Roger wrote: >>I suppose the short answer about taking "sea touring kayaks" down rivers has to do with boat size relative to river size. A big boat (Eddyline Raven, 17 feet by 24") seemed to work fantastic on a big river (the Colorado flowing between 8 and 10,000 cfs). The long answer, which I won't go into here, has to do with the skills of the paddler. I suppose a highly skilled paddler could navigate a Yukon safely down a Class III flowing at only 800 cfs, but I wouldn't recommend it for most boaters and probably wouldn't want to try it myself. Other successes: I do have two friends who took Mariner Coasters (14 feet by 24", fiberglass sea touring "playboats"-- are you there Matt?) down a Class I-II stretch of the San Juan River in Utah that has a couple of fairly straightforward Class III drops. I'm not sure what the flow was, but they did say that it was "scrapey" in places on their week-long trip. The advantage over a WW boat is that they could carry camping gear more easily. The advantage over a raft should be obvious to anyone who has tried to paddle a rubber barge on flat water stretches. The long and short of it, I suppose, is that using touring kayaks in ww can be either stupendous or stupid, depending on the size of the kayak, the flow and character of the river, and the paddling skills of the paddler.<< Yeah I'm here Roger. Couldn't agree with the gist of your post more but have a few corrections to the details. Raven is 16' 8" by 22.5" not 17'x24" and the Coaster is 13' 5.25" by 23" not 14' x 24". Both are very maneuverable sea kayaks. I have been down tight class 2+ rivers in a Coaster and while it is possible it is not as much fun as in a WW kayak. You have to plan much further ahead and get most of the turn out of the way in advance before catching an eddy. For really big whitewater like the Colorado River though a reasonably maneuverable sea kayak has an advantage over a WW kayak both in punching through bigger stoppers (they are faster so carry more momentum through the wave) and in moving faster and straighter on the often long flat stretches between rapids. I once took a Mariner II (17-11 x 21.5) about 10 miles up and down the small narrow and logjam clogged Ozette River. I would have preferred to be in a Coaster rather than the Mariner II (or even a WW boat) but it was a spur of the moment kind of thing not something I planned to do (and it looked a lot shorter on the map than it was and the map doesn't tell you about the 20+ log jams either--I barely got back to the coast before dark). Warning: I don't recommend this river as logjams are dangerous (I tried to go down it at another time with a friend and we turned around after a mile because of the hazards of the logjams in the current). If you must maneuver quickly while dodging rocks you definitely want the WW kayak and nothing else will come close. If open canoes use the river a sea kayak should have no serious problems (except I would rather not scrape them down the shallow riffles at low water). Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt Broze wrote: > > ... > If you must maneuver quickly while dodging rocks you definitely want the WW > kayak and nothing else will come close. If open canoes use the river a sea > kayak should have no serious problems (except I would rather not scrape them > down the shallow riffles at low water). Wow. You are either kidding (and inadvertently left off the smiley face) or are living in the past when it comes to solo whitewater canoes. Do you really mean to say that if you can run a Class V, boulder-choked steep creek in an OC-1 (as is done quite frequently) then you should be able to do the same in a sea kayak? I don't think so. Highly rockered canoes that are 8 to 11 feet long have distinct handling advantages over sea kayaks in such circumstances. There has been considerable convergence between hull designs for whitewater kayaks and whitewater canoes in recent years (as was recently pointed out in an excellent article written by one of the designers on this list). The same cannot be said for sea kayaks. :-) Dan Hagen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I wrote: > > ... > If you must maneuver quickly while dodging rocks you definitely want the WW > kayak and nothing else will come close. If open canoes use the river a sea > kayak should have no serious problems (except I would rather not scrape them > down the shallow riffles at low water). Dan wrote: Wow. You are either kidding (and inadvertently left off the smiley face) or are living in the past when it comes to solo whitewater canoes. Do you really mean to say that if you can run a Class V, boulder-choked steep creek in an OC-1 (as is done quite frequently) then you should be able to do the same in a sea kayak? I don't think so. Highly rockered canoes that are 8 to 11 feet long have distinct handling advantages over sea kayaks in such circumstances. There has been considerable convergence between hull designs for whitewater kayaks and whitewater canoes in recent years (as was recently pointed out in an excellent article written by one of the designers on this list). The same cannot be said for sea kayaks. :-) Dan Hagen I'll admit to both being out of date on WW gear and was not paying any attention to solo open canoes at all. I was speaking of two person open canoes (I was more worried about distinguishing them from closed WW canoes and didn't consider solos when I wrote the above so failed to specifically exclude them as well as the closed canoes--and I was unaware that some Solos are down to only 8 feet long now--can I call an 8' Kiwi a sea kayak?). Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>can I call an 8' Kiwi a sea kayak?). > > Matt Broze Most of us Kiwis are taller than 5ft, but less than 6ft 6in. I haven't heard of an 8 footer, but he would be better called a basketball player than a sea kayak <g> The actual kiwi is a flightless bird, nocturnal, not a waterfowl, and will possibly be extinct in another fifty years or so. Not a great brand name for a kayak. Allan Singleton Hamilton NZ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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