the hatch cover that was purchased at PWS I seriously doubt that it had been in stock for several months let alone several years. PWS uses these hatches on some of their boats and turn over is pretty fast. When I was purchasing for them my goal was to have inventory turn over, not mold over. Cheers, -- Rob Cookson "I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the Atmosphere." Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Abigail Adams, February 22, 1787. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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