I got this heads-up from a fellow PaddleWiser: ------------- Hey, Ralph -- did you see this? http://www.paddling.net/sameboat/ ------------- Basically it is an article made up of two parts. The first part is of boorish behavior by a bunch of kayakers who pull up on to a dock on a private island in broad daylight and then proceed to defecate, pee, crawl all over the place. The second part has to do with the Commando Camping section of the Camping section of my book in which I go through the necessity of sometimes having to commando camp (I believe, BTW, that I coined the phrase...not the practice as I know kayakers and long range bicyclists have done this for just about forever) and suggesting ways of doing so that are non-disruptive to the property and privacy of the location. The author of the article takes me to task for what I wrote. While like any good author she does pitch her quotes from my book to prove her point, they are not out of context although parts are left out that have more provisos than I guess she could get into her column. My problem with her column is a question of balance. While it makes for a good column for her to put the two parts of the article together (the guys trashing the island and my suggestions for non-obtrusive commando camping when you need to camp on private property or not sleep that night at all, I believe it lacks a perception of degrees and a sense of balance. One form of behavior is offensive and disrespectful, the other not offensive and disrespectful. Anyway, this may be a good place to discuss the parameters of behavior of kayakers. I would like your take on this in PaddleWise. I think there are degrees of behavior. My advice of the need of commando camping was toward being unobtrusive and only when you have little choice in a long-range paddling situation. BTW, on the question of asking permission, I made a distinction in the book between asking permission to camp of a property owner in a remote area (my suggestion is always ask in such a situation) and in a populated area (my suggestion is not ask). I was thinking of vacation home people mainly in the latter. A farmer in a remote place will almost aways say yes. A vacation home owner is more resentfully guarding of his property and will likely say no and call the sheriff or make a citizen's arrest. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
A fellow worker and my local Staten Island news paper made mention of several abandoned kayaks which were observed in the harbor near the Verazzano bridge around 6:00PM on July 4th. There were no other details. Does anyone know anything about this? Richard Smith *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Richard, How about sharing a bit more detail from the local paper, The Staten Island Advance I presume. I know nothing about this. The general advice this week on nyckayaker listserve by me and others was not to be kayaking that day as conditions were decidedly unsafe for a kayaker with all those large ships and motorboats in the harbor. The Downtown Boathouse closed down tight with the fence locked and a sturdy barrier put across the ramp leading down from the pier to the floating kayak dock. A few of us were watching the Tall Ship parade. Early on we saw an inflatable Stern kayak going down river prior to the parade. During the parade itself three kayakers came down from northern Manhattan (the Dyckman official kayak put-in). They came to the kayak dock, were told the place was closed, they jumped the barrier to use the portasan, then proceeded to eat lunch on the smaller of the two docks. I mentioned to them that they would be bucking a strong ebb current when they paddled back north to Dyckman St. They said they had no intention of paddling back right then but rather were going to hang around for the fireworks later and had sufficient lights for night paddling. I don't know who they were although I believe I may have seen them once before. Some abandoned kayaks are serious business. I am sending this all to nyckayaker listserve in case someone over there may shed some light on this. Sounds like shades of what Jack Martin was talking about on the Potomac this week with an abandoned kayak floating around. Could be that some kayaks were stolen. Or mischievist people floated away some kayaks they found. Or some kayakers did not secure their kayaks well enough at a landing site and these got washed away by some big boat wakes, a distinct possibility anywhere in the harbor and on the Hudson. ralph diaz Christine Allison wrote: > > A fellow worker and my local Staten Island news paper made mention of > several abandoned kayaks which were observed in the harbor near the > Verazzano bridge around 6:00PM on July 4th. There were no other details. > > Does anyone know anything about this? > > Richard Smith > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not > to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission > Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net > Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ralph writes, RE: the question of permission to camp on private property: <on the question of asking permission, I made a distinction in the book between asking permission to camp of a property owner in a remote area (my suggestion is always ask in such a situation) and in a populated area (my suggestion is not ask). > I'm not sure if , in his letter to PW, Ralph refers only to emergency camping, or what he calls "commando" camping, or to camping at all times. Either way, I'm inclined to think one should always ask if it's possible to ask. And I don't think non-emergency camping should be ever done on private property unless we've secured permission in advance (that is, if you can't reach the owners, just don't camp there). The more often we trespass (that's what it is, without permission) on someone's private space, the more resentment we stir up against all kayakers and other campers. That's true regardless of how good we are as stewards of the camping place while we're there. As for the question of camping behavior, I heartily endorse the concept of "leave no trace" camping, including the omission of all fires (except the very rare fire which might be needed to re-warm a hypothermic person **who could not be safely re-warmed by another technique**). Cleaning up any refuse we find at a campsite is also good environmental practice and good public relations. Bill Hansen Ithaca NY *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Bill Hansen wrote: > > Ralph writes, RE: the question of permission to camp on private property: > > <on the question of asking permission, I made a distinction in the > book between asking permission to camp of a property owner in a remote > area (my suggestion is always ask in such a situation) and in a > populated area (my suggestion is not ask). > > > I'm not sure if , in his letter to PW, Ralph refers only to emergency > camping, or what he calls "commando" camping, or to camping at all times. > Either way, I'm inclined to think one should always ask if it's possible to > ask. And I don't think non-emergency camping should be ever done on private > property unless we've secured permission in advance (that is, if you can't > reach the owners, just don't camp there). I was unabashedly referring to non-emergency camping as well as emergency. On long stretches of paddling waters, it really is hard to avoid camping on private property. My first choice is to find some railroad or utilities property such as we have along the Hudson River or a quiet sparsely visited corner of some parkland. While there is a Hudson River Watertrail, most people who have paddled its length have had to do some commando camping since the legal sites are not evenly spaced. It is hard to figure out places to seek permission. Again, using the Hudson as an example, you can plan to cover x miles in a day but nature may conspire against you so that you won't reach the intended spot in time where you may have gotten permission or is a legal camp site. The RR right of way often has little outcroppings of land where you can pull up safely. It is private property, i.e. railroad property, but you are not intruding on an individual property owner. Maybe my Jesuit-education induced splitting hairs is emerging. I am not sure St. Thomas Aquinas would agree, albeit he was the ultimate hair-spitter in his Summa Theologica. What I am driving at are balance and discretion. It is one thing to pull up to some individual's private property and camp on a person's lawn disrupting his/her life. It is another thing to find a corner of that person's property, out-of-sight and out-of-the-way and do minimal impact camping with no noise or disruptive intrusion. Obviously, first opt for RR or utilities property owned by a legal person as opposed to a real person or some corner of parkland. Then consider the non-intrusive "commando" camping. The whole point of using the term commando is to denote clearly that; like a commando you make your presence unknown while you are there and no trace of you remains after you leave. The term commando was picked with considerable thought. If one wants to emphasize the sneakiness of it that is fine. My point was the invisible presence a la commandos. I am just being realistic. If you do do successful commando camping, and I codify the approaches that assure that you can, then you are not disturbing anything and are not creating a bad image for sea kayakers. It isn't a matter of not getting caught. It is a matter of being so inconspicious that you won't. For example, on the question of an open fire, I came down hard on that in the commando camping part of the Camping chapter. No open fires. A self contained camping stove fire is another thing. Again, what I stated in the book got a lot of comment from real life people who either have done a lot of multi-day kayak camping or bicycling. Perhaps my mistake was in openly discussing commando camping and codifying it. But I felt a lot of people don't know about just how low-impact you can get in camping. My book has a lot of off-beat things to say. Some people get worked up like the author of that webzine piece I cite. Others take it in stride and are thankful. Take your pick. But I do welcome the discussion. BTW when I had 10 acres of property in the Catskills I never posted no traspessing signs etc. I felt that I did not really own the trees, rocks and earth in my deed but only a right to build on it. Obviously I did not want someone to build open fires and burn down the trees. But I had an open fireplace on a large flat boulder that people were welcome to use. During hunting season, I would occasionally see signs that some hunters had used the woodpile to build a warming fire. I was not worked up over this. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 11:23 AM 07/06/2000 -0700, ralph diaz wrote: >I was unabashedly referring to non-emergency camping as well as >emergency. >On long stretches of paddling waters, it really is hard to avoid camping >on private property. I've been an occassional commando camper while backpacking and bicycling. You learn some techniques that make it more-or-less OK, even if you are discovered. The no open fires rule is the best and most obvious. Nothing will get you thrown out faster than building a fire on someone else's place. Some young adults I ran into on one trip were shocked that I spent most nights at legal campgrounds. They economized by commandoing at every opportunity. In much of the Pacific Northwest, there are small towns strung out every 5-10 miles or even further apart. Every town has a cemetary. They would find some tree covered spot on the edge of the cemetary and camp nearly every night. A brother and sister, about 19 and 17, told me their technique. Early in the evening the young lady would approach a nice house with an empty water container. She would ask to fill the water -- she was never refused. Then she would ask if there were camping spots anywhere nearby. She said that over 50% of the time she would be offered a lawn, or in some cases a trailer or a room for free. My own technique was more mundane. Look for a place with either no fences, or untended fences. Camp out of sight of both houses and roads. Leave absolutely no trace. Sometimes there would be surprises -- like cows surrounding the tent in the morning, or a fellow who stopped on the road which we were sure we were out of sight of, and asking, "you fellows want a better place to camp than that?" After camping we would try to leave at or even before dawn. The only problem I've ever experienced was one incident commando camping at a closed National Forest campground on the Klamath River. (We were biking, not paddling.) There is nothing like getting to the only campground for 20 miles and finding it unexpectedly closed. We quietly crossed the barrier and set up camp out of sight. About 8 guys from a motorcycle gang got roughly the same idea about 2 hours later, but after racing their bikes around and smashing some tequila bottles they got bored and left, thank goodness. jerry. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 11:23 AM 7/6/00 -0700, ralph diaz wrote: >Bill Hansen wrote: >> >> I'm not sure if , in his letter to PW, Ralph refers only to emergency >> camping, or what he calls "commando" camping, or to camping at all times. >> Either way, I'm inclined to think one should always ask if it's possible to >> ask. And I don't think non-emergency camping should be ever done on private >> property unless we've secured permission in advance (that is, if you can't >> reach the owners, just don't camp there). > >I was unabashedly referring to non-emergency camping as well as >emergency. > >On long stretches of paddling waters, it really is hard to avoid camping >on private property. My first choice is to find some railroad or >utilities property such as we have along the Hudson River or a quiet >sparsely visited corner of some parkland. While there is a Hudson River >Watertrail, most people who have paddled its length have had to do some >commando camping since the legal sites are not evenly spaced. It is >hard to figure out places to seek permission. Again, using the Hudson In general, I'd have to say that "commando" camping isn't a good idea. That is, in general -- there may be some specific exceptions. I'm going to head a little off-topic here. Until the end of last month, I was the editor of "North Star -- The Magazine of the North Country Trail". In that position, I got to know some memorable characters. One guy, in particular is as serious a hiker as I've ever known -- he spends upwards of 200 days a year on some trail or other, to the tune of several thousand miles a year. He is, as far as I know, the only person to have end-to-ended all eight of the National Scenic Trails (I'm not absoulutely sure about that -- a while back he hadn't done the Natchez Trace, but it was on his list and he's had the time). In addition, he's done several transcontinental walks, and hiked many other trails. His opinion is that it's impossible to do most of the National Scenic Trails without "stealth" camping, which he had done a lot of. On some "trails" -- such as the American Discovery, especially in the midwest, although the North Country has some long dry stretches -- it can be hundreds of miles between places where there's places to legally camp. We're talking pretty stealthy, too -- get in late, unroll the bivy, no cooking in camp, and be on the road by dawn. He has been known to ask permission, but he's spent many a night in a cornfield without anyone being the wiser. But, that's a long way from trashing a posted area, such as was mentioned in the first part of the paddlers.net article. Speaking for myself, I generally prefer to plan boat camping trips in places where there is adequate public land to allow legal camping. But, as Ralph points out, it isn't always the case. For instance, I've given some though to end-to-ending the Mississippi (I don't know where I'd ever find the time, but it's a fun intellectual exercise to consider.) In a situation like that, there are going to be plenty of places where it's necessary to stop, but where there aren't adequate public lands to be able to do so. And, in many places, it may be impossible to find someone to ask. My first choice in such a situation would be to find someone to ask, if possible -- "Any place around here where I can camp for the night?" -- but if the area is so uninhabited that there's no one to ask, and there's no posting of property, I'd probably not worry too much about it. >"commando" camping. The whole point of using the term commando is to >denote clearly that; like a commando you make your presence unknown >while you are there and no trace of you remains after you leave. The >term commando was picked with considerable thought. If one wants to >emphasize the sneakiness of it that is fine. My point was the invisible >presence a la commandos. My friend uses the term "stealth camping", which I think I prefer. Commando implies some sort of assault. But, it's your book. >For example, on the question of an open fire, I came down hard on that >in the commando camping part of the Camping chapter. No open fires. A >self contained camping stove fire is another thing. Yeah, that has nothing to do with the concept. My hiking friend rarely even cooked in his overnight camp -- he felt there were better places. >bicycling. Perhaps my mistake was in openly discussing commando camping >and codifying it. But I felt a lot of people don't know about just how >low-impact you can get in camping. My book has a lot of off-beat things I know the feeling. As the North Star editor, I several times thought about doing an article about "stealth camping", but figureed that I'd get enough static about it that I really shouldn't. No guts, I guess. >BTW when I had 10 acres of property in the Catskills I never posted no >traspessing signs etc. I felt that I did not really own the trees, >rocks and earth in my deed but only a right to build on it. Obviously I There is much private property that is unposted for that reason. It's rarely advertised, since people don't want it known. Unfortunately, it's becoming less and less all the while -- and for obivous reasons. -- Wes *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This may not be an appealing subject, but someone aught to bring it up. Even if you have a cat hole trowel and dig a deep enough hole and cover your poop and paper up with dirt afterwards, you still leave what I'll call for lack of a better word a disturbance of the land. A much better idea is to carry some heavy duty trash bags, do your number in one, and CARRY THE WHOLE THING OUT with you until you can find a proper way to dispose of it. As for fires, you should not build a fire on someone's property even if you are sure it cannot be seen. Put yourself in the property owner's place. Would you like strangers building fires on your land? -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net]On Behalf Of Wes Boyd Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2000 2:22 PM To: ralph diaz Cc: paddlewise Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Sea Kayakers Behavior At 11:23 AM 7/6/00 -0700, ralph diaz wrote: >Bill Hansen wrote: >> >> I'm not sure if , in his letter to PW, Ralph refers only to emergency >> camping, or what he calls "commando" camping, or to camping at all times. >> Either way, I'm inclined to think one should always ask if it's possible to >> ask. And I don't think non-emergency camping should be ever done on private >> property unless we've secured permission in advance (that is, if you can't >> reach the owners, just don't camp there). > >I was unabashedly referring to non-emergency camping as well as >emergency. > >On long stretches of paddling waters, it really is hard to avoid camping >on private property. My first choice is to find some railroad or >utilities property such as we have along the Hudson River or a quiet >sparsely visited corner of some parkland. While there is a Hudson River >Watertrail, most people who have paddled its length have had to do some >commando camping since the legal sites are not evenly spaced. It is >hard to figure out places to seek permission. Again, using the Hudson In general, I'd have to say that "commando" camping isn't a good idea. That is, in general -- there may be some specific exceptions. I'm going to head a little off-topic here. Until the end of last month, I was the editor of "North Star -- The Magazine of the North Country Trail". In that position, I got to know some memorable characters. One guy, in particular is as serious a hiker as I've ever known -- he spends upwards of 200 days a year on some trail or other, to the tune of several thousand miles a year. He is, as far as I know, the only person to have end-to-ended all eight of the National Scenic Trails (I'm not absoulutely sure about that -- a while back he hadn't done the Natchez Trace, but it was on his list and he's had the time). In addition, he's done several transcontinental walks, and hiked many other trails. His opinion is that it's impossible to do most of the National Scenic Trails without "stealth" camping, which he had done a lot of. On some "trails" -- such as the American Discovery, especially in the midwest, although the North Country has some long dry stretches -- it can be hundreds of miles between places where there's places to legally camp. We're talking pretty stealthy, too -- get in late, unroll the bivy, no cooking in camp, and be on the road by dawn. He has been known to ask permission, but he's spent many a night in a cornfield without anyone being the wiser. But, that's a long way from trashing a posted area, such as was mentioned in the first part of the paddlers.net article. Speaking for myself, I generally prefer to plan boat camping trips in places where there is adequate public land to allow legal camping. But, as Ralph points out, it isn't always the case. For instance, I've given some though to end-to-ending the Mississippi (I don't know where I'd ever find the time, but it's a fun intellectual exercise to consider.) In a situation like that, there are going to be plenty of places where it's necessary to stop, but where there aren't adequate public lands to be able to do so. And, in many places, it may be impossible to find someone to ask. My first choice in such a situation would be to find someone to ask, if possible -- "Any place around here where I can camp for the night?" -- but if the area is so uninhabited that there's no one to ask, and there's no posting of property, I'd probably not worry too much about it. >"commando" camping. The whole point of using the term commando is to >denote clearly that; like a commando you make your presence unknown >while you are there and no trace of you remains after you leave. The >term commando was picked with considerable thought. If one wants to >emphasize the sneakiness of it that is fine. My point was the invisible >presence a la commandos. My friend uses the term "stealth camping", which I think I prefer. Commando implies some sort of assault. But, it's your book. >For example, on the question of an open fire, I came down hard on that >in the commando camping part of the Camping chapter. No open fires. A >self contained camping stove fire is another thing. Yeah, that has nothing to do with the concept. My hiking friend rarely even cooked in his overnight camp -- he felt there were better places. >bicycling. Perhaps my mistake was in openly discussing commando camping >and codifying it. But I felt a lot of people don't know about just how >low-impact you can get in camping. My book has a lot of off-beat things I know the feeling. As the North Star editor, I several times thought about doing an article about "stealth camping", but figureed that I'd get enough static about it that I really shouldn't. No guts, I guess. >BTW when I had 10 acres of property in the Catskills I never posted no >traspessing signs etc. I felt that I did not really own the trees, >rocks and earth in my deed but only a right to build on it. Obviously I There is much private property that is unposted for that reason. It's rarely advertised, since people don't want it known. Unfortunately, it's becoming less and less all the while -- and for obivous reasons. -- Wes *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
ralph diaz wrote: > Anyway, this may be a good place to discuss the parameters of behavior > of kayakers. I would like your take on this in PaddleWise. > > I think there are degrees of behavior. My advice of the need of > commando camping was toward being unobtrusive and only when you have > little choice in a long-range paddling situation. Well, I read her piece (http://www.paddling.net/sameboat/), and I have read Ralph's piece in his book about commando camping. If I were in a situation where I **had** to camp on private property, I'd ask, always, because only extreme fatigue or unsafe paddling conditions would cause me to bivouac on private land. And, I suspect there are few landowners who would deny me a safe harbour under those conditions. The boorish behaviour described in the article is a set piece for encouraging landowners to get their elected representatives to pass restrictive legislation on the use of riparian zones adjacent to streams and lakes. In Oregon, we have had a couple nasty fights over how the use of the "streambed" is regulated by law. Responsible paddlesport advocates (thank you, Steve and Cindy Scherrer of Alder Creek Kayak Supply) spent a lot of time and some of their money fending off restrictive legislation ... in exchange for educating the paddling public on good manners and presenting a good exterior to streamside landowners. Commando camping would not fit under that umbrella. In some parts of Washington (the San Juans, for example), shoreside landowners have had so many bad experiences with sea kayakers that they have put political pressure to work, restricting access to launch points, and in one case banding together to buy up the one primo beach on Shaw Island suitable for yak launching. (I should hasten to add this is not all the fault of sea kayakers. There is an "attitude" on the parts of many owners in the San Juans that sea kayakers are part of the "rabble." Can you say wealthy but not nice?) Using a private beach for illicit camping will only make this situation worse, and for that reason, I won't do it. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: Dave Kruger <dkruger_at_pacifier.com> > Using a private beach for illicit camping will only make this situation worse, > and for that reason, I won't do it. I second (or third) Dave and Bill's comments. If you only ask permission when you believe you will receive it and don't ask when you are pretty sure you aren't going to receive it, then the act of asking at all is meaningless. Folks' doors to their homes do not begin and end at a structure, imo (and also the opinion of their insurer and tax assessor). Neither should a kayaker's manners or respect for private property. Property owners have no way to determine who will leave no trace or will leave their trash and feces behind. How will it be determined that you were the group that left no trace or it was the group right behind you that decided not to ask and held a party in the same spot? Tamia Nelson makes a good point in her comment "If there's any better way to make enemies for paddlesport, I can't think of it." The law is almost always on the side of the property owner. If paddlers continue to disregard the laws, we will all pay the price. Regards, Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
A lot of good points on both sides of this subject have been made. One thing that I've gotten out of the discussion is that, like with so many other things, you need to carefully choose the time and place if you're going to attempt "commando camping". Trying to do it in high use, high profile areas (like the San Juan islands in Washington State) is probably not wise - both for you as an individual, and for the general reputation of paddlers, campers, hikers, bikers, and others who generally try to exercise no/low impact camping. In other places it's a lot more feasible. I don't think it's a black & white issue. Pick your spot, pick your time, and use some common sense. If you come visit us in SE Alaska you'll find that you can camp almost anywhere that you can find a flat enough (and dry enough!) spot for a tent - but just be aware that the local residents will _always_ know exactly where you're camped - and can exact a heavy toll for mistakes. Sometimes though - as in the recent BC wolf attack - they end up paying the price with _their_ lives. Dave Seng Juneau, Alaska *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: Seng, Dave <snipped> > If you come visit us in SE Alaska you'll find that you can camp almost > anywhere that you can find a flat enough (and dry enough!) spot for a tent - > but just be aware that the local residents will _always_ know exactly where > you're camped - and can exact a heavy toll for mistakes. Sometimes though - > as in the recent BC wolf attack - they end up paying the price with _their_ > lives. > as winter set in a few years ago, i went for a paddle at one of my regular sites... after awhile, i saw another guy.. wanting solitude, i tried to out run him.. but he was in better shape than me. so we met and that was the start of a friendship... he is from a Norwegian family. hats of hi to some dark-side paddlers. Today i discussed the BC wolf attack with an 80 yr young retired prof from MIT who also has as Norwegian heritage... he told me that when attacked, some hikers use their stick to club wolfs across the back (to break it) or hit them in the jaw. hopefully i wil be able to show Eric MC some remote locations this weekend. so, i see some wisdom in paddling gently and sleeping with a sturdy paddle. bye bye bliven *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 7/6/00 3:33:41 PM !!!First Boot!!!, rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com writes: << Again, using the Hudson as an example, you can plan to cover x miles in a day but nature may conspire against you so that you won't reach the intended spot in time where you may have gotten permission or is a legal camp site >> Would this be an example of poor planning? Simple Rule Number 3 Leave yourself an out, have a plan B. <> Would this transfer to theft? If you are really good at it and don't get caught, is it still wrong? Emergency/survival situations are exceptions to most rules IMLTHO, but poor planning on my part should not be reason to violate someone else's rights. It is the self determination aspect of Ralph's suggestion that concerns me. I determine whether or not to trespass. I am sure that Ralph is/was a conscientious Commando Camper, but I may not be and the next CC may be less fastidious than I. Simple Rule Number 2 If it isn't yours, don't touch it without asking permission first. Simple Rule Number 1 (for those of you that are counting) Consider the effect of your action on the surrounding community prior to committing the action. (Ripple Effect) Bruce McC WEO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I myself have participated in "Commando Camping" while biking a rather long rail-trail. We were in what I'd describe as "the boonies", no one in sight, hadn't seen an inhabited house for hours. At the end of the day when we had exhausted ourselves we pretty much pedaled until we found a suitable flat spot and crashed. The only impact was maybe a flat spot in the grass, no scat holes or trash left behind. We treated this camp spot better than if it were our own property. I certainly can't speak for all land owners, but I would like to think that as long as property is treated with respect and care, most owners wouldn't be upset by this occasional use. Heck if you take such care that they never become aware perhaps that's even better. Joe *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> ---------- > From: Seng, Dave[SMTP:Dave_Seng_at_health.state.ak.us] > Sent: 7/6/00 10:49 > To: paddlewise > Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Sea Kayakers Behavior > > you need to carefully choose the time and place if you're > going to attempt "commando camping". Trying to do it in high use, high > profile areas (like the San Juan islands in Washington State) is probably > not wise - > Dave drills it on this one. I'm a "reformed" commando camper. I learned my lesson when I couldn't get into a campsite in Washington State peninsula. I began driving around and found an old road littered with appliances and other forms of garbage. Darkness was approaching fast, and I didn't have time to be choosy, so I found a spot and crawled in the canopy of my pickup. Three hours later I awoke to the sounds of a megaphone and looked up to see a double-barreled shotgun pointing at me. The old road was being staked out by local police who were trying to nab the culprit littering the road. Unfortunately I was the victim of mistaken identity, but it was an experience I don't wish to repeat. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Terms like guerrilla camping and stealth camping are better. I hit on commando camping for its alliterative aspect. When the book first came out I ran into the editor of Messing About In Boats, Bob Hicks, whom I know from symposia and other venues. He said when he saw it he told his wife "Gee, and Ralph Diaz seemed like such a law-abiding individual." :-) As some one said here in such stealth camping you pick your time and place. I know of some not-so-stealthy examples. Years ago when I worked near the UN, my two mile walk to work each day took me through Central Park past Sheep's Meadow in the southwestern part of the park. One day I spotted a tent smack in the middle of Sheep's Meadow. Two park rangers were rapping on the aluminum frame to wake the guy up. The sun was bright that morning and I could see his silohuette clearly inside the tent; he seemed startled to be discovered. From his head scratching he seemed to be thinking to himself "this sure seemed to be a quiet meadow when I pitched my tent". :-) A similar thing happened to a friend when he paddled up the Hudson a decade ago. One night he found what seemed a quite spot where he pulled up about midnight. The next morning the local constable was rapping on his tent. Seems it was the town square!! (The constable was so intrigued by his kayak and kayaking trip that he bought him coffee and donuts.) I suppose this type of camping might be termed clown camping :-) ralph -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> BTW, on the question of asking permission, I made a distinction in the > book between asking permission to camp of a property owner in a remote > area (my suggestion is always ask in such a situation) and in a > populated area (my suggestion is not ask). I was thinking of vacation > home people mainly in the latter. A farmer in a remote place will > almost aways say yes. A vacation home owner is more resentfully > guarding of his property and will likely say no and call the sheriff or > make a citizen's arrest. I think this statement is pretty far afield from reality. In fact, I think it's total nonsense. I grew up in rural NC, lived for years on Martha's Vineyard in Mass (in a very wealthy area along the coastd), and now live in NY, but have vacation property in Maine. My Maine property is right along the coast, in Rockport, in an area where the MITA doesn't really have any good landings. For myself, I'm delighted to have kayakers land on my beach (which they do), and eat, hang out, whatever. I think most of the people along that coastline -- and this is a very wealthy coastline of "vacation homes" of great value -- would feel the same way. My experiences kayaking up and down this coast confirm this. People are delighted to see us, wave and beckon, and are very welcoming, even though they don't know I am really one of their neighbors. All they see is kayaks and people and they are warm and welcoming. In short, the "vacation home" owners I know are wonderfully welcoming people, and are receptive to kayakers (and other recreational users) along their beaches. I quite frankly think there is a prejudice against people who have "vacation homes" based on resentment and class-based anger, and I think it is totally unfounded and irrational. OTOH, I do agree that rural people are also often very welcoming. I've had plenty of experiences that back this up, all over the US. Here in Maine, the rural people I have met have been wonderfully welcoming, genuine, friendly and helpful. As for "commando camping" -- bad news. Bad news all around. If you can possibly find the owners, or residents, ask. I can tell you, as I indicated above, I am DELIGHTED to have paddlers come ashore on my property and camp, etc. But if I am around and available and they were to do so in a "commando" mode, without asking, I'd resent it and be pissed. All you have to do is show a little civility. All you have to do is show a little respect for the property owner. If you can't find it in you to do that, . . . well, maybe you're not welcome after all. And if enough jerks treat me and my land that way, well. . . maybe eventually no one will be welcome. So, my view: take a few minutes to scout around and find a way to politely ask. I really like the idea, mentioned earlier, that someone comes to the house and asks to fill a water container. Chances are anyone doing that at my "vacation house" will be offered a hot meal, a warm bed, and hot shower, a drive into town for any needed supplies, and general warmth and hospitality. Anyone sneaking around and thinking they are "commados" may be tolerated but will be resented and will in the end harm the situation for everyone. So. My two cents worth. Back to lurk mode. . . Mark Lane *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 7/6/00 9:14:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, sailboatrestorations_at_worldnet.att.net writes: << My Maine property is right along the coast, in Rockport, in an area where the MITA doesn't really have any good landings. For myself, I'm delighted to have kayakers land on my beach (which they do), and eat, hang out, whatever. I think most of the people along that coastline -- and this is a very wealthy coastline of "vacation homes" of great value -- would feel the same way. >> Mark, I'll be taking a trip to Maine later this month. Can you give me more specific information on how to get to your property? I would be interested in any tips from paddlewisers on locations to kayak, accomodations, or anything else people would recommend for a forthcoming trip to Maine and Nova Scotia. For a Bay of Fundy kayaking experience, is there any advantage to the New Brunswick side over the Nova Scotia side? We're wondering whether to drive around one way or take the ferry both ways. Any suggestions? We're going to start off with the L L Bean kayaking symposium. Who's been there? Any suggestions on how to get the most out of it? Thanks in advance, Hank Berger *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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