I was recently talking with a fellow kayaker about an unfortunate incident that happened in our local waters last year involving some motorboaters. As it is not an unusual development and therefore one that a paddler could easily run across, I want to share with you the specific problem and a solution suggested by one kayak guru/instructor as well as to get any inputs. The incident here happened in the mooring field just south of the 79th St Boat Marina on the Manhattan shoreline of the Hudson River. Two fellows in a small motorized dinghy were going out to a moored vessel (either they owned it or were thinking of buying it). Their dinghy flipped for some reason (the water is relatively shallow there and boat wakes stack up viciously) and they were both in the water suddenly. The reports vary, some saying that their PFDs slipped off or they weren't wearing them, but whatever the case they were in the water without PFDs on and were non-swimmers. They panicked. I don't know whether the small motorized dinghy sank or drifted away but they did not seem to be able to hang on to it for support. All of this was watched by horrified onlookers on the park promenade that paralleled the mooring field who were frantically calling on their cell phones and running to the marina office for help. They were within 100 feet or so of that promenade. The two fellows drowned within a few minutes before help could arrive. Here is where my kayaker friend comes in. He normally paddles those same waters and entered the area about an hour after the incident happened. However, he could have just as easily been right on the scene when it was occuring...an extra coffee or reading of another section of the NY Times probably made the difference of his being or not being there as the accident was unfolding. He wondered what would have been his best course of action in trying to deal with 2 non-PFDed panicking people in the water and who did not know how to swim. A few weeks later, he asked an instructor for suggestions. The advice was the following which I am repeating secondhand and therefore do not wish to name the instructor in case I got it wrong (and remember this deals with non PFDed non swimmers in panic and you are alone): Do not get close to the panicky fellows in the water. They will only pull you over. While making certain that you are not near them, tip over your kayak and fall out. Keeping the kayak between you and them, push it close to them for them to grab on to. Whistle away or use your VHF radio to summon more help. Keep the overturned kayak between you and them, while talking calmly to assure them that help is on the way and that hanging on will keep them afloat. It sounds like one workable scenario to me. And I would like to know what others think about it? Has any one been in such a predicament? Obviously lots of things can affect the scene. If the seas are rough. If you have extra flotation to toss them. Lots of ifs. This differs from scenaarios in which other people might be in the water. If fellow paddlers are in the water and wearing PFDs as they should, you can try rescues to get them back into their boats or they can hang on to your bow, whatever. Same with any swimmers you might be escorting in a swim race who get cramps or stung by jellyfish, whatever. They are less likely to be panicky and you can have them hang on to your bow while you call for help. (an unconscious swimmer is a different scenario). Sorry for this being so long but I wanted to lay it all out fully. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
ralph diaz wrote: > > He wondered what would have been his best course of action in trying to > deal with 2 non-PFDed panicking people in the water and who did not know > how to swim...... > Do not get close to the panicky fellows in the water. They will only > pull you over. I would amend this to "Do not let them grab your cockpit, lest they pull you over." But I can give one person my bow and still keep him 8 feet away from me. If he tries to climb up, backpaddle. As someone has already observed, giving someone your bow or stern (I prefer bow, so I can keep an eye on them) is standard practice in WW rescues. Now they're only 4 feet away (used to be 6 in the old days), but I've never had a problem doing it. I'm not above whacking someone with a paddle if necessary, either. > > While making certain that you are not near them, tip over your kayak and > fall out. Rescue Rule Number One states "Do not create another victim." Purposely exiting violates this rule. IMO, exiting in this situation is dumb. The other suggestions of tossing out flotation are good ones. I'm not sure I'd offer my PFD, though. Steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
1> Two fellows in a small motorized dinghy were going out to a moored vessel 2> Their dinghy flipped for some reason (the water is relatively shallow there and boat wakes stack up viciously) and they were both in the water suddenly. 3> I don't know whether the small motorized dinghy sank or drifted away but they did not seem to be able to hang on to it for support. perhaps 1: If the fellows are Down stream of the moored vessel, go to it and somehow use that boat or floatation stuff on it to help them. If the fellows are Up stream of the vessel, try to get them to drift toward the vessel. ========= perhaps 2: Everyone in NY has flares? there is lots of boat traffic? shoot your flares. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Several people mentioned being prepared to whack the swimmer (er, non-swimmer) with a paddle if they become a problem. I had thought about this, but hesitated to say it. I almost hate to do this, but . . . I think we all need to realize that there can be issues of liability in a situation like this. It would take a dissertation to go through all the issues, and the rules differ from one jurisdiction to another. Many states have passed variations on the "Good Samaritan Law" that provide *some* degree of protection against liability. But the rules vary, and some jurisdictions may not have such a statute at all. Generally speaking, I think it's probably safe to say that if you undertake to aid a person in danger, and you end up in some way contributing to that person's danger (eg, by hitting them with a paddle), and they die, you *could* be held liable. Liability for a wrongful death can be, well, expensive. Most likely, in the scenarios described here, you would have adequate defenses -- eg, you attempted to help, but the panicked victim attacked or threatened your safety, and you had no choice but to defend yourself. But it could be, as they say, a "question for the trier of facts" whether you "acted reasonably under the circumstances." It's a litigious world out there. As Johnny Cochran said, "Anyone with $200 can file a lawsuit." Judges aren't always smart and often just don't give a damn. And juries are unpredictable. I don't have any wise conclusions about this. I just raise it as a little reminder that in this day and age, unfortunately, people who have good intentions can end up in big trouble. Sorry. Mark It's a shame that *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Last winter my wife and I were paddling a local bay and were in the widest part, but still not that far from either shore. Beautiful day, warm, water a little cold, but not bad. We were paddling past two SOT's; one double and one single. The double had two women on it in bathing suits and the single was their male companion in shorts and T shirt. Non had PFD's with them, let alone on. Just as I past them I heard a noise and lots of commotion. I turned around to see the guy in the water in total panic. The ladies yelled that he couldn't swim. That was obvious as he went under and resurfaced a couple of times. No time to blow up a paddle float or even take off my own PFD, which I wouldn't do, and throw it to him. I turned around and got ahold of the upside down SOT and shoved it to him. He grabbed it from the side, but kept slipping off. As quick as a flash he would jump on the SOT and slide off as he worked his way around the SOT. Before I knew it he grabbed my boat. I pushed him away with the paddle and STERNLY told him to hold on to the end of his boat and calm down. As soon as he was calm we would get him back into his boat with no problems. If he didn't follow my instructions and so much as touched my boat I would be forced to smack him or we would both end up in the water and he wouldn't get out until I was out. That seemed to get his attention and he concentrated on holding onto the grab loop at the end of his boat. I made sure it was the opposite end from me. Once calm I was able to have him hold onto my bow while I flipped his boat and then talked him back in. He was happy to be out of the water. Could he have made it some other way. Probably. I didn't do anything exceptional in my mind. The weather was great and the water conditions calm, but to that non swimmer he might as well have been in six foot swells and breaking waves way off shore. Rather my decision to fend him off initially with my paddle helped him regain his composure I am not sure. I am sure that I would have smacked him if he tried to grab my boat. I figured that out of the boat I would be at risk of this guy grabbing me and standing on my head to keep his above the water. A risk that I am not willing to take. If we subject ourselves to civil liability for an attempted and failed rescue is one thing. I don't know if we would or wouldn't. I could live with the fact that I had honestly given it my best shot in the face of litigation or even someone second guessing my actions. The thought of not trying and/or being criminally negligent for not rendering aid is a whole other matter of conscience that I would rather not have to live with for the rest of my life. Sometimes in the heat of the moment we have to decide. If we decide to take action then take it all the way - not in a half hearted manner! We can't guarantee the results we strove for. Even those who make their living at it(EMS,etc.) do their best and sometimes fail. What would the end result be if we did nothing but sat back and watched? Hopefully it isn't from fear of getting involved. What would we want someone to do for us or one of our friends or loved ones in the same circumstances? Go for it! Fred (Formerly Dust Off 18; US Army) At 05:58 PM 8/17/2000 -0400, Sailboat Restorations, Inc. wrote: >Several people mentioned being prepared to whack the swimmer (er, >non-swimmer) with a paddle if they become a problem. I had thought about >this, but hesitated to say it. > >I don't have any wise conclusions about this. I just raise it as a little >reminder that in this day and age, unfortunately, people who have good >intentions can end up in big trouble. Sorry. > >Mark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Fred wrote: [ ] > The thought of not > trying and/or being criminally negligent for not rendering aid is a whole > other matter of conscience that I would rather not have to live with for > the rest of my life. [ ] As far as I know, there is no such thing as criminal liability for not rendering aid to a person in danger. I remember my old torts professor's explanation: "Let's say you are walking by a swimming pool, and there is a person in the pool drowning. They are yelling for help, only a few feet from the edge. There is a rescue float laying on the ground, just next to the pool near the drowning person. You are walking right past the float. All you have to do is kick the float in as you walk past, and the victim will survive. If you don't kick the float in, the victim will die. Do you have an obligation to kick the float in?" The answer, of course, was "no." Now, before everyone jumps on me -- I don't make these stupid rules. I'm just telling you what they are. Also, please note that (a) I am talking about the US here (other nations are different) and (b) there are a few exceptions, even in the US (I believe Vermont has a rule requiring you to aid a victim if it involves no risk to yourself; the penalties are minor). I think it's important to understand these rules, particularly under the type of circumstance we have been discussing. As someone else said, it should be an individual's decision whether and how to get involved. That's what the law says, in most jurisdictions, as well. Mark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, 17 Aug 2000, ralph diaz wrote: [snip]> > Do not get close to the panicky fellows in the water. They will only > pull you over. agreed, in this scenerio > While making certain that you are not near them, tip over your kayak and > fall out. seperating from my boat does NOT sound like a good idea... since i come from a river running background, i always carry a throw rope [even in our fishing boat on a lake!!] this would probably be the only way i would consider trying to rescue two people at a time ... i may even paddle around them with the rope deployed, so as to encirle them... > Sorry for this being so long but I wanted to lay it all out fully. > > ralph diaz mine wasn't any shorter, and it makes folks think... i wrote about a similar [sort of] incident on a trip we took a few years ago. we were on an unfamiliar river, and had many swimmers on this trip. when my daughter's friend went over in a canoe, jessica paddled over to her friend to help. the friend reached across the coming of the kayak, and then the kayak had to be rescued [jess & friend swam to shore] all ended ok, thank god, but even her pfd'd swimmer type friend panicked when her boat over turned... you never quite know how people will react under pressure... and you never know what will cause people to FEEL pressure in the first place. mark -- #-canoeist[at]dotzen[dot]org------------------------------------------- mark zen o, o__ o_/| o_. po box 474 </ [\/ [__| [__\ ft. lupton, co 80621-0474 (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') #~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~ http://www.dotzen.org/paddler [index to club websites i administer] ---- A smooth sea never made a skillful mariner. -- English Proverb *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dear Ralph: After reading your scenario and the thoughts of the others that followed, I thought I'd add another. There are already two victoms and a third is definately not needed, so I'll start with what I would not do. I would not exit my kayak. I would not remove my own PFD. I would not manouver my kayak within their grasp. I do carry a throw rope which conditions permitting I would attach to the paddle float which is on my rear deck. Possibly manouvering around them at a distance. I would also use my VHF radio but would realize that any additional help that would bring would probably arrive too late. If I was successful in getting them on the rope/paddle float I would paddle towards shore, then exit the kayak and pull them ashore. Lee *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Shawn wrote: >> Do not allow the victim to do anything you don't tell them to. You must >> maintain that you are still the authority figure. Once you give up the air >> of authority, you're toast. >> "Fred T, CA Kayaker" wrote: > That is the absolute truth! LedJube_at_aol.com wrote: > I just love it when you talk tough like that! ;-) This theorem is somewhat universal--it applies to dogs, children, spouses, and co-workers as well as drowning victims. Less so with dogs and children, but it's still applicable. I learned this the hard way a few years ago as a University Orientation leader. I was too chummy with my first group of students and they ran all over me. They drank, they stayed out all night, they disturbed others' sleep. It proved to be excellent training for their freshman year. I didn't make that mistake again! The consequences of being less than authoritative with a panicky capsize victim would be much more severe. Shawn Who is waiting for my wife to give up her air of authority so I can pretend to be boss! *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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