I can't believe some of the responses to this thread. From people who train themselves to handle a water emergency, who roll their boats upside down for fun, who you would assume are at home in the water and prepared for it by wearing a PFD and proper clothing. I would not hesitate...I would get out of the boat and push it to them. Will this make me another victim? Yeah maybe. But that would hurt a lot less then watching a father and son out for an afternoon sail or a couple of 10 year old kids who stole the family canoe disappear while I was sitting in a floating boat, blowing up my paddle float and trying to talk them into being calm. dave who likes to sleep at night *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> From: David Seales <aieae_at_ntplx.com> > I can't believe some of the responses to this thread. From people who train > themselves to handle a water emergency, who roll their boats upside down > for fun, who you would assume are at home in the water and prepared for it > by wearing a PFD and proper clothing. I would not hesitate...I would get Rather judgemental, wouldn't you say? Since no one, not even Ralph who describes the event, was present, then we all interpret the event in our own way compared to our own experiences with our own visual imagery. Ralph described conditions that were choppy due to being shallow. My first experiences with sea kayaking came from the Texas gulf coast where the water is shallow compared to the west coast and big chop could happen fast and be pretty intimidating. I think those that wrote that you have no idea what you will do for sure until face-to-face with the situation are right on target. The two fellows that panicked and took off and left me behind when severe weather conditions suddenly exploded also never thought they would leave an individual in distress behind. I was lucky. I made it. So, I'd say you should come down from that high horse and remember that folks react to situations in different ways... what's best for themselves and the situation being discussed here is pretty much left to the imagination since none of us were actual witnesses to the event. I don't have a problem with people making the wise decision to not cause more casualties by putting themeslves at risk, possibly creating additional victims meaning more risk to rescue personnel. Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I have to agree with Dave. I would find inaction dishonorable. It would be impossible to live with the scenario he descibed. Better death with honor. Better still to wait until they are too weak to fight then keep them (and me) alive. And everyone can live to enjot another day. Jed In a message dated 8/18/00 4:08:04 AM, aieae_at_ntplx.com writes: << I can't believe some of the responses to this thread. From people who train themselves to handle a water emergency, who roll their boats upside down for fun, who you would assume are at home in the water and prepared for it by wearing a PFD and proper clothing. I would not hesitate...I would get out of the boat and push it to them. Will this make me another victim? Yeah maybe. But that would hurt a lot less then watching a father and son out for an afternoon sail or a couple of 10 year old kids who stole the family canoe disappear while I was sitting in a floating boat, blowing up my paddle float and trying to talk them into being calm. >> *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 8/18/00 4:43:26 AM, jackie_at_intelenet.net writes: << Rather judgemental, wouldn't you say? Since no one, not even Ralph who describes the event, was present, then we all interpret the event in our own way compared to our own experiences with our own visual imagery. >> I believe we're talking scenarios here. Not a specific example. No one is being critisized for inaction. Dave was just voicing his opinion. Is strong moral conviction considered judgemental in these pc days?. << I think those that wrote that you have no idea what you will do for sure until face-to-face with the situation are right on target. >> Agreed, but Ralph's post solicited opinions regarding possible actions. So that's what thirty other posts have done, offered their opinion. What makes Dave's opinion so offensive? << So, I'd say you should come down from that high horse and remember that folks react to situations in different ways... what's best for themselves and the situation being discussed here is pretty much left to the imagination since none of us were actual witnesses to the event. >> I didn't read the same "holier than thou" attitude that you did in his post. << I don't have a problem with people making the wise decision to not cause more casualties by putting themeslves at risk, possibly creating additional victims meaning more risk to rescue personnel. >> This was a harbor, in chop, not in the middle of a storm. The risk to rescue personnel isn't the issue since they are not present in this scenario. Why does this one opinion trouble you so much? I didn't hear him condem other peoples solutions. Me thinks the lady doth protest too much. Jed *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: LedJube_at_aol.com > > In a message dated 8/18/00 4:43:26 AM, jackie_at_intelenet.net writes: > > << Rather judgemental, wouldn't you say? Since no one, not even Ralph who > describes the event, was present, then we all interpret the event in our > own way compared to our own experiences with our own visual imagery. >> > > I believe we're talking scenarios here. Not a specific example. No one is > being critisized for inaction. Dave was just voicing his opinion. Is strong > moral conviction considered judgemental in these pc days?. Yes, Dave was being critical of how others described their reaction to the situation. I don't see how you missed it. > << I think those that wrote that you have no idea what you will do for > sure until face-to-face with the situation are right on target. >> > > Agreed, but Ralph's post solicited opinions regarding possible actions. > So that's what thirty other posts have done, offered their opinion. What > makes Dave's opinion so offensive? Dave passed judgement on how others described they way in which *they* would handle a similar situation which he *thinks* would be different than his own. > << I don't have a problem with people making the wise decision to not > cause > more casualties by putting themeslves at risk, possibly creating additional > victims meaning more risk to rescue personnel. >> > > This was a harbor, in chop, not in the middle of a storm. The risk to > rescue personnel isn't the issue since they are not present in this scenario. This is disengenuous. My comment suggests possibilities of becoming a victim if you don't know what you are doing. Rescue personnel are generally part of any rescue scenario. Above you stated we were talking scenarios and not specific situations. Which is it? I stated because those that described their particular reaction were not actually witnesses to the scene and were interpreting events prejudiced by their own experiences could be interpreting something different than Dave. I believe his was a rush to judgement on their discussion of what they might or might not do. > Why does this one opinion trouble you so much? I didn't hear him condem other > peoples solutions. Me thinks the lady doth protest too much. And your point is? It would appear you are implying something here. I think you need to go back and re-read his message. His beginning sentence as well as his signature suggests otherwise, imo. Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
LedJube_at_aol.com wrote: << Me thinks the lady doth protest too much. >> bob_at_intelenet.net writes: << You, sir, have gone too far. You are implying by this statement that Jackie has in fact abandoned other people in possibly mortal danger, and objected to Dave Seal's posting only to justify her own actions. This is incredibly insulting, and I suggest you apologize at once. If this was not what you intended to imply, I suggest you reconsider exactly what it means to "protest too much". >> Mr Myers It is not I, Sir, who has insulted Jackie, but rather you in your rush to judgement regarding my post. An innocent post asking why Jackie was so struck by David's post would never insult such a woman. Your response totally confuses me and is significantly in error. I found David's post struck a note in my heart, but after reading Jackie's response I can understand the tone that she must have read in David's post and to that end I do appologize. I do not however appologize to using the phase "..doth protest too much". David offered a honest opinion regarding a solution to the scenario as he described it. My comment was written and intended in the denotation of the words used. It was a very thinly veiled attempt to say that I felt Jackie was overly strong in her handling of David's post. That I think a dicussion on his scenario would have served us all. Disagreement, in a forum like this, adds a depth of richness to the dicussion and to PaddleWise in general. Quelching differing opinions cheapens both. << You are implying by this statement that Jackie has in fact abandoned other people in possibly mortal danger, and objected to Dave Seal's posting only to justify her own actions. >> The english language is a wonderful thing, so rich and concise. So how is God's name, did you deduce this understanding from my words? Nevermind, don't tell me, I haven't the inclination to waste any more time to correct your lack of understanding on this. You, sir are welcome to your opinion of me and of my motives. It matters not. Isn't America great? Jed Luby *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This has been a very interesting and instructive thread, but in the last day it's degenerating into an exchange of hurt feelings. Can we let these go and get on with things - maybe on to other topics too? Bill Hansen Ithaca NY *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>I can't believe some of the responses to this thread. From people who train >themselves to handle a water emergency, who roll their boats upside down >for fun, who you would assume are at home in the water and prepared for it >by wearing a PFD and proper clothing. I would not hesitate... I fit those criteria, and I Would hesitate! I know that I am competent. I know also that I cannot assume competence in the victims... And I also know enough to take my level of competence into account as to how I make the decision. Yes, I'm good, but does that by itself compromise my objectivity regarding the situation? The word Before Reach, Throw, and Go is Survey! It is not just the scene but also the resources... including yourself. Joe P. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, 17 Aug 2000, David Seales wrote: > I can't believe some of the responses to this thread. From people who train > themselves to handle a water emergency, who roll their boats upside down > for fun, who you would assume are at home in the water and prepared for it > by wearing a PFD and proper clothing. I would not hesitate...I would get > out of the boat and push it to them. Will this make me another victim? Yeah > maybe. In the original scenario there were 2 panicked victims in the water. I'm an avid roller, race kayaks, swim 3 to 4 miles a week, and former lifeguard. I'm still not getting near 2 panicked swimmers until they calm down. While they are panicked I would make them chase my boat. When BOTH calm down I might let them touch the boat, until then I'm making them chase me. The rescue scenario changes when both are no longer panicking. As long as one is panicking they are a danger to my safety. > But that would hurt a lot less then watching a father and son out > for an afternoon sail or a couple of 10 year old kids who stole the family > canoe disappear while I was sitting in a floating boat, blowing up my > paddle float and trying to talk them into being calm. I would do my damnedest to help them, but I'm still not putting myself into any potentially lethal danger that I don't know how to get out of. Mark Lane pointed out potential liablity for whacking a person with a paddle. If a panicked person is touching me or my boat, putting me in danger, and doesn't respond to my requests, and actions, to let go I'm going to risk the lawsuit. kirk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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